Perfect scenario good guy with gun vs bad guy with gun. What happened?

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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,764
18,041
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When it comes to guns the left is the side who is all feels and zero facts. Indeed the "assault weapon" bans favored by the left and "transgender bathroom bans" favored by the right are based on the same (stupid) appearance basis and both spring from ignorance based fear. If you attempted to humor the right with transgender bathroom bans and made them codify the rules for who can use which bathroom, it would just as appearance based and stupidly arbitrary as the left trying to define what an "assault weapon" was. It would be amusing to see what "bayonet lug" equivalent the right came up with for their transgender bathroom bans.

The right wing version:

Screen%20Shot%202016-04-26%20at%204.07.06%20PM_0.png


Left wing version:

SCSP1qS.png

Sure Glenn, the left is all feels, lol. The intellectual dweebs don't use facts.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,051
27,782
136
When it comes to guns the left is the side who is all feels and zero facts. Indeed the "assault weapon" bans favored by the left and "transgender bathroom bans" favored by the right are based on the same (stupid) appearance basis and both spring from ignorance based fear. If you attempted to humor the right with transgender bathroom bans and made them codify the rules for who can use which bathroom, it would just as appearance based and stupidly arbitrary as the left trying to define what an "assault weapon" was. It would be amusing to see what "bayonet lug" equivalent the right came up with for their transgender bathroom bans.

The right wing version:

Screen%20Shot%202016-04-26%20at%204.07.06%20PM_0.png


Left wing version:

SCSP1qS.png
At 40 rounds per minute you are either lying about this being a hunting rifle or just a lousy shot
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
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So a larger question that people can feel free to ignore.

In an extremely violent society compared to many first-world nations, thugs will attack others, so some big white young supremacist goes after an old black guy or another with a like physical advantage seeks to rape, beat severely, kill another. When seconds count, the police are minutes away.

Should the weak hide from the strong? Accept what happens as part of the natural order? The rule of law does not apply here at this moment.

So some means of defense up to and including lethal force if needed, by what means, or tough shit?

No "but guns" no "we need social reformation", none of that because in the real world right now that's irrelevant.

I want to kill you and I can do it (yes hypothetically). You can't run, you can't hide.

Staying with this real-world scenario, now what?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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At 40 rounds per minute you are either lying about this being a hunting rifle or just a lousy shot

Well I'm most certainly not a lousy shot. In the grand scheme of things good firearms marksmanship is not a particularly marketable skillset so it's not like it's something to put on my resume. I guess it also is counteracted by my below average ability to park, so-so driving skills, and terrible cooking. I don't hunt but what makes for a "good" hunting rifle is a philosophical discussion instead of one with clearly defined rules to decide "good" or "bad." Just like with automobiles what constitutes meeting people's minimum needs is typically very different than what they buy. The reasons for that are sometimes intuitive and sometimes not.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,587
29,208
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What if instead of "some nut job" you lived in a place like Idaho or Alaska and needed to deal with a bear? Are you just going to try to bore it to death with Elizabeth Warren speeches before it mauls you? Honestly seeing the left trying to debate firearms with their huge deficit of information or even basic understanding about the subject is akin to seeing the right attempt to debate about transsexual rights or flat earthers discussing science.

lol. says the dude that only absorbs NRA and gun industry-approved studies.

good lord you people are so hilariously gaslit.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,673
13,419
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What if instead of "some nut job" you lived in a place like Idaho or Alaska and needed to deal with a bear? Are you just going to try to bore it to death with Elizabeth Warren speeches before it mauls you? Honestly seeing the left trying to debate firearms with their huge deficit of information or even basic understanding about the subject is akin to seeing the right attempt to debate about transsexual rights or flat earthers discussing science.

Well if I lived in a place with frequent bear attacks my risk trade would be different wouldn’t it? It also wasn’t the hypothetical I was addressing.

If I was in that case I would probably carry an appropriate firearm for dealing with bears.

