Piracy (Extortion is what this actually is)

[Amused]

edit:

Okay, folks. I agree that an air strike is a bit too brutal. I'm suffering from meningitis at the moment and extreme irritability is a symptom of that, so I'm a bit bitchy recently.

A commando/SEAL raid would be a better option. But what ever we choose to do, we MUST stop paying ransoms, or this will only get worse.

OP:

Appeasement has gotten us to where we are with this issue.

There is only one solution: As soon as a ship is taken, call in an air strike and sink the damn thing. We MUST assume that any ship taken is already lost and the crew dead. Paying kidnappers is the worst thing we could be doing.

It's the only way to stop all future acts of piracy/extortion. Making extortion pay is only creating more acts of kidnapping and extortion.

Your thoughts?

A recent development:

Islamist Fighters Threaten to Attack Pirates in Clash Over Hijacked Supertanker
Sunday, November 23, 2008

AP

MOGADISHU ? Islamist fighters threatened to attack Somali pirates Sunday in an effort to rescue a Saudi oil supertanker carrying $100 million worth of crude oil that was hijacked last week, the Agence France-Presse reported.

The Sirius Star ? a 1,080-foot tanker owned by Saudi Aramco ? was taken captive by Somali pirates on Nov. 15 in the Indian Ocean. The pirates have demanded that a $25 million ransom be met by Nov. 30 to release the vessel.

Piracy, which is a capital offense under Islam, has reportedly angered the Shehab, a militant Islamist group that controls much of southern and central Somalia and rejects an internationally-backed peace process.

The Islamist group has threatened to launch an attack on the pirates if they do not release the tanker and has positioned their fighters in and around the city of Harardhere in recent days, according to the AFP.

"If the pirates want peace, they had better release the tanker," Sheikh Ahmed, a spokesman for the Shebab group in the coastal region of Harardhere, reportedly told the AFP by phone.

-------------------------------------------------

Another story today:

Indian Sailors Freed by Somali Pirates Recall Horror
Monday , November 24, 2008

MUMBAI, India ? Indian crew members released by Somali pirates said Monday they lived in fear of being killed by the marauders who kept guns pointed at them.

The five crew members were among the first of 18 Indian sailors to arrive in Mumbai, two months after their Japanese-owned cargo ship was hijacked by Somali pirates.

Relieved friends showered flower petals on the men, while sobbing relatives hugged them.

"It was horrific, it was scary," crew member Alistair Fernandez told reporters shortly after landing in Mumbai's airport from Muscat, the capital of Oman.

The pirates released the crew of the Japanese-owned Stolt Valor on Nov. 16 after a ransom was paid, said Abdul Gani Sarang, chairman of the National Union of Seafarers of India.

More than 80 ships have been hijacked off the coast of Somalia this year, several of them with Indian crews.

Fernandez said pirates held them at gunpoint for 24 hours, and their captors followed the hostages at all times, even on trips to the bathroom.

Naveed Burondkar, another sailor, said the pirates were armed with assault rifles and grenades, and the crew feared for their lives through the entire ordeal.

"It was mentally tortuous to have these men with RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) and assault rifles constantly watching you," he said. "It is a big relief being back home."

The pirates allowed them to call home occasionally during their captivity, he said.

Burondkar also said the pirates looked young. "They were in their 20s-30s, everyone was on the edge and it was like they would do anything for money."

The sailors said their captain, Prabhat Goyal, had warned them to watch out for pirates before sailing through the Gulf of Aden. The pirates boarded their ship on Sept. 15.

The Indian sailors, however, planned to return to the seas after a short break.

"These pirates are beasts. They could have done anything to us," said another crew member Santosh Patil. "But we need to go back ? these things, hijacking can happen anywhere."

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Sinking a tanker filled with 2 billion barrels of oil doesn't sound like a good idea...

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
Sinking a tanker filled with 2 billion barrels of oil doesn't sound like a good idea...

Paying them sounds like a worse idea.

Contrary to the environuts, the earth can easily handle a spill like that with only short term effects. Believe it or not, oil is actually a natural substance.

And to be honest, I could give a rat's ass if Somolia's fishing industry is hurt at this point in time.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Hmm, good point, they are not pirates, they are extortionists. Just like the RIAA

 

[tk149]

I Disagree. From what I've read, companies have been paying the ransoms and getting most of the crew back alive. We cannot assume the crew is already dead.

I think they should simply try to disable the ship (e.g. disable the rudder), wait for the fuel to run out, then capture the pirates when they try to run. If the pirates kill all the crew and scuttle the ship, you are no worse off than if you blew up the ship in the first place.

Once captured, the pirates should be tried for, er, piracy.

There definitely should be no ransom payments.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: tk149
I Disagree. From what I've read, companies have been paying the ransoms and getting most of the crew back alive. We cannot assume the crew is already dead.

