Pay More, Get Less

[NutBucket]

We save water because we literally don't have any. I mean sure there's a financial incentive but being able to take a shower come summertime is a much bigger one!

 

[Torn Mind]

One of our last years in CA, the city was hammering everyone to conserve water...so people stopped using so much water. All of a sudden, revenues were down because...SURPRISE! people weren't using and paying for as much water...so the city jacked up the rates to make up the difference.

Thus describes the internal conflict government has. For, it too requires money to survive and provide, yet many actions decrease their "lifestream". And of course, the need for lifeblood causes an action.

 

[MrSquished]

Huh? I didn't once advocate for defense funding. Nor did I advocate for cutting funding for education.

My main argument is continuing to throw money at any societal issue won't solve anything.

Don't get me started on the "everyone needs to go to college" BS.

I never said we should just throw money at everything and I never said everybody should go to college. In fact I think education should include the trades and there should be public education in that regard as well as well as grants and scholarships for those types of schools and courses. I think there should be health insurance for all so freelance people in the trades don't have to worry about overpriced health care all the time. And I think companies that hire people in the trade should be forced to give them paid vacation and other benefits too. I strongly support blue collar work, the education and training for people interested in that.

The fact is teachers are severely underpaid in so many areas so yes giving them more money will attract more professionals and higher quality teachers. In fact there are severe teacher shortages if you've been reading the news.

Also the money is needed in regards to funding certain programs for children with different learning needs, and keeping certain programs alive. So no you shouldn't just throw money at it you should give them more money and use it in the right places.

And again just because you think Not all parents provide great environments for learning is a terrible argument to say we shouldn't pay to provide good learning environments for children out of the home. You still have yet to recognize this.

As far as defense you mentioned that if defense is cut you might lose your job. I was just being helpful and saying if we cut wasteful defense spending and put it towards important things like education, You could just find work there.

 

[NutBucket]

So basically we're back to my original point of government spending not accomplishing anything.

Bam.

 

[Torn Mind]

Taxing the rich (the multimillionaires) for their stupid luxuries. No income tax but every time they wanna show the world how rich they are by buying something stupid or uncommon that they REALLY could live without, tax their butts off!

Or at very least, tax them at the same rate we pay. Most rich people pay very little tax due to all the loopholes etc. Trump for example pays less than $1,000 in taxes per year. I pay more than that in a month. Not sure what good it would do as far as inflation goes though, but yes they should have to pay their share like the rest of us. though taxes need to be lower overall, we pay too much in general. Property, income, sales, carbon, some places even have inheritance tax etc... all these taxes really add up.

Tax the rich sentiment usually never actually hits the biggest rich guys but rather the faceless inbetweeners. From homely Main St, to kinda big but not that big earners, etc. Taxes are general policy, not a method to live personal vendettas against a select few big figures.

 

[MrSquished]

So basically we're back to my original point of government spending not accomplishing anything.

Bam.

Is obtuse your middle name?

I just went over the history of how this nation became as prosperous as it did due to government spending, part of it being education, the military helps, infrastructure, etc.

All you have is a child like argument that spending is bad. How much spending do you think a government should spend then? Should we abolish public education and should the government stop investing in much infrastructure? What else is super wasteful?

Please tell us.

And also please tell us why if children are not getting a good learning environment at home there is no reason to provide one elsewhere. Because that is one of the silliest most childlike arguments I've ever heard and you can't defend it.

And how do other first world countries have much overall higher quality of living in key metrics with overall higher taxes and more spending per capita. How did that work?

 

[BoomerD]

In my city it's flat rate so there's not even an incentive to save. Goes up by around $5-10/mo every year. That's on top of the tax increases as the water is a totally separate charge. It's sometimes tempting to experiment with using it to run a turbine to make electricity and just leaving it on 24/7. May as well get my money's worth! I'd feel so wasteful doing that though.

We had been on flat rate water for decades...until Sacramento, (I always thought in an attempt to have more water to send to L.A.) passed a law doing away with flat rate water service.

 

[NutBucket]

I am no expert. Here is what I see. Taxes and government revenue keep going up and the basics are still crumbling. Roads going to crap, more homeless people than ever, inflation, etc.

I would be more supportive of government spending if it actually appeared to accomplish something. I see lots of "spending" with zero results. In many ways it appears to be going backwards.