That being said I would be fine with restricting firearms to fixed magazine sizes less than 10 rounds, pump action, lever action, bolt action, or revolver action with other forms of semi-automatic action being restricted to an updated version of the National Firearms Act.

What would you be carrying if you lived somewhere where your chance of encountering a hostile animal or “nut job” was basically zero. Would you need to carry then?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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lol. says the dude that only absorbs NRA and gun industry-approved studies.

good lord you people are so hilariously gaslit.

What studies do you think I'm absorbing from the NRA? Plenty of stats to be found in the FBI crime statistics database. If anything it's the gun control side that selectively absorbs information or uses it in ways that defy sense. #1 thing the gun control side could do that would actually be helpful is seek to prioritize your restriction efforts on cheaper easily concealed handguns in the .25 and .32 calibers. Crimes with "assault rifles" are barely a rounding error and akin to trying to reduce traffic deaths from intoxicated drivers by banning steamrollers and bulldozers instead of passenger cars.

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,006
47,967
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What studies do you think I'm absorbing from the NRA? Plenty of stats to be found in the FBI crime statistics database. If anything it's the gun control side that selectively absorbs information or uses it in ways that defy sense. #1 thing the gun control side could do that would actually be helpful is seek to prioritize your restriction efforts on cheaper easily concealed handguns in the .25 and .32 calibers. Crimes with "assault rifles" are barely a rounding error and akin to trying to reduce traffic deaths from intoxicated drivers by banning steamrollers and bulldozers instead of passenger cars.

The reason for assault weapons bans is because it’s a stepping stone to other, better restrictions. You can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you want to ban handguns also as I do though I’m all for it!

For the average person owning a gun for protection is stupid and counterproductive. Since basically all other uses don’t require it to be in the home common sense says most gun ownership in the home should be banned.

This is not really a complicated issue at its core, it’s that conservatives react to gun ownership emotionally and it’s hard to counteract emotion with logic because we just aren’t speaking the same language.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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The reason for assault weapons bans is because it’s a stepping stone to other, better restrictions. You can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you want to ban handguns also as I do though I’m all for it!

For the average person owning a gun for protection is stupid and counterproductive. Since basically all other uses don’t require it to be in the home common sense says most gun ownership in the home should be banned.

This is not really a complicated issue at its core, it’s that conservatives react to gun ownership emotionally and it’s hard to counteract emotion with logic because we just aren’t speaking the same language.

Again the world is larger than your personal reality in Brooklyn and your "common sense" is simply a reflection of your own personal biases. You are not the default "average person" and we should by no means try to tailor nationwide policies to fit your personal circumstances and preferences. There's a reason why the founders created the 10th amendment. The laws that are perfectly well suited to you in Park Slope would be stupidly counterproductive in suburban Pocatello, Idaho. And vice versa.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,210
6,809
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What studies do you think I'm absorbing from the NRA? Plenty of stats to be found in the FBI crime statistics database. If anything it's the gun control side that selectively absorbs information or uses it in ways that defy sense. #1 thing the gun control side could do that would actually be helpful is seek to prioritize your restriction efforts on cheaper easily concealed handguns in the .25 and .32 calibers. Crimes with "assault rifles" are barely a rounding error and akin to trying to reduce traffic deaths from intoxicated drivers by banning steamrollers and bulldozers instead of passenger cars.


While easily concealed handguns are a problem, I would say semi-auto rifles are also an issue.

Think of it like you would the reason why aircraft are so tightly regulated even compared to cars. Yes, the smaller-scale hardware actually causes more fatalities overall per year, but it's both harder to completely avoid (with current tech, anyway) and doesn't kill nearly as many people in one shot. A driver that wrecks on the interstate doesn't kill the 50 people behind them.

