Planner of 9/11 attacks waterboarded 183 times-NYT

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: geno

Originally posted by: ericlp
183 times? Wouldn't you think that's a bit excessive? How much more is he gonna talk after the tenth time?

This isn't Hollywood. You don't repeat the process three times then all of a sudden they crack and pour out every ounce of info.

Or in this case, six times per day. Torture doesn't work, it's the fear of torture that get results.

For those talking about American POWs, I imagine they were viewed by their captors in much the same way we view KSM.

Personally, I would have locked this guy in a dark room with a VCR and TV. I would have them forced him to watch family videos of people who died on 9/11 for the rest of his life, while receiving the bare minimum of sustenance needed to keep him alive.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Cheney is calling out the Messiah.. if you are going to release the memos then release the results.. Lets imagine that the results of some of the waterboarding was that an attempt on Obama's life may have been averted. THEN what would the liberals do?

Does your name mean you are unafraid of any evil, or that any evil is acceptable?

I'd respond the same exact way. Then again, I never hoped Bush would be assassinated either, so maybe I'm not the norm. I'd slam Obama for condoning torture.

The problem with torture isn't so much doing it, it's what others think of it. Not just our allies, but our enemies as well. It is used as a recruiting tool for how evil the "Great Satan" is. Now, I'm sure if they didn't have that, they would use something else.

I know many argue that it doesn't matter what our allies think, but that is just naive American idiocy. Having the support of the world gives us a good public image, but it also gives us logistical and military support that we desperately need. The military is stretched extremely thin. If we had some moral standing with the world, perhaps it wouldn't be quite so bad.

The reason this shit freaks me out is because the government could do it to any of us. Given the powers Congress authorized after 9/11, any of us could be labeled a domestic terrorist, set off to some island secretly, and tortured for years without anyone know what happened to us. No public evidence of guilt or innocence. For any of you who have read 1984, this should freak you the hell out.

The other issue I have with torture? There are other ways of getting results that are less morally detestable.

There are stories about American POWs in Korea who were treated well, (this wasn't the norm) and as a result, they turned on their fellow POWs and worked with the Koreans. They broke down the comradeship that existed between the soldiers and forced them to turn on each other. This ended up doing more damage than torture, since torture as a tendency to unite people against you (which is what happened to the Vietnamese with American POWs in the Vietnam War).

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

It's disgusting the way some of you excuse this.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

Where is it mentioned that breaking bones is okay in JS80's post?

We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable. Do we want to do this at the drop of a hat? No. But I'm not going to worry about someone who murdered 3000 people and beheaded Daniel Pearl because his sleep cycle is interupted or he might think he's drowning. It's actually better treatment than he deserves.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

Where is it mentioned that breaking bones is okay in JS80's post?

We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable. Do we want to do this at the drop of a hat? No. But I'm not going to worry about someone who murdered 3000 people and beheaded Daniel Pearl because his sleep cycle is interupted or he might think he's drowning. It's actually better treatment than he deserves.

It's amazing to me what lengths people will go to in order to say waterboarding is not torture. I suggest you go read Christopher Hitchens' article on the subject. He's as big a supporter of the 'War on Terror' as you will find in this world, and after undergoing waterboarding himself he wrote an article called "Believe me, it's torture."

EDIT: My favorite line from the article is this:

I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: ?If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.? Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

Where is it mentioned that breaking bones is okay in JS80's post?

We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable. Do we want to do this at the drop of a hat? No. But I'm not going to worry about someone who murdered 3000 people and beheaded Daniel Pearl because his sleep cycle is interupted or he might think he's drowning. It's actually better treatment than he deserves.

The Reason we Waterboard our troops in the Sere program is to give them a taste of the Torturing methods that could be used against them if they are captured. It helps metally Toughen them. Oh and they can Tap out and its not quite the same because, ultimately, they dont have the same fear, the same unkown. They know that it is controlled in the back of their head, They Know that some Mad Man isnt going to do this to them 182 more times

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable.

If the waterboardee yells stop, does the waterboarder have to stop?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

Where is it mentioned that breaking bones is okay in JS80's post?

We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable. Do we want to do this at the drop of a hat? No. But I'm not going to worry about someone who murdered 3000 people and beheaded Daniel Pearl because his sleep cycle is interupted or he might think he's drowning. It's actually better treatment than he deserves.

A) Read the Constitution again and what our founding fathers stood for.
B) Read how suffocation kills cells in the body.
C) Read up on other interrogation techniques that are actually scientifically effective.

Time for you to hit the books, why are you still reading this post?

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: jonks
People like you run around calling Obama a communist for raising taxes 3%, meaning it as a pejorative, and then turn around and criticize fellow Americans who morally object to pursuing tactics identical to communist China. Hypocrisy isn't a big enough word to describe people like you. Maybe Hippocrisy.