 

[BoomerD]

I am no expert. Here is what I see. Taxes and government revenue keep going up and the basics are still crumbling. Roads going to crap, more homeless people than ever, inflation, etc.

I would be more supportive of government spending if it actually appeared to accomplish something. I see lots of "spending" with zero results. In many ways it appears to be going backwards.

I think the more money they throw at the homeless problem, the worse the problem gets.

 

[Torn Mind]

Is obtuse your middle name?

I just went over the history of how this nation became as prosperous as it did due to government spending, part of it being education, the military helps, infrastructure, etc.

All you have is a child like argument that spending is bad. How much spending do you think a government should spend then? Should we abolish public education and should the government stop investing in much infrastructure? What else is super wasteful?

Please tell us.

And also please tell us why if children are not getting a good learning environment at home there is no reason to provide one elsewhere. Because that is one of the silliest most childlike arguments I've ever heard and you can't defend it.

And how do other first world countries have much overall higher quality of living in key metrics with overall higher taxes and more spending per capita. How did that work?

Pouring money onto individuals of which it will have no effect is not money well used. You think in terms of ideals, not actions. The action being the transfer of human capital into the mind of a student. Someone not willing to accept transfer will unlikely be moved by whatever shadow spending.
The actions of the parent who cares can open the door to students whose default is to shut it and do "fun things".

The actions of a parent who defends their child's misconduct by saying "my child deserves a better grade" or channeling a culture of not showing features like their oppressor's race will direct their children towards a non-responsive attitude to accepting education.

The general environment of a classroom will always be impersonal to start with and often antagonistic because that's what the majority of kids tend to do.

If direct funding was towards a targeted program in which problematic kids receive more direct intervention or some role model guidance, that may have an effect, but that is different than paying teachers more.

In addition, NutBucket's comments seem to be based on context in LA, where the supposed "good guys" in politics have a dominant monopoly to do whatever they want. His comments are contextual and in response to his local environment. You appear to deal in absolutes, in which the usual cookie cutter list "government should do things" is highlighted.

 

[NutBucket]

Seems Appropriate:

 

[MrSquished]

I am no expert. Here is what I see. Taxes and government revenue keep going up and the basics are still crumbling. Roads going to crap, more homeless people than ever, inflation, etc.

I would be more supportive of government spending if it actually appeared to accomplish something. I see lots of "spending" with zero results. In many ways it appears to be going backwards.

Well this is partly because you don't know the big picture, and have opinions like - there is no point to providing a healthy learning environment for children outside the home because some homes have bad parenting. You also ignore evidence how things like good government spending gave us the wealth we have now via things like education and infrastructure. You seem to have no ability for nuance and no ability to discern between bad and good spending, nor do you seem able to look outside the US and see how other countries manage to do better in some areas of spending that we could learn from. You think that a teacher shortage and teachers finding other employment due to shitty wages and hours has nothing to do with money - even though increasing their pay would be a big deal in solving this.

 

[MrSquished]

Pouring money onto individuals of which it will have no effect is not money well used. You think in terms of ideals, not actions. The action being the transfer of human capital into the mind of a student. Someone not willing to accept transfer will unlikely be moved by whatever shadow spending.
The actions of the parent who cares can open the door to students whose default is to shut it and do "fun things".

The actions of a parent who defends their child's misconduct by saying "my child deserves a better grade" or channeling a culture of not showing features like their oppressor's race will direct their children towards a non-responsive attitude to accepting education.

The general environment of a classroom will always be impersonal to start with and often antagonistic because that's what the majority of kids tend to do.

If direct funding was towards a targeted program in which problematic kids receive more direct intervention or some role model guidance, that may have an effect, but that is different than paying teachers more.

In addition, NutBucket's comments seem to be based on context in LA, where the supposed "good guys" in politics have a dominant monopoly to do whatever they want. His comments are contextual and in response to his local environment. You appear to deal in absolutes, in which the usual cookie cutter list "government should do things" is highlighted.

Blah blah. So what do you think we should do abut education spending. From here it sounds like a waste to you - so should we cut it altogether or just mostly?

 

[Red Squirrel]

Tax the rich sentiment usually never actually hits the biggest rich guys but rather the faceless inbetweeners. From homely Main St, to kinda big but not that big earners, etc. Taxes are general policy, not a method to live personal vendettas against a select few big figures.

