Palestinians using the UN to bypass recognizing Israel...

[Lemon law]

Just more EK whistling past the graveyard. I joined this forum in 11/2007 and that was over 7 years ago. At at a time when Israeli credibility was already badly eroding, and only a crazy person would assert Israel is now in a better position than it was, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago, 2 years ago, one year ago, or even two weeks ago.

I don't taker any credit for the recent huge erosion of Israeli credibility, but to deny the loss of Israeli world credibility is only a fools game.

But go ahead EK, stick to your quote of "it makes each day enjoyable."

 

[Jhhnn]

How dense are you?? You take what everyone in good faith posts and you twist it if you do not agree with it.....

You know for 9 months israel stopped all settlements in good faith......where were the Palestinians to uphold their part of the agreement.......

Oh, please. Good faith is meaningless in the context of believing in lies.

Deeds, not words, are the true test of sincerity, and by that standard the Netanyahu govt's sincerity requires total suspension of disbelief.

It's extremely dishonest to cite the Oslo accords, given that Netanyahu has boasted, on video, that he killed them. It's also extremely dishonest in the context of article 31 of the agreement-

The Fourth Geneva Convention, ratified by Israel in June 1951 and which was not superceded by the Oslo Agreements, prohibits Israel from establishing colonies in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Article 49 (6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention states “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” The Oslo Agreements reaffirm this position. Article 31 of the Interim Agreement provides that “the two parties view the West Bank and Gaza Strip as a single territorial unit, the integrity and status of which will be preserved during the interim period.” Article 31 also provides that “neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations.”

http://www.nad-plo.org/etemplate.php?id=67

If the PLO broke the accords by going to the UN, it was only because of the ongoing violations by Israel. Settlements *do not* preserve the integrity of the territorial unit of the West Bank, no matter how desperately you want to claim otherwise.

When the Pals talk with the Israelis, they get nowhere, because that's obviously where the party wielding the power, the occupying party, the Israelis, want it to go. They clearly intend no two state solution, at all, something their deeds make quite clear to anybody not swayed by their extremely effective propaganda. They intend to keep doing what they've been doing since 1967. If they intended a two state solution, then UN recognition of the Pals would merely be a step in that direction, not a reason to announce more settlements.

Is this how we define "American Exceptionalism"- being dupes for the Israelis?

 

[Screech]

Palestinians have been playing the innocent hurt PR game since '67. That has had great influence with the world's perception.

Nothing states that they can not try to setup some additional advantage in negotions. However, they need to make sure that in the process; they do not overstep their bounds.

Look what the Palestinians recently did; they kidnapped and held a soldier for many years; which helped triggered an Israeli attack on Gaza. then Israel releses 1000+ Palestinains prisoners for this one man.

Seems like the Palestinains used that advantage. But is also shows how cheap they value life.

Sure -- I don't disagree here. My only point is that it is silly to say that Israel can demand peace negotiations without preconditions (like no settlement building) while also setting a bunch of preconditions necessary (no rocket attacks, must recognize israel and not be affiliated with a terrorist organization, etc.....) to have those same talks.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Just more EK whistling past the graveyard. I joined this forum in 11/2007 and that was over 7 years ago. At at a time when Israeli credibility was already badly eroding, and only a crazy person would assert Israel is now in a better position than it was, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago, 2 years ago, one year ago, or even two weeks ago.

I don't taker any credit for the recent huge erosion of Israeli credibility, but to deny the loss of Israeli world credibility is only a fools game.

But go ahead EK, stick to your quote of "it makes each day enjoyable."

Can you point to one prediction you made that was something bad is going to happen to Israel that has come true?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Sure -- I don't disagree here. My only point is that it is silly to say that Israel can demand peace negotiations without preconditions (like no settlement building) while also setting a bunch of preconditions necessary (no rocket attacks, must recognize israel and not be affiliated with a terrorist organization, etc.....) to have those same talks.