Pretty funny that the article you posted has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
Well I'm sure you don't mind when US Soldiers are tortured. Those terrorists are just 'getting shit done'

Whether or not you or I care about them getting tortured (and of course I care) is irrelevant. If captured, they are likely to be interrogated/tortured REGARDLESS of our moral position / election not to torture. And they know that too. This is the point I think some of you are missing. IMO, it's highly beneficial to us as a nation to make our enemies think we MIGHT interrogate them harshly so they think twice about messing with us in the first place.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

Where is it mentioned that breaking bones is okay in JS80's post?

We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable. Do we want to do this at the drop of a hat? No. But I'm not going to worry about someone who murdered 3000 people and beheaded Daniel Pearl because his sleep cycle is interupted or he might think he's drowning. It's actually better treatment than he deserves.

It's amazing to me what lengths people will go to in order to say waterboarding is not torture. I suggest you go read Christopher Hitchens' article on the subject. He's as big a supporter of the 'War on Terror' as you will find in this world, and after undergoing waterboarding himself he wrote an article called "Believe me, it's torture."

EDIT: My favorite line from the article is this:

I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: ?If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.? Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.

Fair enough. If we define it as torture then what can we do to get information to save lives or protect the U.S.? Will just asking him questions work? More than likely not. Weather or not KSM cracked quickly or tried to be martyred is neither here or there--he talked and we got some good intel and some that didn't work--as stated in the article. Again like I said, it shouldn't be used just for the sake of using it--KSM was an extreme situation in that it needed to be done. He was prepared for the quesitoning and was willing(though apparently not) to die.

Like Hitch says in the article:

When contrasted to actual torture, waterboarding is more like foreplay. No thumbscrew, no pincers, no electrodes, no rack. Can one say this of those who have been captured by the tormentors and murderers of (say) Daniel Pearl? On this analysis, any call to indict the United States for torture is therefore a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down. I myself do not trust anybody who does not clearly understand this viewpoint.

On a side note: Did Hitch believe in God afterward?

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

Where is it mentioned that breaking bones is okay in JS80's post?

We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable. Do we want to do this at the drop of a hat? No. But I'm not going to worry about someone who murdered 3000 people and beheaded Daniel Pearl because his sleep cycle is interupted or he might think he's drowning. It's actually better treatment than he deserves.

A) Read the Constitution again and what our founding fathers stood for.
B) Read how suffocation kills cells in the body.
C) Read up on other interrogation techniques that are actually scientifically effective.

Time for you to hit the books, why are you still reading this post?

I was reading the article that Esk linked actually.

A) Okay, were does KSM get constitutional protection?
B) Good thing my medical training taught me that.
C) But then those could be classified as torture as well, right? Linkage. (at work and can't do too much searching around.


Edit: For some deletion.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Fair enough. If we define it as torture then what can we do to get information to save lives or protect the U.S.? Will just asking him questions work? More than likely not. Weather or not KSM cracked quickly or tried to be martyred is neither here or there--he talked and we got some good intel and some that didn't work--as stated in the article. Again like I said, it shouldn't be used just for the sake of using it--KSM was an extreme situation in that it needed to be done. He was prepared for the quesitoning and was willing(though apparently not) to die.

Like Hitch says in the article:

When contrasted to actual torture, waterboarding is more like foreplay. No thumbscrew, no pincers, no electrodes, no rack. Can one say this of those who have been captured by the tormentors and murderers of (say) Daniel Pearl? On this analysis, any call to indict the United States for torture is therefore a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down. I myself do not trust anybody who does not clearly understand this viewpoint.

On a side note: Did Hitch believe in God afterward?

We're successfully interrogated people for quite a long time without the waterboard, I see no reason why we can't continue to do so.

I actually largely disagree with our good friend Christopher on much of the subject, I just linked it because he's someone who went through it firsthand and so his experience on it is valuable. I think his paragraph that you quoted is incredibly unpersuasive. I can indict America just fine for torturing people and not be equating us with Al-Qaeda. Sure some types of torture are worse than other types, but it doesn't change the fact that they are both torture. From a morality standpoint I think Al-Qaeda was a much worse entity than the Bush Administration could ever hope to be, it doesn't mean that they both weren't scumbags.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Genx87
left him uncomfortable

Key words there. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves you extremely uncomfortable and you still have your fingernails, toes, ears, tongue, eyeballs, etc.

So breaking every bone in your body isn't torture then either? Because you are just "uncomfortable" with a bunch of broken bones, and bones can heal?

I mean really, the stupidity of people trying to defend this stuff is just absurd.

Where is it mentioned that breaking bones is okay in JS80's post?

We waterboard our own special forces personel as well as fighter pilots. It's part of the training. Waterboarding is not painful, just really uncomfortable. Do we want to do this at the drop of a hat? No. But I'm not going to worry about someone who murdered 3000 people and beheaded Daniel Pearl because his sleep cycle is interupted or he might think he's drowning. It's actually better treatment than he deserves.

