Piston Ring Repair

[RPD]

I have a '07 Chevy Avalanche, it's 4x4, thus has flex fuel, which means it has the active fuel management. If you are not familiar, Chevy has an issue on this year and probably more with the AFM burning oil.

I've found their service bulletins about possible patches, but what it comes down to is (as I understand it) is they screwed up the machining on the piston rings. As such my truck burns roughly 1 quart of oil every 1,000 miles.

All this is after having my mechanic review the engine to find out about where the oil was going (no leaks) and then taking it to the dealership to have them do an oil consumption test, which involved them doing an oil change and have me come back every 1000 miles to check the dip stick. Initially the dealership said they submitted the results to GM and GM told them my truck was "with in spec".

Not happy with this answer I contacted Chevy direct and after dealing with them the dealership called me back telling me to fix the problem they have to do the piston ring repair and would split the cost with me 45/55, with the 55% on my end. The work is estimated to be about $3800, so my out of pocket is looking to be about $2,090. The amount to do the repair may change after I take it in for a final review for an estimate on the quote, these were just estimates. My mechanic at the onset said the work would cost about $4,000, so it does seem in line.

A little more information, early in the vehicle's life (I bought the truck new and am the only owner) I used Blackstone Lab's for about 3 oil tests. Each test showed a high amount of metal in the oil. I asked them what I should do about it, but they said short of an engine tear down, there wasn't much else to do other than monitor it. The truck has always consumed oil, it has just become much more apparent because I have driven a lot more for work in the last 6 months. When I notified the dealership to do the testing the truck had 60,000 miles on it, but was outside of the 5 year window for the warranty.

I feel this is not a warranty, but quality issue with the truck. I guess that would be up for debate but I am trying to decide if I should:

1) Continue to push GM, after say providing the test reports and emails from Blackstone Labs showing this was an issue during the warranty period; coupled with the fact it is a problem on that year for any engine with AFM, they should pay the full cost to fix it
2) Feel lucky they are willing to pay for almost half of the repair work and get it done
3) Feel bitter they won't pay for it, don't get the repair, continue to add oil and eventually get a new vehicle and never buy anything GM again

The truck is paid in full so not having a car payment is nice. Finally the wife is due for a new car and wants an Acadia, but depending on the fall out with my truck I've told that may not happen and she may have choose another manufacturer/model.

 

[Jimzz]

Id push for more if you want it done but would not expect it.

And 1qt per 1000miles is still in spec for most cars/trucks. Sucks but most other makers would probably not even cover the 45%.

 

[NutBucket]

Yeah, Jimzz is right. While the amount of consumption is "high", it is definitely within spec. The real problem is what happens in 3 years? Does the consumption stay the same or does it get even worse.

While I would be unhappy I think in the long term paying $2k to fix it now is probably the best financial move. Does the repair entail a rebuild of the engine or a new engine? Seems to me for $4k they could simply install a new short block.

The Acadia is nice (we have a 2012) but if I didn't need/want an adult size 3rd row we would have definitely bought an MDX. At the time it was similar money and much nicer.

 

[schmuckley]

Couldn't you put a crate engine in for less than that?
One without those problems?

 

[RPD]

Id push for more if you want it done but would not expect it.

And 1qt per 1000miles is still in spec for most cars/trucks. Sucks but most other makers would probably not even cover the 45%.

Really? No other car/truck I've owned ever came close to requiring that much oil. No one I've talked to him person has either. Think about it, the old standard of an oil change every 5k miles (I know they can go a lot longer, just use this as an example), well what's the point if your engine has a 5quart oil capacity?

I had an old S-10 pick up years ago and it MAYBE needed half a quart right before it was due a oil change. But 1 entire bottle of oil every 1000 miles seems crazy to me.

 

[NutBucket]

I think Nissan folks are complaining about "excessive" consumption with the VQ35s.

Again, that's considered "normal" but anyone that knows anything about cars would call it excessive.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

how do the plugs look? Any problems with fouling?

 

[RPD]

how do the plugs look? Any problems with fouling?

I don't believe so, my mechanic, who's usually on top of everything didn't say anything about this and I haven't looked at them.

 

[pauldun170]

I've owned vehicles with high consumption and usually spec is 1qt per 1000 miles.
Its not uncommon. Honda's, Fords, Audi\VW, Nissans, BMW...all of em have a few burners now and then.

