Palestinians using the UN to bypass recognizing Israel...

[Jhhnn]

Last settlement freeze requested by the Palestinians was approved by Israel and for 9 months the Palestinians never showed.

It was only a temporary freeze. Israel has never shown any intent of ceasing settlements, or of withdrawing from any official ones already established. They'll have to do that to have a "two state solution", obviously, given their penetration of the West Bank.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

Despite the blather, Israel obviously intends perpetual occupation & increased settlement. Belief in anything to the contrary is delusion.

 

[JEDIYoda]

It was only a temporary freeze. Israel has never shown any intent of ceasing settlements, or of withdrawing from any official ones already established. They'll have to do that to have a "two state solution", obviously, given their penetration of the West Bank.....

ahhh...I get it more excuses.....

 

[Lemon law]

Last settlement freeze requested by the Palestinians was approved by Israel and for 9 months the Palestinians never showed.( total bullshit, Israel never had a total settlement freeze. As Israel stopped settling in only one area but kept settling in other areas. A partial settlement freeze feeds no bulldogs. )

At present, the legit Palestinian elected government is in Gaze, not the West Bank. ( More bullshit, from EK. )

That is the critical election that keeps getting postponed. ( If the above bullshit is invalid, this EK is false also. But now that the entire world voted overwhelmingly for Palestinians rights on 11/29/2012, who represents Palestinian rights will be a future but not a past consideration. )

LL Israeli election concerns are a non issue again. ( That EK is yet to be seen, as Israeli elections are not scheduled until 1/22/2013. Right now it may look like Bozo Netanyuhu will win the Israeli elections, but if the larger world refuses to support that fool of a Government, even the USA may be forced to desert Israel. As Netanjuhu is a typical megalomaniac, who has learned a bad habit. In assuming that no matter how crazy he is, he will always get away with it. Which often can work out very well, until that fine day, when the megalomaniac finally outrageously over reaches. And then the bottom drops out. The story of Napoleon, the story of Peter Botha, the story of Hitler, the story of Japan. I could go on, but any Israeli support of Netanyuhu will leave the Israeli government cursing for a brusing. Or let me put it this way to you EK, when the world already overwhelming dope slapped Israel twice in the UN in the past 10 ten days, only a fool would continue being bullish on Israeli defiance and foot dragging. After all, EK, who are you trying to convince, this forum or the larger world who have already spoken? )

Should Hamas again win, will they authorize Abbas and company to represent them in negotiating with Israel.( A question yet to be seen. )

Given that Oslo is dead, where will both sides move on to?

( Then Israel loses all legitimacy, in continuing its military occupation of disputed territory. And Israeli violations of the Geneva convention and UN rules. As earth to EK, the larger world has spoken and has said, Israel can no longer keep violating the human rights of 35% of its population. The time for Israeli bullshit has already expired. )

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Israel has been free to do that all along, at least the settlement issue. But they haven't. They could declare an end to it any time they choose.

Might want to evaluate their intentions in light of their actions...

Where did Hamas say Israel has a right to exist under any conditions? From what has been quoted the only Israeli is a dead one. Might want to read up on that.

It's hard to trust someone who has your murder is their reason to be.

 

[Darwin333]

(3) The pro-Israeli fan clubber on this thread can call me an idiot in the small minority to their hearts content, but they still can't deny the rest of the wold just dope slapped Israel, first by a 15 to one margin, and next by almost a 30 to 1 margin. As many in the US Government are becoming aware that Israel is a growing US huge liability.

You and I have very different definitions of the phrase "dope slap". From what I understand of the ramifications, that wasn't even a "stern look"....

 

[Darwin333]

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The problem with that assertion lies in the fact that the government of Israel has been denying the Palestinian people of all their human rights for well over 65 years.

Why should the current government of Israel ask that their human rights be respected when they don't respect the human rights of others? Which is, IMHO, why the UN has voted so strongly against Israel. As its in the interests of everyone in the world to have a win win peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. And no one in the world recognizes the clear Bozo Netanyuhu Israeli attempt to pig all of Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. Which would leave the Palestinians with nothing. And merely kick the can down the road until the only remaining option is binding third party arbitration.

This is an honest question, other than after being defeated in war (or perhaps about to be) when has a much stronger nation agreed to binding 3rd party negotiations with a much much weaker foe? It just doesn't make sense for any nation in a similar situation to do that, what do they have to gain?

Maybe the people of Israel can take some comfort in the EU position that they will not engage in economic sanctions against Israeli at this point in time, but that can change very swiftly in even the near time future.