My point, which flew over your head, is that he is saying "being uncomfortable" isn't torture. So anything that only makes you uncomfortable is OK.

Get the point? Bush redefined torture to things only causing permanent harm, so something like breaking every bone in someone's body would be legal in TLC/Bush's bizarro world. Google for the quote where Yoo stated that crushing someones testicles would be allowable under his "redefinition" of the law.

Have you been waterboarded by someone who doesn't like you? If not, then you really can't talk about it, can you?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

So to all of you torture apologists that say this is good and legal, and really actually works.

Why aren't you out trying to allow the FBI/police to waterboard suspects? I mean you try and argue that this is legal, and it "saves lives".

Imagine how many lives could be saved by locking up all those murders and rapists if you waterboarded them.

Why not that?

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: whylaff

Originally posted by: Craig234

The man is an enemy and a threat if free, not a monster to dehumanize and torture. We did not torture enemies in WWII who posed a more immediate threat - for good reason.

We did this instead

We killed thousands of guam and phillipenes civilians too.

As in the real genocide deal... Make a village dig their own graves, line them up and shoot them, the next village buries them and digs their own graves.... ad nauseum.

 

[Xellos2099]

Hmm, terrorists do not torture our soldiers, they just cut their head off and kill them.

 

[thegimp03]

IMO he deserved it. Not from a revenge standpoint, but because he obviously had information that would help the U.S. track down the people involved and deal with them.

Anybody taking the "moral high ground" on this is just kidding themselves.

 

[NetGuySC]

Don't our troops experience water boarding during certain types of training?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: EXman

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: jonks
Yeah, lets sacrifice our moral high ground to satisfy a desire for revenge. Terrific.

Here's a clue...no one gives a shit about our moral high ground. That's your own problem. Countries do/should look out for their own best interests, and the U.S. is no different in that regard. It's not about revenge, it's about not getting walked on based on some bullshit ideology that we're "above" it because we're the great perfect USA. Give me an effin break! And cry me a damn river for some worthless POS terrorist.

Now this guy gets it!!!!

you need to post more.

What exactly does he get, that the Geneva Conventions and war crimes exist for no reason? That every country should be able to engage in the most dispicable behavior possible should they so choose so long as they claim it's in their best interest?

You two don't get it. But Shep Smith does get it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEtFMj6ZiHM

America doesn't torture. You two stand against everything this country values. If you sacrifice your values to protect your values, then they're not values.
As to the POS terrorist, I guess you think accused child molesters and other sorts shouldn't even get lawyers or trials either right? There's a video of a bankrobber shooting a teller and the cops arrest him, just execute him on the spot, right? Why give a trial to the POS? He's obviously guilty and worthless as a person.

A society is not judged by how it treats the best of men, but by how it treats the worst.

 

[Xellos2099]

For the people who claim they are willing to let the country's people die if they choose the moral high ground, you do not understand what exactly is a nation. A nation rule and policy is not that great, the most important IS its citizen. The people are the true treasure of a great nation thus so, need to do what have to be done to save as many of its citizen as possible.

 

[trooper11]

Originally posted by: jonks

You two don't get it. Shep Smith does get it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEtFMj6ZiHM

America doesn't torture. You two stand against everything this country values. If you sacrifice your values to protect your values, then they're not values.

As to the POS terrorist, I guess you think accused child molesters and other sorts shouldn't even get lawyers or trials either right? There's a video of a bankrobber shooting a teller and the cops arrest him, just execute him on the spot, right? Why give a trial to the POS? He's obviously guilty and worthless as a person.

A society is not judged by how it treats the best of men, but by how it treats the worst.

My problem with this whole issue is that even if there are guidelines, there is no agreement on what is torture and what isnt. You want to take waterboarding off the table, thats fine, so is that the top and anything that falls below in a certain defined level of ''harm'' for the prisoner is ok?

I just cant reconcile the line. If waterboarding is torture (which there are those that say definitely yes, others that say no), and if I accept that, then there are other tactics that interragators use that I should also be against. I would think even the founders would have a tough time defining the line.

I also wonder if we should weigh how this puts our people at a disadvantage when trying to get the information we need. even if you say a certain method is wrong, sometimes the fear of its use is enough.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
For the people who claim they are willing to let the country's people die if they choose the moral high ground, you do not understand what exactly is a nation. A nation rule and policy is not that great, the most important IS its citizen. The people are the true treasure of a great nation thus so, need to do what have to be done to save as many of its citizen as possible.

Actually what is frequently cited as one of the relatively unique and enduring aspects of American society is our respect for the rule of law. When the Supreme Court tells the President to do something, even though they have no way of enforcing their decision, the President does it. It's an amazing aspect of our society that is all too rarely repeated around the world.

It's bigger than any one of us, and it's one of the biggest reasons why our country is great.