Most manufacturers would politely point you to the dealer showroom if you came in with a 6-7 year old vehicle out of warranty. The fact that they are willing to help you out is actually very good of them.

As for your options, I'd have the repair done. For 2grand you get a rebuilt engine in a paid off truck.

I will say that we owned a Rodeo with the 3.2 Isuzu engine in it. We purchased it new.
That thing went through so much oil it was like owning some antique with a total loss lubrication system. It was about a qt every 600 miles when the pcv valve accumulated had some time on it. then it would settle at a smidge over spec.

We drove that truck until a trooper smashed into it at about 140K give or take 5K.
Never let us down once. Always started. Always took my lead foot. Just had to make sure to check the oil every 2-3 tank fill-ups.

 

[BUTCH1]

GM was actually decent with me on an issue with my '05 Malibu I bought new, I noticed the seat leaning a bit to one side and found that the seat frame weld had cracked, I called GM's "goodwill" program and explained that a car seat frame should last the life of the vehicle (unless it's exposed to rust forming conditions) and since the seat belt is bolted to the seat frame they had just invented the first automotive "ejection" seat, as in a frontal crash would send me flying through the windshield. They had me take it to the dealer and GM ponied up for a new frame and the dealer the labor, a $1000 repair for free..

 

[phucheneh]

People will claim the old standard of 'up to one quart per 1000 miles.' Frankly, it's horseshit. There are 80's and 90's trucks running around that aren't consuming that kind of oil. And I don't mean 'you shoulda bought Japanese' or anything. I mean there are old beater Chevy trucks with V8's, never rebuilt, that do not consume oil like that.

Are you still under 80k miles? I would have six words for them. 'Federal emissions warranty.'

And 'suck my ass.'

It seems that you are already well aware of this (though some others seem to not be), but it's worth reiterating: the dealership really aren't the ones that screwed you. GM wouldn't pay them for a warranty claim within the first 36k, and they're certainly not going to do it now. The dealer can do nothing for you without paying out of their own pockets to fix GM's problem.

I would continue to communicate with GM corporate and get it escalated as far as possible, letting them know that you have maintained your truck and been constantly both aware of this issue and communicating its presence to the dealership, which is basically their paid (via warranty claims) representative. File with the BBB and any other agency that will listen. Document absolutely everything you can.

In the end, I would not hesitate to file a lawsuit. If this was just a used truck you had a bought, I wouldn't say that. But if you have maintenance records and multiple oil analyses done while in warranty, I don't see GM winning. Or even wanting to go to court. Once you add in their own service bulletins acknowledging known issues and a legit expert witness or two willing to say 'this is not right'...eh, it's a fight, but a winnable one. Strong correlation for your side of the argument is there.

There's way too much consumer attitude of 'well, I guess I just have to accept this, because sometimes companies fuck up' in this country. To hell with that.

Oh, and the foremost reason I mention the federal emissions warranty- burning 3-4 quarts between oil changes is absolutely destroying your catalytic converters and will eventually result in a CEL and/or a poor running condition. And a truck that would not meet tailpipe emissions standards for that model year (if it's not already the case).

 

[schmuckley]

Slap 455 Rocket in and call it a day?

400 Big Block?

4.3 v6?

 

[SparkyJJO]

I'm not sure what you mean by it not being a warranty issue but a "quality issue." That's what the warranty is for, to address problems of quality that show up (with X amount of time/usage).

The earlier AFM trucks definitely did have problems with rings and such.

I too think the 1qt/1000 miles being "in spec" is utterly ridiculous, but almost everyone claims that is "normal" so you're almost SOL no matter which brand you talk to.

The problem I see is even though you were aware of something not right and had Blackstone do tests, you didn't bring it to the dealer to have it checked until after the warranty period. That is going to be the sticking point. From their end, they see someone with a vehicle out of warranty with a problem... well, they don't have to do anything. They are doing something by offering to handle half because they know that a bunch of those had AFM problems, so they apparently feel somewhat responsible. But outside warranty they don't know you from the next guy who can't be bothered to change the oil or runs it hard on cold starts.

I think the whole idea of a lawsuit is stupid, frankly. And phucheneh, they wouldn't pay within the first 36k as from what I understand in his post he didn't have them even look at it until well after that.

I guess I'm between option 1 and 2. Try to get them to pay for more of it, but at the same time them paying for half isn't bad all things considered. I don't agree with the 3rd since I've had good service out of my GM truck. Maybe before paying anything for a repair try disabling AFM. I know for some that has fixed the oil usage issues after a while as that can unstick the rings.

