Pelosi using military jets for herself and family

[GarfieldtheCat]

How do you feel about paying for their (ALL reps') caviar, champagne, and expensive cognac while they travel from point A to point B?

To be honest, I don't like it, but to be clear, both parties do this (hell, all top business execs do it to, I bet), and it's such a small thing compared to all the other problems we have, I can't get that worked up about it.

Yes, I would like it not to be abused, but there are a lot of things that need to be fixed before getting to this. The money is peanuts compared to tax changes, wars, healthcare debates, etc.

And I think it's stupid to single out Pelosi for this, it's typical right-wing mud-slinging. If she gets voted out this fall, and a Repub gets to be Speaker, the same people screaming bloody murder now will suddenly shut up and be fine with it. Partisanship at its lowest. She's an idiot, there are plenty of valid things to complain about with her, use them.

I didn't complain (nor care) about Bush and all of his vacations back when he was President. Sure I thought we took a bit too many, but I am not going to worry about how many vacation days he took, or the cost to fly everyone back and forth all those times. It's the same thing.

 

[kage69]

I'm curious, have those with a problem with this voiced similar criticism over Sarah Palin's tax-payer supported family ventures?

 

[Modelworks]

Damnit, I read the title as Pelosi using military jets on herself and family.
Had my hopes up !

Now so disappointed.

 

[HumblePie]

Well now time for me to chime in.

Okay, first off to Palehorse, you should know this being mil like me. You already stated that you have no problem with her and or any other member of the government using government travel. The military is government and our leaders are too. Also, you should know that you, like all government employees, are entitled to use of government transportation for yourself and your family. You never done hops from the Air Force or tiger cruises from the Navy? The plane or boat is already heading in a direction, and it doesn't waste really any more money to bring family members along for the trip.

Anyone who even argues the point about the federal government using the military for transportation is by definition a "nut case" in my book.

Now, for your side of the argument Palehorse. You feel the "amenity" expenses are too much. I do agree that some of these amenities should be further looked into to see how they are being used. Using funds for amenities for diplomacy is perfectly legit. Let me ask you this, if we could have won over Al Queda long ago with a few expensive meals and some booze, don't you think a few hundred thousand would have been tax payer expense than the current war? Not that I am saying that would have ever worked with them, but the analogy I am trying to make is sometimes diplomacy is used by our government leaders. This is why they have some of those amenities.

Also it must be pointed out, that many times her flight had her with many other elected officials all using "amenities" so there is no way to attribute all the spending on her alone. Look, I all for keeping tabs on the spending habits of our leaders, but make sure the blame is properly placed when it is warranted is my philosophy. Nothing in these documents shows the whole picture of what went on enough to place blame on Pelosi in this case.

Sorry I picked you out Palehorse, but since I know you are another military member I figured I might relate my opinion on the matter as a slight counter argument better to you.

 

[thegimp03]

An average cost of $28k a flight? Can't she fly commercial first class for a little less than that? Not only that, but 1/3 of the flights including members of her family. Sorry, that should be put on her own tab.

 

[Mani]

Honestly I've never been much of a fan of hers, but as long as she's pissing off the lunatic fringe represented in this thread she's ok with me.

 

[Craig234]

An average cost of $28k a flight? Can't she fly commercial first class for a little less than that? Not only that, but 1/3 of the flights including members of her family. Sorry, that should be put on her own tab.

Try reading the thread.

 

[gacrowell]

I've begun going through the 2000 pages in greater detail, entering items in a spreadsheet: a page index, dates, who flew, what type of a/c, time, a/c cost/hr, in-flight costs, and what was reimbursed. The big overseas delegation flights will take a lot more work, but the domestic shuttle flights are pretty easy to go through. 800 pages so far. I'll post what I find.

The JudicalWatch guys had to go through this exercise to make their claims; makes you wonder why they didn't post their own spreadsheet.

Gary

 

[Jhhnn]

The JudicalWatch guys had to go through this exercise to make their claims; makes you wonder why they didn't post their own spreadsheet.

Not necessarily. Facts and analysis are inconvenient when you're on a mission from God to perform a hatchet-job...

 

[Ozoned]

I've begun going through the 2000 pages in greater detail, entering items in a spreadsheet: a page index, dates, who flew, what type of a/c, time, a/c cost/hr, in-flight costs, and what was reimbursed. The big overseas delegation flights will take a lot more work, but the domestic shuttle flights are pretty easy to go through. 800 pages so far. I'll post what I find.

The JudicalWatch guys had to go through this exercise to make their claims; makes you wonder why they didn't post their own spreadsheet.

Gary

Do you get paid for this little chore? Is it for damage control or damage?

 

[Jhhnn]

Do you get paid for this little chore? Is it for damage control or damage?