The Israeli conditions are what the end result will have to be for peace.
The Palestinian conditions are what has to happen before any talks of peace

 

[EagleKeeper]

Oh, please. Good faith is meaningless in the context of believing in lies.

Deeds, not words, are the true test of sincerity, and by that standard the Netanyahu govt's sincerity requires total suspension of disbelief.

It's extremely dishonest to cite the Oslo accords, given that Netanyahu has boasted, on video, that he killed them. It's also extremely dishonest in the context of article 31 of the agreement-



http://www.nad-plo.org/etemplate.php?id=67

If the PLO broke the accords by going to the UN, it was only because of the ongoing violations by Israel. Settlements *do not* preserve the integrity of the territorial unit of the West Bank, no matter how desperately you want to claim otherwise.

When the Pals talk with the Israelis, they get nowhere, because that's obviously where the party wielding the power, the occupying party, the Israelis, want it to go. They clearly intend no two state solution, at all, something their deeds make quite clear to anybody not swayed by their extremely effective propaganda. They intend to keep doing what they've been doing since 1967. If they intended a two state solution, then UN recognition of the Pals would merely be a step in that direction, not a reason to announce more settlements.

Is this how we define "American Exceptionalism"- being dupes for the Israelis?

Deed not words:
Israel has asked for peace and security. The Palestinians are unwilling to grant such. Only because of the last truce and Hamas getting clobbered did they actually offer accountability and restraint. It had taken 64 years for such to come from the Palestinians.
Last time such was offered, it lasted less than 48 hours. This time it may hold long enough for something to succeed.

Palestinians have not talked to Israel without preconditions. Most time Israel ignores those knowing that progress might be made if they ate back burnered.

 

[Jhhnn]

Deed not words:
Israel has asked for peace and security. The Palestinians are unwilling to grant such. Only because of the last truce and Hamas getting clobbered did they actually offer accountability and restraint. It had taken 64 years for such to come from the Palestinians.
Last time such was offered, it lasted less than 48 hours. This time it may hold long enough for something to succeed.

Palestinians have not talked to Israel without preconditions. Most time Israel ignores those knowing that progress might be made if they ate back burnered.

If Israel wants peace, they can show it by not waging war, which is what settlements really are, a form of warfare. If peace were achieved, they'd have to end settlement, and they obviously have no intention of ending settlement, ever.

Whatever they lose from Palestinian resistance in terms of security they more than compensate for with occupation & expropriation or they wouldn't have been doing it for two generations.

Israel has the power to largely define their own destiny, and that's exactly what they're doing at the expense of the Palestinians.

 

[Screech]

The Israeli conditions are what the end result will have to be for peace.
The Palestinian conditions are what has to happen before any talks of peace

You could switch Palestinian and Israeli in the above and it would be equally true.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You could switch Palestinian and Israeli in the above and it would be equally true.

not true at all......so sorry!!

 

[Screech]

not true at all......so sorry!!

And why is

The Palestinian conditions are what the end result will have to be for peace.
The Israeli conditions are what has to happen before any talks of peace

any less true than the converse? (and "it isn't" is not an answer).

edit: This "we cannot talk to them, they are our enemies" line of thinking is both dangerous and retarded. It is not how the cuban missile crisis was ended and it is not how this will end either.

 

[Harabec]

And why is

The Palestinian conditions are what the end result will have to be for peace.
The Israeli conditions are what has to happen before any talks of peace

any less true than the converse? (and "it isn't" is not an answer).

edit: This "we cannot talk to them, they are our enemies" line of thinking is both dangerous and retarded. It is not how the cuban missile crisis was ended and it is not how this will end either.

Unfortunately I don't see how we can "talk" to the current Hamas leadership that strictly demands our complete destruction as the only true way.

Should we decide to leave Gaza alone? open up the waters for free trade, let em build a decent port but cut off electricity, water, trade and medical treatment between us.