 

[phucheneh]

I 100% can appreciate your stance and think we just kinda have different opinions. On the 'quality issue' thing, I will say that what I believe he means is not 'your product broke.' If, in the first 36k, he had a rod hanging out of the block, that would be a 'warranty issue.' What he is experiencing, is a product that functions, but is...shitty. To be a bit ineloquent (eff you, google spelling correction, that is too a word) and blunt about it.

I identify with that because I'm so used to dealing with the intricacies of it.

Here's the format of an easy warranty write-up that would always get paid: Customer states [problem]. Confirmed [problem] is present. Found [part] to have [obvious, unquestionable failure]. Replaced [part]. Tested and confirmed [problem] is no longer present.

Here's a pain in the ass: Customer states [problem] occurs intermittently. Confirmed [problem] occurs at random. Performed [shitpile of inconclusive testing].

...you can see where I'm going with that. The latter is, unfortunately, often a 'quality' issue that cannot be addressed by part replacement. It's not quite what the OP is talking about, but there is a common thread in that the design is to blame more than the execution.



Anyway...how do you disable AFM? Is that a dealer reprogram?

I ask because of, again, federal emissions warranty. A problem necessitating reprogramming ('flashing') of the PCM should be handled similarly to a PCM failure, and be covered under 8/80. I don't believe there is anything questionable there. The messy part is what happens with something that can be regarded as 'collateral damage'.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Disabling AFM is done via aftermarket, not the dealer, and is a workaround to a bad system. That wouldn't fall under the 8/80. Either via a tune or there is a AFM disable module available that simply plugs into the OBD2 port and tells it to not engage AFM. Unplug it and start the truck and it goes back to functioning again. Downside is it isn't cheap, a tune is cheaper usually and gives you more bang for your buck (but not easily reversed and totally traceable if that matters any).

http://www.rangetechnology.com/pages/v8

Also burning that oil won't fall under 8/80 as it is unlikely to cause emissions issues (that 1qt/1000 mile "standard" couldn't exist if it would).

 

[Pacfanweb]

Ford used to have this problem with the old 5.0 liter Mustangs and Crowns. Their spec at the time was 1 quart in 500 miles.

I'd hate to know I had a car that used that much oil.

I'd push GM some more.

 

[LTC8K6]

Horseshit or not, 1qt in 1K is within spec. For a Chrysler with 50K miles, it's well within spec.

DISCUSSION:
Engines require oil to lubricate and protect the load bearing and internal moving parts from
wear including cylinder walls, pistons and piston rings. When a piston moves down its
cylinder, a thin film of oil is left on the cylinder wall. During the power stroke, part of this oil
layer is consumed in the combustion process. Varying rates of oil consumption are
accepted as normal in all engines.
Oil Consumption
The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles listed above is 0.946
liter (1 qt.) in 3,200 km (2,000 mi) for the 1st 80,467 km (50,000 mi). For vehicles with
more then 80,467 km (50,000 mi) the acceptable oil consumption for engines is 0.946 liter
(1 qt.) in 1,207 km (750 mi).
CAUTION: This above rate only applies to personal use vehicles, under warranty,
that are driven in a non-aggressive manner and maintained in
accordance with the appropriate maintenance schedule,
CAUTION: This rate does not apply to vehicles that are driven in an aggressive
manner, at high RPM, high speeds, or in a loaded condition (for trucks).
See ‘Causes for Oil Consumption’ below. Oil consumption for vehicles
driven under these conditions will be higher and may include Fleet and
Commercial customers.
There are many factors that can affect a Owner's concern with oil consumption. Driving
habits and vehicle maintenance vary from owner to owner. Inspect each condition listed
below prior to determining if the vehicle in question has abnormal engine oil consumption.
If abnormal oil consumption is suspected, refer to the detailed diagnostic procedures
available in DealerCONNECT> TechCONNECT under: Service Info> 09 - Engine>
Diagnosis and Testing - Oil Consumption Test And Diagnosis.

http://www.wk2jeeps.com/tsb/tsb_wk2_0900112.pdf

 

[phucheneh]

Horseshit or not, 1qt in 1K is within spec. For a Chrysler with 50K miles, it's well within spec.


http://www.wk2jeeps.com/tsb/tsb_wk2_0900112.pdf

No one said it wasn't 'in spec.' But anyone who knows their ass from their elbow will tell you that that 'spec' has not been relevant in decades unless your car is powered by a rotary or a two-stroke.