Maybe he's just interested in the truth, unlike some others in this thread who just want to rave and dump on teh ebil Pelosi...

That's the whole point of the original article, anyway- help the ravers get off with a little bit of knee-jerk outrage...

 

[Jiggz]

Not necessarily. Facts and analysis are inconvenient when you're on a mission from God to perform a hatchet-job...

The same manner SOB don't want to release his school records?

 

[Jhhnn]

The same manner SOB don't want to release his school records?

Straight from a polar elliptical orbit of Pluto...

Anything to maintain denial...

 

[Nebor]

She had military aircraft transport her family without her being present. So little trips for just her family (and extended family.) It smacks of impropriety.

 

[palehorse]

To be honest, I don't like it, but to be clear, both parties do this (hell, all top business execs do it to, I bet), and it's such a small thing compared to all the other problems we have, I can't get that worked up about it.

One of those groups of people is comprised of federal elected employees whose apparently lavish lifestyle is being paid for with taxpayer dollars, while the other is... errr... wait a sec... nevermind... thanks to the bailouts, they're both the same nowadays... carry on then.

Yes, I would like it not to be abused, but there are a lot of things that need to be fixed before getting to this. The money is peanuts compared to tax changes, wars, healthcare debates, etc.

Of course I agree that there are many more important issues; but, like I said, I still adamantly object to this on principle.

And I think it's stupid to single out Pelosi for this, it's typical right-wing mud-slinging. If she gets voted out this fall, and a Repub gets to be Speaker, the same people screaming bloody murder now will suddenly shut up and be fine with it. Partisanship at its lowest. She's an idiot, there are plenty of valid things to complain about with her, use them.

I'm no partisan hack, and I made it clear that I object to both parties spending our money frivolously.

I didn't complain (nor care) about Bush and all of his vacations back when he was President. Sure I thought he took a bit too many, but I am not going to worry about how many vacation days he took, or the cost to fly everyone back and forth all those times. It's the same thing.

I'll gladly complain about both. As I said, they're all guilty. This example of abuse is simply indicative of their collective attitude about our money, as well as their blatant sense of superiority/entitlement.

 

[palehorse]

Well now time for me to chime in.

Okay, first off to Palehorse, you should know this being mil like me. You already stated that you have no problem with her and or any other member of the government using government travel. The military is government and our leaders are too. Also, you should know that you, like all government employees, are entitled to use of government transportation for yourself and your family. You never done hops from the Air Force or tiger cruises from the Navy? The plane or boat is already heading in a direction, and it doesn't waste really any more money to bring family members along for the trip.

Anyone who even argues the point about the federal government using the military for transportation is by definition a "nut case" in my book.

Like I said -- and you even noted yourself -- I have no problem with any of them using mil air. Which part of that confuses you?

Now, for your side of the argument Palehorse. You feel the "amenity" expenses are too much. I do agree that some of these amenities should be further looked into to see how they are being used. Using funds for amenities for diplomacy is perfectly legit. Let me ask you this, if we could have won over Al Queda long ago with a few expensive meals and some booze, don't you think a few hundred thousand would have been tax payer expense than the current war? Not that I am saying that would have ever worked with them, but the analogy I am trying to make is sometimes diplomacy is used by our government leaders. This is why they have some of those amenities.

There is nothing to indicate that the amenities were being used to entertain foreign dignitaries -- which, like you said, would certainly be different (and acceptable). These expenses appear to include lavish food and drink for the representatives and families themselves. There is not one shred of evidence to indicate that any of the liquor or food was used for diplomatic purposes -- other than the final destinations of each trip supposedly involving something akin to "work."

Do you have anything that indicates the flights themselves were used to entertain foreign dignitaries?

Also it must be pointed out, that many times her flight had her with many other elected officials all using "amenities" so there is no way to attribute all the spending on her alone. Look, I all for keeping tabs on the spending habits of our leaders, but make sure the blame is properly placed when it is warranted is my philosophy. Nothing in these documents shows the whole picture of what went on enough to place blame on Pelosi in this case.

As I also said above, they are all guilty of this abuse.

Sorry I picked you out Palehorse, but since I know you are another military member I figured I might relate my opinion on the matter as a slight counter argument better to you.

You didn't really "counter" anything that I wrote, so it's all good.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

One of those groups of people is comprised of federal elected employees whose apparently lavish lifestyle is being paid for with taxpayer dollars, while the other is... errr... wait a sec... nevermind... thanks to the bailouts, they're both the same nowadays... carry on then.

You said it.

Of course I agree that there are many more important issues; but, like I said, I still adamantly object to this on principle.

I do to, but it's just such a drop in the bucket compared to everything else. Of course, both political parties like this, to keep people thinking about the small stuff like this while they keep the big money out of the news.

I'm no partisan hack, and I made it clear that I object to both parties spending our money frivolously.