I think they should simply try to disable the ship (e.g. disable the rudder), wait for the fuel to run out, then capture the pirates when they try to run. If the pirates kill all the crew and scuttle the ship, you are no worse off than if you blew up the ship in the first place.

Once captured, the pirates should be tried for, er, piracy.

There definitely should be no ransom payments.

No ransom payments means a dead crew, therefore the crew can already be assumed dead.

If I were the crew, I'd rather die in an air strike than let the damn kidnappers kill me. At least we'd die fighting.

My plan ends with one dead crew. One airstrike and the extortion stops. Appeasment ends with what we have now.

 

[geno]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: tk149
I Disagree. From what I've read, companies have been paying the ransoms and getting most of the crew back alive. We cannot assume the crew is already dead.

I think they should simply try to disable the ship (e.g. disable the rudder), wait for the fuel to run out, then capture the pirates when they try to run. If the pirates kill all the crew and scuttle the ship, you are no worse off than if you blew up the ship in the first place.

Once captured, the pirates should be tried for, er, piracy.

There definitely should be no ransom payments.

No ransom payments means a dead crew, therefore the crew can already be assumed dead.

If I were the crew, I'd rather die in an air strike than let the damn kidnappers kill me. At least we'd die fighting.

My plan ends with one dead crew. One airstrike and the extortion stops. Appeasment ends with what we have now.

Seriously. Send a message and destroy these assholes. It would be nice if there were a way to do it without putting the crew in even more danger than they're already in (send in the ninjas? ) but I agree paying them is the worst thing you can do. You're just guaranteeing another incident like this, only worse because they'll have more pirates with more guns and explosives because of the payoff they got last time.

 

[Scouzer]

You're an idiot. ugh

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: tk149
I Disagree. From what I've read, companies have been paying the ransoms and getting most of the crew back alive. We cannot assume the crew is already dead.

I think they should simply try to disable the ship (e.g. disable the rudder), wait for the fuel to run out, then capture the pirates when they try to run. If the pirates kill all the crew and scuttle the ship, you are no worse off than if you blew up the ship in the first place.

Once captured, the pirates should be tried for, er, piracy.

There definitely should be no ransom payments.

No ransom payments means a dead crew, therefore the crew can already be assumed dead.

If I were the crew, I'd rather die in an air strike than let the damn kidnappers kill me. At least we'd die fighting.

My plan ends with one dead crew. One airstrike and the extortion stops. Appeasment ends with what we have now.

The companies that run ships through there have insurance that pays for things like this. It's a part of their cost of doing business. They don't have insurance that gives crews back their lives.

The cost of a cleanup would also probably be more than the ransom.

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
Sinking a tanker filled with 2 billion barrels of oil doesn't sound like a good idea...

Paying them sounds like a worse idea.

Contrary to the environuts, the earth can easily handle a spill like that with only short term effects. Believe it or not, oil is actually a natural substance.

And to be honest, I could give a rat's ass if Somolia's fishing industry is hurt at this point in time.

Oh vey, talk about shortsighted.

There are other ways of handling the situation other than taking a sledgehammer to hit a fly. The situation is way more complex than the caveman mentality of "me use club to hit!". Who exactly is going to conduct these airstrikes? The US presumably? So how do you think other countries will feel when their ships get destroyed by US forces? I really doubt if the Saudi's would be too thrilled by having their expensive tanker destroyed.

The solution has to be a combination of things, one of which has to be getting an actual government in place in Somalia that can get a grip on this issue.

 

[nCred]

ok, so we are going to assume the crew is dead.. If the pirates starts killing the crews, people will stop paying. Your plan ends with one dead crew, paying them will likely result in one alive crew. So you are saying we should sacrifice them?

 

[Linflas]

What they should do is mount a special services operation to board the ship with the goal of rescuing the ship and the crew with no regard for the lives of the extortionists. This will not happen though since there is always a chance that there will be loss of life and that is what the media wil focus on rather than the real issue of continuing to allow these people to board ships and extort large amounts of cash with no consequence.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Scouzer
You're an idiot. ugh

No, the idiots are the ones paying the ransom and appeasing the kidnappers, thus insuring more kidnappings and actually creating a profitable kidnapping industry.

I can say, without a doubt, that if I am ever kidnapped I do NOT want ransom paid. Period. If I lose my life while you take the life of the kidnappers, so be it. At least I died on my feet rather than my knees. But for fuck's sake take the life of the kidnappers. Attack them with all available force. Do NOT appease, placate or coddle them.

You can over complicate the matter with liberal "every life is precious" nonsense, just prolong and continue the problem, and whine about the lives of the crew all day long. None of that will stop the violence.

And yes, when you want to stop a fly from bothering you, you don't negotiate with it. You don't pay it. You don't talk to it. You don't plead with other flies to talk to it. You don't try and get the fly a better government because "it's not the fly's fault." You hit it with overwhelming force. You use a gigantic magazine (in proportion to the fly) and literally smash it without mercy.