Pretty much. They tend to hit the middle class more. I make close to 90k, I'm technically rich... except because costs of living keep going up, I'm far from rich. But money wise, I do make very good money and taxed accordingly.

We need lower taxes across the board, like 1/10th of what they are now, and for the very rich people like millionaires, they just need to tax them at the same rate as us. Doesn't need to be crazy just get rid of the loopholes where they can get away with paying little to nothing. Overall there also needs to be more responsible spending. Seems every day you hear something about the government spending millions or even billions on something really dumb. Or money that is simply not even accounted for.

 

[sdifox]

Pretty much. They tend to hit the middle class more. I make close to 90k, I'm technically rich... except because costs of living keep going up, I'm far from rich. But money wise, I do make very good money and taxed accordingly.

We need lower taxes across the board, like 1/10th of what they are now, and for the very rich people like millionaires, they just need to tax them at the same rate as us. Doesn't need to be crazy just get rid of the loopholes where they can get away with paying little to nothing. Overall there also needs to be more responsible spending. Seems every day you hear something about the government spending millions or even billions on something really dumb. Or money that is simply not even accounted for.

I am sure you spending money you don't have helps.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I think the more money they throw at the homeless problem, the worse the problem gets.

Yep my city is a good example of this. We have way more homeless now than before. The homeless shelter is probably the worse thing that ever happened here and there's been lot of controversy over it because it has turned downtown into a dangerous place. I genuinely feel bad for the legit ones who just ran into unfortunate circumstances like losing their job and not being able to pay their bills anymore, but a lot of those people are people who just want to do drugs and crime so they spend any money they do have on drugs instead of helping themselves and lot of them steal too.

The best way any government can help people is by taking less money in first place.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I am sure you spending money you don't have helps.

Still have to live a little. But some of it is also an investment. Like I did spend 5k so far my wood stove and materials for it but that will basically pay itself off in 3 years. So at the end it's basically an investment.

The snowblower was not really necessary though... That was 2 grand I could have gotten away without spending.

Been a long time since I spent anything on computer stuff though. Some of my servers are pushing 10 years old.

 

[RPD]

Most people that say rich need to pay more or their fair share, how much exactly is "their fair share"? How about we just fix tax loop holes? I pay plenty in federal and state taxes. California spends near the top per student for K-12 yet is near the bottom in standardized testing. Throwing money at the problem doesn't help. School choice would go a long ways (which semi addresses how the current local tax system works, eg poor neighborhoods get the least amount of money, when it should be equal for a state or county).

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Most people that say rich need to pay more or their fair share, how much exactly is "their fair share"? How about we just fix tax loop holes? I pay plenty in federal and state taxes. California spends near the top per student for K-12 yet is near the bottom in standardized testing. Throwing money at the problem doesn't help. School choice would go a long ways (which semi addresses how the current local tax system works, eg poor neighborhoods get the least amount of money, when it should be equal for a state or county).

Tax everything over $100m to start with. That includes non-realized stocks and assets.

 

[Brainonska511]

Seems Appropriate:
View attachment 75587

Sovereign debt and budgeting != Household debt and budgeting.

Let me know when you become an immortal entity, your creditors start taking NutBucket money, and you gain the power to tax.

 

[RPD]

Tax everything over $100m to start with. That includes non-realized stocks and assets.

Curious, how would you tax non-realized stocks? You realize it's a double edge sword if you open up this can of worms.

 

[sdifox]

Still have to live a little. But some of it is also an investment. Like I did spend 5k so far my wood stove and materials for it but that will basically pay itself off in 3 years. So at the end it's basically an investment.

The snowblower was not really necessary though... That was 2 grand I could have gotten away without spending.

Been a long time since I spent anything on computer stuff though. Some of my servers are pushing 10 years old.

LoL how much was the truck and how much is your mortgage? It adds up you know?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Curious, how would you tax non-realized stocks? You realize it's a double edge sword if you open up this can of worms.

Force a sale, give them a 'you won at humaning' award, tax whatever's over 100m and they're banned from participating in investment from that point forward.

 

[RPD]

Force a sale, give them a 'you won at humaning' award, tax whatever's over 100m and they're banned from participating in investment from that point forward.

Wow, I was bracing for a bad answer but this is next level bad.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Wow, I was bracing for a bad answer but this is next level bad.

Why do you think it's bad?