Sorry, I wasn't calling you a partisan hack, but was referring to some of the others in the thread that had posted. They wouldn't complain at all if Pelosi had an R after her name.

I disagreed with locking up people forever under Bush, just because Obama wants to do it as well doesn't make it right. I wish more people would object to both parties when they do something.

I'll gladly complain about both. As I said, they're all guilty. This example of abuse is simply indicative of their collective attitude about our money, as well as their blatant sense of superiority/entitlement.

++plusityplusplus

Agree 100%. Both parties are the same, we are just pawns in their game of politics to get as much power as possible.

 

[gacrowell]

Do you get paid for this little chore? Is it for damage control or damage?

Well, I figure it beats spending time reading through page after page and post after post of speculation filtered thru what Judicial Watch cares to headline. I'd rather know for myself; FOIA ya know.

Finiahed about 2/3 of it, which looks like all of Hastert's shuttles, just starting on Pelosi. Unfortunately I just noticed I can't put attachments here, I'll have to find another place to post the results.

Gary

 

[nobodyknows]

Well, I figure it beats spending time reading through page after page and post after post of speculation filtered thru what Judicial Watch cares to headline. I'd rather know for myself; FOIA ya know.

Finiahed about 2/3 of it, which looks like all of Hastert's shuttles, just starting on Pelosi. Unfortunately I just noticed I can't put attachments here, I'll have to find another place to post the results.

Gary

It would bwe nice to seem some real figures. If nothing else it will remind us all that this is a government of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich.

 

[werepossum]

It would be nice to see some real figures. If nothing else it will remind us all that this is a government of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich.

No matter how well-intentioned the person, years spent in D.C. change them. That's why people say that politicians, like diapers, should be changed regularly and for the same reason. Only Dennis Kucinich hasn't changed; I think his special nutpowers grant him immunity.

 

[HumblePie]

Palehorse, I would point out that buying "Kosher" drinks at one point for Foreign dignitaries is considered a diplomatic expense. If it's done once, is it not safe to assume it was done more than once?

Now I'm not saying all the expenditures were up and above board, although they all might have been, but some we know are even according the the Judicial Watches "interpretation" of the spending.

I will also state, that it's a long flight from CA to DC and if you don't think a person is going to have a meal or two and possibly a drink or two before stepping foot to face off with political rivals isn't justified spending, then I'm not sure what is. Also, I don't expect our leaders to be eating a happy meal or some taco bell brought on the plane for them either. They probably have zero idea at the "true" expense of what they are eating or drinking because they more than likely board a plane, ask for a menu with no prices on it, and order what they want to eat.

What should be looked at is who is actually "ordering" the food that is being put on the plane and the price of the "cook" they are using as well.

 

[Ozoned]

You know,,,speaker Pelosi probably is not very upset that you are focusing on this crap, instead of what she is doing in the shadows.

 

[gacrowell]

An average cost of $28k a flight? Can't she fly commercial first class for a little less than that? Not only that, but 1/3 of the flights including members of her family. Sorry, that should be put on her own tab.

Family members, other than her spouse, appear to have always reimbursed the AF at an economy seat commercial rate. They also reimbursed for food. This is very clear in the travel documents, though I haven't went through each in detail yet.

Sure its a benefit to Pelosi's family, but doesn't it also (slightly) reduce the cost of the flight to the benefit of the taxpayer? If there were a flight expressly for the benefit of her family, that would be criminal - but I haven't seen any evidence of that yet.

Gary

 

[gacrowell]

What should be looked at is who is actually "ordering" the food that is being put on the plane and the price of the "cook" they are using as well.

On the AF flights it appears to always be the military steward. Food is usually purchased at military commissaries, sometimes at civ grocery stores. I'm surprised at how many different places; it apparently depends on who's doing the buying.

On shuttle flights, many meals are just snacks, grapes, apples, salads, chips. Some cooking appears to be done at the Andrews AFB mess before flights. Some light cooking may be done in-flight, probably depending on the aircraft.

Gary

 

[gacrowell]

She had military aircraft transport her family without her being present. So little trips for just her family (and extended family.) It smacks of impropriety.

Just finished a 2nd, closer scan of the 2000 pages of .pdf's. There are a number of instances (p1658, p1767, p1815, p1864, p1889) where an authorization document mentions only Pelosi family members; in the absence of anything else they sound like flights for those members alone. However there are always additional documents regarding the other people, including speaker Pelosi, who are on the same flight. People are dropped, and added, at the last minute (sometimes apparently after the flight) to the authorizations. It looks like the final, authoritative document is the AF flight manifest/expense report. It reports who actually flew.

I have not yet seen any case where Pelosi family members flew without the speaker present. I'd really like it if someone could point me to such a document.

Gary