 

[Lemon law]

As Ek asks me, LL, "Can you point to one prediction you made that was something bad is going to happen to Israel that has come true? "

Yes, among other things, I predicted that Abbas would take their case to the UN general assembly and Israel would get badly out voted. The only thing I got wrong there, is that I underestimated how badly Israel would be outvoted.

But one thing I may have got wrong is the staying power of the freedom flotillas, as that is a non-issue now. Simply because there is no more Mubarak Egypt remaining to enforce the other half of the Israeli embargo of the Gaza. Effectively meaning there no real world need for a world show of force to end a kaput Israeli embargo of Gaza.

I also predicted the current Netanyuhu strategy is untenable, and I have to say, I am spot on on that prediction. I can't say I am delighted in that, because I would rather have a win win negotiated solution rather than see Israel become the new Nazi Germany playing the military card it can't win at.

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of EK's rose colored glasses, maybe this link better defines it. As Netanyuhu now accuses the EU of having double standards after their 11/29/2012 UN vote.

http://news.yahoo.com/israels-netanyahu-world-double-standards-225657309.html

As all I can say is maybe Netanyuhu is right, Israeli quadruple standards surely trump mere EU double standards. Or maybe not, as Netanyuhu bullshit went over like a lead balloon, not in only the EU, but the rest of whole world as well.

As Netanyuhu convinces only himself.

 

[Screech]

Unfortunately I don't see how we can "talk" to the current Hamas leadership that strictly demands our complete destruction as the only true way.

In the cold war, the communists insisted that capitalism would fall, communism would take over everywhere, etc. So when the cuban missile crisis occurred, we would have been better off just bombing everything instead of trying diplomacy........right?

Its not like entering negotiations is gonna set off nukes in tel aviv or something. Judging from the way people describe it, you'd think that is going to happen....

Should we decide to leave Gaza alone? open up the waters for free trade, let em build a decent port but cut off electricity, water, trade and medical treatment between us.

Honestly that is the end game as I see it, but there needs to probably be at least semi-normalized diplomatic relations before that happens. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la la la" sure isn't going to get you very far in that direction.

 

[Harabec]

You are asking for diplomacy after many years of trying that. Remember that we, now, here, are looking at things at a single point of time, like it is THE given situation.
However, it is not.

The current situation (once again I must laugh at the attention we get due to us being Jews. We're a silly little sandbox of heaven compared to our neighboring countries, for the palestinians in the west bank as well) is, as always, the sum of different parts of our history.
Some good, some bad, some have caused us to lose hope in this "peace" process, which is nothing like a cold war with a country far away.

The daily life here is NOT as simple as terrorists like Lemon Law would have you believe.
I am currently working for Flying Cargo (parent corp - DHL), we work daily with people from Ramallah and such delivering shipments from the Ashdod harbor.

I think the main problem today is that politics and religious ideologies (among other things, like Iranian intervention in Gaza) rule the people on all sides here, making our own wishes for a quiet life irrelevant and unimportant.

 

[Lemon law]

You are asking for diplomacy after many years of trying that. Remember that we, now, here, are looking at things at a single point of time, like it is THE given situation.
However, it is not.

The current situation (once again I must laugh at the attention we get due to us being Jews. We're a silly little sandbox of heaven compared to our neighboring countries, for the palestinians in the west bank as well) is, as always, the sum of different parts of our history.
Some good, some bad, some have caused us to lose hope in this "peace" process, which is nothing like a cold war with a country far away.

The daily life here is NOT as simple as terrorists like Lemon Law would have you believe.
I am currently working for Flying Cargo (parent corp - DHL), we work daily with people from Ramallah and such delivering shipments from the Ashdod harbor.

I think the main problem today is that politics and religious ideologies (among other things, like Iranian intervention in Gaza) rule the people on all sides here, making our own wishes for a quiet life irrelevant and unimportant.

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All hail to the generosity of Harabec. Why, if Harabec only lived 140 years ago, he could have delivered more watermellons to our American African slaves. And in so doing so, made the lot of slaves marginally better, and in doing so, have prevented the civil war and we could still have slavery as the law of the land.