Like it or not, the truth is that mass shooters gravitate toward semi-auto rilfes and are often more "successful" when they use those weapons. The Las Vegas shooter wouldn't have killed 58 and wounded 413 if he'd turned up with nothing but handguns and bolt-action rifles. It's ridiculous that we think hundreds, maybe thousands of lives are acceptable sacrifices so that people can have a little more fun at the shooting range or cling to their Red Dawn fantasies.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,006
47,967
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Again the world is larger than your personal reality in Brooklyn and your "common sense" is simply a reflection of your own personal biases. You are not the default "average person" and we should by no means try to tailor nationwide policies to fit your personal circumstances and preferences. There's a reason why the founders created the 10th amendment. The laws that are perfectly well suited to you in Park Slope would be stupidly counterproductive in suburban Pocatello, Idaho. And vice versa.

The projection here is strong, you assume since you base your opinion on your personal bias that I do the same. What I am referring to has nothing to do with my personal experience with firearms, even though that is considerable. I'm just referring to the well established empirical research that shows gun ownership in the home is a risk factor for being both a victim of homicide and suicide. ie: you are less safe WITH a gun than without one.

As for my opinions being based on some parochial Brooklyn concerns, I suspect I've lived in more parts of this country than you have.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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While easily concealed handguns are a problem, I would say semi-auto rifles are also an issue.

Think of it like you would the reason why aircraft are so tightly regulated even compared to cars. Yes, the smaller-scale hardware actually causes more fatalities overall per year, but it's both harder to completely avoid (with current tech, anyway) and doesn't kill nearly as many people in one shot. A driver that wrecks on the interstate doesn't kill the 50 people behind them.

Like it or not, the truth is that mass shooters gravitate toward semi-auto rilfes and are often more "successful" when they use those weapons. The Las Vegas shooter wouldn't have killed 58 and wounded 413 if he'd turned up with nothing but handguns and bolt-action rifles. It's ridiculous that we think hundreds, maybe thousands of lives are acceptable sacrifices so that people can have a little more fun at the shooting range or cling to their Red Dawn fantasies.

Your example of aircraft regulation is fairly useful here. Even though a plane crash may kill 50 people (or 250 people) behind them, we still don't outlaw "assault planes" from being sold to or operated by the public. We don't ban aircraft from public purchase if they're painted black or have "military style features." The gun control folks aren't attempting to enact FAA style regulation on firearms like time and use restrictions, minimum rest requirements for crew, aircraft pre-flight certification, etc.

Semi-auto rifles are only an issue to the extent you want to consider them an issue. I personally have no desire to own one, although when I was in the Army and it was literally my primary job tool then having the ability to own one personally to get additional practice would have been nice. If I did own one then I'd probably want to store it at the range where I'd actually use it instead of at my house. But I realize my personal situation isn't the same as 300+ million other folks. I likewise have no reason or desire to own a Camaro or sports car, but that doesn't mean I think they should be banned for everyone even though I think most people who own one do so for stupid reasons. Still it's not my job or the purpose of our constitution to protect people from buying things they don't need and probably can't use effectively as someone whose job it is to use them. Now if you're going around saying "I want a Camaro so I can run over pedestrians faster" that's a different story and likewise would it be for firearms.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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The projection here is strong, you assume since you base your opinion on your personal bias that I do the same. What I am referring to has nothing to do with my personal experience with firearms, even though that is considerable. I'm just referring to the well established empirical research that shows gun ownership in the home is a risk factor for being both a victim of homicide and suicide. ie: you are less safe WITH a gun than without one.

Not really relevant. Possession of any item increases your probability of dying from it by definition. Ownership of soup spoons is a risk factor for being a victim of homicide or suicide by soup spoon. It also assumes causality when it's not demonstrable. For sake of argument I could stipulate your point and still argue against it since outlawing or restricting guns on that basis is a paternalistic impulse that both goes against the clear text of the 2nd Amendment and its overall character of being about what rights citizens have and not how the government protects citizens against itself. If you want to live in the place that infantilizes you by outlawing large sodas and firearms alike then congrats, you're already there.

As for my opinions being based on some parochial Brooklyn concerns, I suspect I've lived in more parts of this country than you have.

