Tough measures for tough people. These idiots want to blow up our stuff, surprise there are consequences.
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
- Mar 8, 2003
- 38,416
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I agree that I would rather be waterboarded than handed over to the NVA. But, waterboarding is torture, albeit a mild form of torture. That being said, I think RD sums it up nicely (assuming the fellow is guilty of planning it):
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
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183 waterboardings...in your opinion, how many were done LONG after he was able to provide any useful information?
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
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Doc, we don't know. I have not read the memos and don't know over what time period the waterboardings were done etc etc.
However, keep in mind that KSM was involved in a secret organization and every bit of information we got out of him was probably useful. In fact, we did not even know that KSM was involved in the 9-11 planning until one of the other guys we waterboarded came out and told us that KSM was in fact the main planner. Prior to that we thought someone else had planned and executed the attack.
However, keep in mind that KSM was involved in a secret organization and every bit of information we got out of him was probably useful. In fact, we did not even know that KSM was involved in the 9-11 planning until one of the other guys we waterboarded came out and told us that KSM was in fact the main planner. Prior to that we thought someone else had planned and executed the attack.
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or maybe it *does* work and that's why they kept at it
The only thing I know is I will never trust the New York Times to provide an unbiased report on this subject.
That's because you are an irrational ignoramus. Sorry, but that's the case. You have a bias that is more important to you than the issue of torture by your country. It's sick.
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
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I suggest you read some history books.
do not read what they force feed you in school. read some other books. really you would be amazed what teh US has done in the past and not just in times of war.
edit: don't take this as a knock against teh US just think people who look at the past with rose colored glasses do more harm then they think.
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or maybe it *does* work and that's why they kept at it
The only thing I know is I will never trust the New York Times to provide an unbiased report on this subject.
whatever makes you sleep better at night
Do you lie awake at night fretting over it?....try some herbal tea, it can do wonders.
I don't know, did a German lie awake at night fretting over what was happening to the Jews? Your desire to dehumanize anyone - including a mass murdering terrorist - is wrong.
It's quite easy for you to ignore the situation of some stranger somewhere far away being tortured by people you don't know - and that's a flaw in our political system.
Why shouldn't you approve of torture, when there's no price to doing so for you, beyond your own conscience, which means nearly no price?
Every horror in history pretty much has two sides - the victims, and the people like you who could not care less about the horror being done.
You violate the basic moral teachings against revenge, against continuing the cycle of violence. Why not torture our own prisoners ofr punishment? Aren't they 'mnnsters' too?
The man is an enemy and a threat if free, not a monster to dehumanize and torture. We did not torture enemies in WWII who posed a more immediate threat - for good reason.
- Dec 24, 2000
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Yeah but kinda hard to do that 200 times to someone (bamboo under the fingernails).
Ask the Russians who have a solid history of torturing people say that they never got any information from it.
It's not really the Torturing that pisses me off it's more of all these guys had no fair trial. It's all based on assumption that these were the right guys.
It's a real good image for the USA. When ever you stand up at the next event you can feel proud to be an American, I'll be the one sitting in disbelief. This is an UGLY time for the nation. I'm really hoping bush goes to jail for some time for this. I just can't believe that we can sit around and not bring these crimes to justice.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or maybe it *does* work and that's why they kept at it
The only thing I know is I will never trust the New York Times to provide an unbiased report on this subject.
Let's suppose that chopping off a detainee's penis one one-hundredth of an inch at a time with a mini-guillotine works. Does that mean we should do it?
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
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What do you mean "now"? Waterboarding is a torture technique used since the Spanish Inquisition by every dickish regime you can think of. You're telling me if a US soldier was captured in Iran, was shot during his capture, was then kept awake 10 straight days, had his head slammed (lightly!) into boards, then cramped in a coffin in a stress position with non-poisoinous scorpions though they told him they were poisonous, and then waterboarded 20 times, that any person in the US would look at that and say, "oh, well at least they didn't torture him." I don't think so.
Oh and John McCain who knows a thing or three about being tortured today said: "waterboarding is torture, period."
So thanks for your informed opinion and all, but not all opinions are equal.
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or maybe it *does* work and that's why they kept at it
The only thing I know is I will never trust the New York Times to provide an unbiased report on this subject.
Let's suppose that chopping off a detainee's penis one one-hundredth of an inch at a time with a mini-guillotine works. Does that mean we should do it?
depends on who he is and what he knows?
if he had your wife/child held hostage somewhere or
if he knew some kind of terror plot that could save thousands.
then yea i would say chop away
Of course this is a big can of worms, but I would be interested in hearing what people's idea of going too far in matters such as these is.
For those saying that we need to be better then everyone else, setting a better example, what is your definition of going too far? Is it simply using anything that is deemed torture by society at the time, or is there some other criteria? Do you think that people like this should be treated like criminals in this country? This is a really tough question.
Im not even talking about this issue specifically, but Ive seen alot of epople talk about this on both sides of the isle, but never being able to answer that fundamental question.
Regarding the New York Times, for those of you attacking people for not believing everything they say without doing some of their own research, well then thats just a bit naive. Every newspaper, news organization, etc, has bias, some more than others. Its up to you if you want to believe everything from one news source or not (I.E. Fox, New York Times, etc). by looking into the facts whenver possible. Lets nto try to paint any of these news sources as 'above the bias and bs' .
For those saying that we need to be better then everyone else, setting a better example, what is your definition of going too far? Is it simply using anything that is deemed torture by society at the time, or is there some other criteria? Do you think that people like this should be treated like criminals in this country? This is a really tough question.
Im not even talking about this issue specifically, but Ive seen alot of epople talk about this on both sides of the isle, but never being able to answer that fundamental question.
Regarding the New York Times, for those of you attacking people for not believing everything they say without doing some of their own research, well then thats just a bit naive. Every newspaper, news organization, etc, has bias, some more than others. Its up to you if you want to believe everything from one news source or not (I.E. Fox, New York Times, etc). by looking into the facts whenver possible. Lets nto try to paint any of these news sources as 'above the bias and bs' .
So, then *his* wife - since her husband is held hostage somewhere - can take anyone with into on his location into custody and chop them, right?
People in the US admnistration who planned the Contra terrorism against Nicaragua, you support their being taken into secret custody and being chopped, right?
The definition I've adopted is not to use any techniques causing suffering or disability which are designed to disable or overcome the person's ability to resist.
That leaves many options - building sympathy or trust, verbal pressure, threats of incarceration, relatively minor suffering - but short of measures designed to cause so much harm or suffering that the person wants to resist, but is unable to because of the suffering or disability.
This is the problem with too much transparency. The common citizen does not need to know EVERYTHING that is going on, including the techniques that is used to grill people. I say we ban it publicly but don't really enforce the banning when it is used.
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