 

[LTC8K6]

We've had threads on it before. It was mentioned that it seems like you could just change the filter at the intervals if you were using a quart every 1K miles. You pretty much keep new oil in the engine at such consumption rates.

 

[phucheneh]

We've had threads on it before. It was mentioned that it seems like you could just change the filter at the intervals if you were using a quart every 1K miles. You pretty much keep new oil in the engine at such consumption rates.

That amount of blowby is detrimental to efficiency. Which means mileage, power, and pretty much every other characteristic that an engine can have. The PCV system is overwhelmed and oil ends up in the intake. Every gasket and seal is less effective. You will eventually leak oil at places that don't even normally have liquid oil running through them.

And as I previously noted, the excessive amount of hydrocarbons in the exhaust will destroy converters. I guess the positive is that as they are overwhelmed by a greater amount of HC than they can handle, they will also be melting and closing off exhaust flow. Totally an intended anti-pollution mechanism, right?

So what's the spec on cylinder leakdown? Hell, I wouldn't even measure it in percentage, I'd measure it in decibels as you hear air rushing past the rings. ;P

 

[phucheneh]

...also, it would appear that the dealer is full of shit, anyway.

"The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles referenced is 0.946 liter (1 qt) in 3200 km (2000 mi)."

That's what I'm seeing in their bulletins. That still-silly number is half what he's using.

edit: If what I'm reading in their bulletins is true, it is baffling to me that a leakdown test would not be the first step here. You should see a marked difference between the 'full time' cylinders and those subject to deactivation.

The big question is whether the issue is the carbon deposits and 'stuck rings' that they blame or if the rings/cylinders are worn beyond hope. Based on the simple fact that I don't believe this is universal to these engines, the problem could be as simple the engine's operating conditions. How aggressive you drive, how much the engine idles, the climate you're in, ect. All kinds of things could be a factor. I'd be curious to see how much garbage you can blow out of it by running a solvent-heavy induction cleaner through it at moderate RPM and then going and beating the snot out of it on the interstate.

 

[LTC8K6]

...also, it would appear that the dealer is full of shit, anyway.

"The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles referenced is 0.946 liter (1 qt) in 3200 km (2000 mi)."

That's what I'm seeing in their bulletins. That still-silly number is half what he's using.

edit: If what I'm reading in their bulletins is true, it is baffling to me that a leakdown test would not be the first step here. You should see a marked difference between the 'full time' cylinders and those subject to deactivation.

The big question is whether the issue is the carbon deposits and 'stuck rings' that they blame or if the rings/cylinders are worn beyond hope. Based on the simple fact that I don't believe this is universal to these engines, the problem could be as simple the engine's operating conditions. How aggressive you drive, how much the engine idles, the climate you're in, ect. All kinds of things could be a factor. I'd be curious to see how much garbage you can blow out of it by running a solvent-heavy induction cleaner through it at moderate RPM and then going and beating the snot out of it on the interstate.

2K miles is for Chryslers with less than 50K miles. Over 50K is 750 miles.

IIRC several mfgs specs were discussed in other threads, and many were 1Qt/1K miles.

Here you can see a Toyota TSB that uses 1Qt/1.2K miles as the acceptable amount.

http://www.rav4world.com/tsb/2011/T-SB-0094-11.pdf

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.9thgencivic.com/forum/at...ivic-si-burning-oil-08-01-2012-11;45;26pm.jpg

 

[SpatiallyAware]

I am amazed that they're willing to pay any part of the repair.

Curious that you didn't mention how many miles are on the vehicle..?



1qt/1000 miles is excessive but within most manufacturer's limits.

As another poster stated, nissan has a long-running history of major oil consumption issues with their 3.5l VQ engines, and they tell anyone out of warranty to take a hike. Even in warranty, they blame driving habits.. break-in methods.. oil change intervals or who changed the oil.. any aftermarket modifications... they do anything they possibly can to avoid paying out on it.

 

[sontakke]

Suppose you paid 2K and get this repaired. Do you get a specific warranty that the oil consumption would be reduced to less than 1Qt per 5K miles? I am betting they will not put any numbers down. You will have no recourse if they botched up this job.

Either have them cover the entire job or find some "miracle cures" or live with it.