I supremely doubt that, but since this isn't a dick measuring contest and there's no prize for "lived in more parts of the country than you" then feel free to believe whatever you want.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,006
47,967
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Not really relevant. Possession of any item increases your probability of dying from it by definition. Ownership of soup spoons is a risk factor for being a victim of homicide or suicide by soup spoon. It also assumes causality when it's not demonstrable. For sake of argument I could stipulate your point and still argue against it since outlawing or restricting guns on that basis is a paternalistic impulse that both goes against the clear text of the 2nd Amendment and its overall character of being about what rights citizens have and not how the government protects citizens against itself. If you want to live in the place that infantilizes you by outlawing large sodas and firearms alike then congrats, you're already there.

I did not say it was a risk factor for GUN homicide and GUN suicide, I said it was a risk factor for homicide and suicide generally. So yes, it's extremely, extremely relevant, haha. As for assuming causality that's never demonstrable. The research that established smoking and cancer is related does not demonstrate causality, for example. Does anyone seriously think that's relevant?

As for the 2nd amendment, who gives a shit? I'm not talking about what laws can be implemented now, just the laws that would be best. You asked why people try to implement assault weapon bans and one of the big reasons is that we can't ban all guns at the moment so you ban the ones you can.

I supremely doubt that, but since this isn't a dick measuring contest and there's no prize for "lived in more parts of the country than you" then feel free to believe whatever you want.

I agree, which is why you shouldn't try and dismiss people's opinions based on a very wrong assumption that they don't know what the rest of the country is like.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,210
6,809
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Your example of aircraft regulation is fairly useful here. Even though a plane crash may kill 50 people (or 250 people) behind them, we still don't outlaw "assault planes" from being sold to or operated by the public. We don't ban aircraft from public purchase if they're painted black or have "military style features." The gun control folks aren't attempting to enact FAA style regulation on firearms like time and use restrictions, minimum rest requirements for crew, aircraft pre-flight certification, etc.

Semi-auto rifles are only an issue to the extent you want to consider them an issue. I personally have no desire to own one, although when I was in the Army and it was literally my primary job tool then having the ability to own one personally to get additional practice would have been nice. If I did own one then I'd probably want to store it at the range where I'd actually use it instead of at my house. But I realize my personal situation isn't the same as 300+ million other folks. I likewise have no reason or desire to own a Camaro or sports car, but that doesn't mean I think they should be banned for everyone even though I think most people who own one do so for stupid reasons. Still it's not my job or the purpose of our constitution to protect people from buying things they don't need and probably can't use effectively as someone whose job it is to use them. Now if you're going around saying "I want a Camaro so I can run over pedestrians faster" that's a different story and likewise would it be for firearms.

The funny thing is that it's pretty clear you can't buy "assault planes." Ask Lockheed if it'll sell you an F-22 (or even an old F-16) and you'll be laughed out of the building no matter how much money you have. What few military-style aircraft you see in civilian use tend to either be training jets or old Russian fighters.

The Constitution talks about having a right to bear arms. It doesn't say that you're entitled to any weapon you want. As such, I think it's perfectly reasonable to restrict the kinds of guns that are available when the drawbacks of selling them clearly outweigh the advantages. And a soldier's desire to get in a little extra practice time isn't worth a host of dead bodies.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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The funny thing is that it's pretty clear you can't buy "assault planes." Ask Lockheed if it'll sell you an F-22 (or even an old F-16) and you'll be laughed out of the building no matter how much money you have. What few military-style aircraft you see in civilian use tend to either be training jets or old Russian fighters.

The Constitution talks about having a right to bear arms. It doesn't say that you're entitled to any weapon you want. As such, I think it's perfectly reasonable to restrict the kinds of guns that are available when the drawbacks of selling them clearly outweigh the advantages. And a soldier's desire to get in a little extra practice time isn't worth a host of dead bodies.