Or if Harabec had lived only a 100 years ago, he could have delivered more petticoats and perfume to American feminists who had the audacity to ask for the right to vote. As only wiser American males would have the right to vote today.

And still all hail to Harabec who delvers to some aid to Palestinians in the West Bank, and claims his help makers their lives marginally better. But if Harabec claims his help and generosity will substitute for the Palestinians being robbed of all their human rights, Harabec is stark raving insane.

Then Harabec has the unmitigated gall to call me a advocate of terrorism, when terrorism, basically a 6000 year old tactic, is merely a symptom and not a cause of social injustice. And the only way to reduce terrorism is to reduce social injustice.

As Harabec is also in denial of reality, when the entire world voted, on 11/29/2012 to label Israel as the #1 cause of terrorism in the mid-east. And to affirm that Palestinians have the same human rights as everyone else. So tell me again, Harabec, why my non-existent advocacy of terrorism influenced in any way, the 11/29/2012 UN vote in the UN general assembly.

 

[Screech]

You are asking for diplomacy after many years of trying that. Remember that we, now, here, are looking at things at a single point of time, like it is THE given situation.
However, it is not.

The current situation (once again I must laugh at the attention we get due to us being Jews. We're a silly little sandbox of heaven compared to our neighboring countries, for the palestinians in the west bank as well) is, as always, the sum of different parts of our history.
Some good, some bad, some have caused us to lose hope in this "peace" process, which is nothing like a cold war with a country far away.

The daily life here is NOT as simple as terrorists like Lemon Law would have you believe.
I am currently working for Flying Cargo (parent corp - DHL), we work daily with people from Ramallah and such delivering shipments from the Ashdod harbor.

I think the main problem today is that politics and religious ideologies (among other things, like Iranian intervention in Gaza) rule the people on all sides here, making our own wishes for a quiet life irrelevant and unimportant.

I'm not asking for a magical diplomatic solution, though, nor am I asking that israel must give up its existence or anything silly. I am simply suggesting that refusing to even consider diplomacy out of spite/hatred/ "we don't negotiate with terrorists" is a pointless strategy. The cold war analogy is sound because during the cuban missile crisis, it wasn't a country far away.....it was the possibility of nuclear warfare, here. But diplomacy worked there....instead of things spiraling into world war 3.

I do agree with most of what you posted, though, in particular the last bit. I think the leaders generally are assholes.

Also, random off topic........getting a DHL account set up right now. woot!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All hail to the generosity of Harabec. Why, if Harabec only lived 140 years ago, he could have delivered more watermellons to our American African slaves. And in so doing so, made the lot of slaves marginally better, and in doing so, have prevented the civil war and we could still have slavery as the law of the land.

Or if Harabec had lived only a 100 years ago, he could have delivered more petticoats and perfume to American feminists who had the audacity to ask for the right to vote. As only wiser American males would have the right to vote today.

And still all hail to Harabec who delvers to some aid to Palestinians in the West Bank, and claims his help makers their lives marginally better. But if Harabec claims his help and generosity will substitute for the Palestinians being robbed of all their human rights, Harabec is stark raving insane.

Then Harabec has the unmitigated gall to call me a advocate of terrorism, when terrorism, basically a 6000 year old tactic, is merely a symptom and not a cause of social injustice. And the only way to reduce terrorism is to reduce social injustice.

As Harabec is also in denial of reality, when the entire world voted, on 11/29/2012 to label Israel as the #1 cause of terrorism in the mid-east. And to affirm that Palestinians have the same human rights as everyone else. So tell me again, Harabec, why my non-existent advocacy of terrorism influenced in any way, the 11/29/2012 UN vote in the UN general assembly.

Gee whiz Batman, I don't remember a vote asking who was the leading cause of terrorism, but in your "logic" you can make a fish into a tree. Let me guess- blacks would be the #1 cause of racism. After all, like Israel they have the nerve to exist.