Call me a caveman all day long, but I will bet you money my policy will put an immediate end to the kidnappings with LESS loss of life and property in the long run.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: tk149
I Disagree. From what I've read, companies have been paying the ransoms and getting most of the crew back alive. We cannot assume the crew is already dead.

I think they should simply try to disable the ship (e.g. disable the rudder), wait for the fuel to run out, then capture the pirates when they try to run. If the pirates kill all the crew and scuttle the ship, you are no worse off than if you blew up the ship in the first place.

Once captured, the pirates should be tried for, er, piracy.

There definitely should be no ransom payments.

No ransom payments means a dead crew, therefore the crew can already be assumed dead.

If I were the crew, I'd rather die in an air strike than let the damn kidnappers kill me. At least we'd die fighting.

My plan ends with one dead crew. One airstrike and the extortion stops. Appeasment ends with what we have now.

The crew is not dead yet (supposedly). You cannot write them off as dead. Your plan results in 100% certainty that the crew, ship, and cargo are lost. My plan has less than 100% certainty that the crew, ship, and cargo are lost. Both plans result in a message to other pirates, which is really what you want, isn't it?

If you make it clear to the pirates that letting the crew live may result in a sentence less than death, they might let the crew go.

The crew is probably tied up below deck. There would be no glorious fighting to the death for them. They'd probably just drown or die in a fire. Pretty crappy way to die any way you look at it.

 

[imported_Section8]

I agree with the OP. We take off and nuke the place from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

 

[Crono]

Never pay ransom, never negotiate with terrorists. Like Amused said, overwhelming force is the only way to deal with pirates. That's how nations have dealt with pirates successfully in the past, and it works. Somalia has major issues with government (or lack thereof) so it would be preferable if other governments in the area patrolled the area more for cooperative anti-piracy.

 

[shoRunner]

i think an airstrike is alittle unnecessary, just call in a seal team with an attach 'copter for support and kill them all without losing the ship. Same outcome, less messy.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
i think an airstrike is alittle unnecessary, just call in a seal team with an attach 'copter for support and kill them all without losing the ship. Same outcome, less messy.

Send in the ninjas of the seas?

 

[darkxshade]

Why not pay the ransom with anthrax laced bills.

 

[BUTCH1]

When will people start defending their own vessels BEFORE they are boarded, as in some 50cal's mounted and manned on bow and stern or maybe 30mm rapid-fire cannon (A-10 ordinance) and just plain open fire at any ship that attempts to get too close.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Scouzer
You're an idiot. ugh

No, the idiots are the ones paying the ransom and appeasing the kidnappers, thus insuring more kidnappings and actually creating a profitable kidnapping industry.

I can say, without a doubt, that if I am ever kidnapped I do NOT want ransom paid. Period. If I lose my life while you take the life of the kidnappers, so be it. At least I died on my feet rather than my knees. But for fuck's sake take the life of the kidnappers. Attack them with all available force. Do NOT appease, placate or coddle them.

You can over complicate the matter with liberal "every life is precious" nonsense, just prolong and continue the problem, and whine about the lives of the crew all day long. None of that will stop the violence.

And yes, when you want to stop a fly from bothering you, you don't negotiate with it. You don't pay it. You don't talk to it. You don't plead with other flies to talk to it. You don't try and get the fly a better government because "it's not the fly's fault." You hit it with overwhelming force. You use a gigantic magazine (in proportion to the fly) and literally smash it without mercy.

Call me a caveman all day long, but I will bet you money my policy will put an immediate end to the kidnappings with LESS loss of life and property in the long run.

Awfully brave behind that keyboard. If I'm ever in that situation, whatever gets me the fuck out of it alive is the best course of action IMO. Since these pirates are making an industry of it, they have no motive to kill the hostages, and are treating them very well from what I've read, even catering them food. Do whatever it takes to stop the piracy before they capture a ship, but once a ship is captured, they should not risk the crew.

 

[mugs]

I think that's a terrible idea. Do the pirates have a history of killing the crews? If not, we should not assume they're dead, and we should not act as if they're likely dead. The cost of the lost cargo would also be immense, as would be the cost of the cleanup if it's a tanker. A better option would be to use the SEALs to take the ship back, and use some (more) destroyers to patrol the area.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
Sinking a tanker filled with 2 billion barrels of oil doesn't sound like a good idea...

source?

 

[Aikouka]

Shit man, send in a squad to get it back. I did that shit in Rainbow Six all the time.

"Threat Neutralized"

 

[VoteQuimby]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
Shit man, send in a squad to get it back. I did that shit in Rainbow Six all the time.

"Threat Neutralized"

Man down, MAN DOWN! We've got bodies here.