The companies don't build in the spare capacity to sell to private citizens since the U.S. government is presumed to be a monopsony buyer, not because they're prohibited from selling them to you.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/299805-fully-operational-f-16-fighter-for-sale-in-florida

As for whether the 2A means you're "entitled to any kind of weapon you want" is for us to decide. 2A no more specifies exception cases than the 1A specifies the exception cases for free speech. What kinds of weapons should be appropriate exceptions to 2A is clearly 100% a matter of personal opinion instead of something which has a bright line test like "fighting words" for 1A. I think the citizens of Idaho will have far different opinions about "drawbacks vs. advantages" of particular weapons or weapon types than would you or @fskimospy .
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
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At 40 rounds per minute you are either lying about this being a hunting rifle or just a lousy shot
the difference is that no dork in his mom's basement has ever fantasized about shooting up the school with something that looked like the latter weapon, while all the guys down at the range talking about firing on world government agents picture themselves with the former weapon.

there's definitely a fetishism for scary black rifles, and it isn't limited to the left.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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the difference is that no dork in his mom's basement has ever fantasized about shooting up the school with something that looked like the latter weapon, while all the guys down at the range talking about firing on world government agents picture themselves with the former weapon.

there's definitely a fetishism for scary black rifles, and it isn't limited to the left.

The scary black rifles like the AR-15 are popular because they're the Honda Civics of the long gun world. Relatively lightweight and easy to handle, intuitive ergonomics, widely available, reasonably cheap. The military likes them because they're super easy to train someone to operate and maintain so it's truly a "lowest common denominator" firearm. Same principle as why medieval armies went from longbows (the much better weapon) to arquebus, because you could train an army of peasants to use the later in a fraction of the time it took to become proficient at longbow. It's not that hard to find a specific long gun that could do better at your particular use case, but the AR-15 platform can reasonably do most tasks competently.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,051
27,782
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Isn't an AR-15 like saying a stick of dynamite is a good fishing tool? After all just drop one in a lake, it goes off and dead fish float to the surface.

Why is more then just a single shot/load rifle needed for hunting?

Once self defense is a question like living in bear country that should be a different discussion
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Isn't an AR-15 like saying a stick of dynamite is a good fishing tool? After all just drop one in a lake, it goes off and dead fish float to the surface.

Why is more then just a single shot/load rifle needed for hunting?

Once self defense is a question like living in bear country that should be a different discussion
There's always the multiple assailant scenario.

Not that this is the only case.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
I wish we could shut up about gun control long enough to get Trump out of the White House. Telling gun owners we're taking your guns is going to galvanize the opposition more so than it will win the Dems any new votes. When Trump wins another 4 years, at least you can be satisfied you disarmed all those dirty gun owners.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,345
2,705
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I wish we could shut up about gun control long enough to get Trump out of the White House. Telling gun owners we're taking your guns is going to galvanize the opposition more so than it will win the Dems any new votes. When Trump wins another 4 years, at least you can be satisfied you disarmed all those dirty gun owners.
a lot will believe that anyways no matter what they're told.

as long as a democrat holds the office he's going to grab their guns whether or not it's true. there is no reasoning with people like that.

just look at all the nuts buying guns after Obama won the election and nothing like that was even mentioned by him, they just assumed he was.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,076
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I wish we could shut up about gun control long enough to get Trump out of the White House. Telling gun owners we're taking your guns is going to galvanize the opposition more so than it will win the Dems any new votes. When Trump wins another 4 years, at least you can be satisfied you disarmed all those dirty gun owners.
I actually agree with you here, that said, it really doesn't matter because any democratic candidate will be "coming for your guns" and the gun nutters will believe it.

Remember when Obama was coming for your guns despite at one point getting straight F's from the Brady campaign? Was a great time for the gun industry.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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Isn't an AR-15 like saying a stick of dynamite is a good fishing tool? After all just drop one in a lake, it goes off and dead fish float to the surface.

Why is more then just a single shot/load rifle needed for hunting?

Once self defense is a question like living in bear country that should be a different discussion

Not a hunter so I'm not super familiar with their situations or needs. From a novice/outsider perspective I suppose you could be correct but then you could open yourself to a legitimate slippery slope argument of "if single shot is enough why do you even need a firearm, you could use bow and arrow. Or just throw a rock at what you're hunting."

Part of the reason why rights are written broadly is because it's difficult if not impossible to understand the full spectrum of what needs/desires having that right empowers. I'm likely to never fully appreciate the right to personally own an AR-15 platform weapon because frankly I had more than enough of them while in the Army and using one as my pillow for years. If I were to own one I'd probably pay to store it at the range because that's my individual use case, I don't really relate to having one for home use. But I'm not the only use case out there.

As a cisgender straight white man I'm unlikely ever to fully appreciate some of the more raucous gay pride events out there which 1A enables. If I were to attend or view a parade it would probably be the county sponsored one with the girl scouts and karate clubs marching, I don't really relate to the leather contingent guys or drag queen floats, because although that's not my special interest I realize I'm not the only use case out there. Like with firearms I think both the parade and firearms should follow time and place rules (a kindergarten class isn't time to show off either your AR-15 or your full body gimp suit).

In both cases neither the AR-15 nor parade is something that personally interests me terribly and I needed to exert personal effort to safeguard those rights for others I'd probably go "meh." But thankfully the Bill of Rights makes easy work of it for me so that I don't need to consider (or have any interest at all) in how someone completely unlike me is exercising their rights, I just need to support and value the concepts of rights at a general level and don't need to sweat the details.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
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Sorry, I'm gonna ramble for a bit. It's my day off and I've got some stuff I want to say in light of the conversation in this thread. I don't think this is going to change the minds of anyone against guns, and none of this is meant to refute any gun control argument, nor should it be taken to mean I don't support keeping guns away from the sick/ill/criminal individuals would would use them violently against others. But maybe if we better understood where each was coming from it would help. I'm SPOILERING this out by default. Click at your own peril, you have been warned!

The civilian AR-15 and the modern military M4 fall into the "assault rifles" category, which is different from a battle rifle like the .30-06 M1 Garand U.S. soldiers fought WWII with, or the typical hunting rifle in many ways. The AR was designed to shoot a smaller caliber (5.56mm) cartridge with less recoil to be easier for the average person to shoot well. You could also carry more ammo because the ammo was lighter, and the gun was designed to use the removable magazine to speed up reloading. The military AR/M4 was originally designed to shoot either in full auto mode (hold down the trigger and it keeps shooting until released or empty) or in 3-round burst mode that fires three rounds per trigger pull. Both were considered wasteful and made it hard to hit a target as the rifle jumped around, so today the modern military M4 rifle is typically set up to shoot either semi-auto (one round per trigger pull) or 3-round burst modes. The civilian version of the M4, the AR-15, legally only shoots semi-auto and you get one shot fired per trigger pull. Single aimed shots is the most accurate way to fire the gun anyway.

True battle rifles like the M1 Garand .30-06 or the M14 7.62×51mm NATO are big, heavy rifles that can reach out and hit a target at greater distances, with more power, but have largely been replaced for the average soldier by the assault rifle which is easier to shoot and has the many advantage I've listed above.

5.56 mm NATO vs .223 caliber, the later being more common in the civilian AR-15. The first difference is the higher pressure level of the 5.56 NATO cartridge which runs at approximately 58,000 psi. A 223 Remington is loaded to approximately 55,000 psi. The second and most important difference between the two is the fact that a 5.56 NATO chamber has a . 125” longer throat. So some guns will shoot both, but many guns are only rated to shoot .223.

Hunting rifles. In many states and in the opinion of most ethical hunters the 5.56/.223 round is too small to hunt deer with reliably. Some states legally require a more powerful and/or larger round. Heck, some states require you hunt with a shotgun with slugs. And we are talking about deer which are relative easy to kill for big game. And the 5.56/.223 is far too weak to try to take a larger animal like an elk, moose or bear with. That doesn't mean lots of deer and those larger animals haven't been taken with one, but most ethical hunters lack the skill to do so and most state laws require hunters use a more powerful caliber with a better chance of a quick, one-shot kill. Which is every ethical hunter's goal.

That doesn't mean the AR isn't a great platform for hunting. The AR comes in an AR-10 version which is chambered in the more powerful 7.62/.308 cartridge, as well as many other calibers more suited to hunting North American big game. And then we get to magazine restrictions for hunting. Most states limit a hunter to 3-4 rounds total in the gun. I don't know of any state that legally allows you to hunt with a full 30-round magazine. So the idea of a gun-nut emptying a 30 round magazine into Bambi is quite illegal and mostly a gun-grabber fantasy.

But most hunters, unless they just love the AR rifle platform, are going to use something like a bolt action rifle in an appropriate caliber for the intended game. I personally use either a scoped, bolt-action .308 rifle or a .50 black powder Hawken rifle on deer, though the Hawken is effective at a much more limited range. You can pick up a nice hunting caliber bolt action rifle with a scope for around $300 all day long. An AR platform rifle in an appropriate hunting caliber will cost you 3-5x that much. But there are many classic hunting rifles that are semi-auto, as well as lever-action, single shot, pump-action and more. Getting fixated on largely cosmetic aspects of a rifle such as color, pistol grips, foldable shoulder stocks, barrel shrouds and such is counterproductive, with the exception of the removable magazine that admittedly does make reloads faster. It's part of what makes an AR a good rifle for self-defense, and so dangerous in the hands of the evil/sick/criminal who are the problem when it comes to gun violence. And noting is as silly as the fight to ban suppressors, which only make guns safer to shoot without damaging your hearing. Using one still requires hearing protection as the shot is still very loud, nowhere near quiet enough to not be noticed.

Let's talk ethics. Hunters have a love for and incentive to care for and protect the wild lands and wild life that lives on them. We provide funding for conservation via our licencing and tag fees, not to mention millions of donated man hours in volunteer work to keep those lands and critters healthy. I personally am a proud member of the Bonner County Sportsman's Society. We help keep deer herds healthy by culling animals that may otherwise starve if left uncontrolled. And I've seen anti-hunting folks trying to disrupt hunts and rattle noise-makers to scare off waterfowl on opening day, but I've never seen them built rain-water catch basins to provide wildlife with the water the need to survive or do anything else to help wildlife or wild lands.

The vast majority of hunters and gun owners are ethical sportsman, and we are the first to report poachers and those who are not. An ethical hunter complies with all regulations and uses a gun of sufficiently powerful caliber to humanely and quickly kill their target. Sometimes you get a one-shot kill, but often it takes a second shot or more to end the animals suffering. Most hunters would agree that using a single shot rifle is an advanced skill as a second shot is slow in coming. Hunters who use guns that are extremely slow to reload, such as a muzzleloading black powder rifle, often carry a backup pistol of some sort where legal in case they need a quick followup shot to put the animal down.

And bow hunting is wildly popular, which requires an even higher level of skill, hours and hours of practice, and you have to either stalk to or wait for the animal to come much closer for a humane kill. The idea that hunting is bubba with an AR-15 blasting 30 rounds at Bambi on full-auto is, again, both illegal and generally a gun-grabbing fiction.

I personally know hunters who will spend days in the woods just sitting under a tree or in a stand because they have a fierce love and respect for the wild outdoors. Many of them will pass up on harvesting an animal until close to the last day to extend their season and time in the field. And many of them spend lots of dollars and time in the off-season improving their lands to grow healthy animals they can harvest to put food on their family's table. Which many of us consider more ethical than letting others kill and butcher your meat so you can collect it in neatly wrapped packages in the supermarket.

To wrap up this rambling post, a gun is just a tool that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time are used legally and safely to support a perfectly honorable and respectable way of life.