LOL! Wanna buy a bridge? No economic sanctions will be levied against Israel, I am willing to bet real money on this.

 

[Darwin333]

( Then Israel loses all legitimacy, in continuing its military occupation of disputed territory. And Israeli violations of the Geneva convention and UN rules. As earth to EK, the larger world has spoken and has said, Israel can no longer keep violating the human rights of 35% of its population. The time for Israeli bullshit has already expired. )

Wait, didn't the Palestinians just declare themselves a nation or some other country recognized them as a nation or something? If so, how can Israel be treating 35% of its own population so badly, assuming you are talking about the Palestinians? If that is indeed the case, they are treating their enemies "badly" which is a very different thing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You and I have very different definitions of the phrase "dope slap". From what I understand of the ramifications, that wasn't even a "stern look"....

Gotta take what you get I suppose.

 

[Jhhnn]

It was only a temporary freeze. Israel has never shown any intent of ceasing settlements, or of withdrawing from any official ones already established. They'll have to do that to have a "two state solution", obviously, given their penetration of the West Bank.....

ahhh...I get it more excuses.....

No- you just make them, for Israel.

 

[Lemon law]

It was only a temporary freeze. Israel has never shown any intent of ceasing settlements, or of withdrawing from any official ones already established. They'll have to do that to have a "two state solution", obviously, given their penetration of the West Bank.....

ahhh...I get it more excuses.....

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As JediY maybe asks the better fool question. As Israel has a 20 year track record of talking and talking while settling and settling on disputed territory in direct violation of the Geneva convention and all UN rules.

But now that the jig is finally up on that Israeli tactic, and the world community has spoken in the UN on 11/29/2012, what we may be seeing is is a world consensus that Israel mist get real and end more illegal Israeli settlement on disputed territory. As Bozo Netanyuhu may realize the jig is up, and therefore races to get more illegal Israeli settlement before the door slam shut on more illegal settlement.

As we can ask the question, has Israel waited too long? In the hopes that Israel can claim any Israeli past settlement gives them some legitimacy in claiming that existing illegal Israeli settlements on disputed territory should be retained by Israel?

Or will Israel instead find out, that the Pals say, Israel thank you very much for building all that excellent housing for us, and now take your illegal settlers back into 1948 Israel and get out of our territory.

And in which case, where would the fault lie? As I maintain Israeli government knew the illegal risks when they encouraged Israeli settlers to settle on territory they had no right to settle on. And if all those illegal Israeli settlers lose their homes and investments, the blame 100% lies on the heads of past Israeli governments who promised something illegal in the first place.

 

[EagleKeeper]

( Then Israel loses all legitimacy, in continuing its military occupation of disputed territory. And Israeli violations of the Geneva convention and UN rules. As earth to EK, the larger world has spoken and has said, Israel can no longer keep violating the human rights of 35% of its population. The time for Israeli bullshit has already expired. )

what about violations by the Palestinians. Those do not count.

Until there is a legit Palestinians state; Israels has the final say.

 

[Jhhnn]

Where did Hamas say Israel has a right to exist under any conditions? From what has been quoted the only Israeli is a dead one. Might want to read up on that.

It's hard to trust someone who has your murder is their reason to be.

Heh. Hamas isn't in charge in the West Bank, yet that's where the Israelis are creating more settlements. Nor were they in charge of anything until 2006. They're just the excuse today, and the Israelis had plenty of excuses for the preceding 40 years...

From the Hamas charter-

Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions. The past and the present are full of evidence to that effect.

The Jewish State doesn't offer them even the other side of that, not in reality. All they offer is continued occupation under the guise of talks about a two state solution, someday, maybe, when they feel like it, if there's anything left for the Pals when they're done taking.

I doubt there will be.

Somewhere in the Israeli psyche there's the notion that the Pals can just be made to go away, be squeezed out, even though they have nowhere to go. It's what Israel has been working towards for decades.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Until the Palestinians sit down and settle up with Israel, all the claims of theillegal settlements are going to have no impact on the final picture.

The settlements may be a means to get the Palestinians to actually come to the table for serious talks; they have advances as far as they can in the UN.
Hams has painted itself into a corner as terms of responsibility for their actions.

Anything now can be considered to be one state attacking another; size and underdogs will have nothing to do with the results.

 

[Jhhnn]

Until the Palestinians sit down and settle up with Israel, all the claims of theillegal settlements are going to have no impact on the final picture.

The settlements may be a means to get the Palestinians to actually come to the table for serious talks; they have advances as far as they can in the UN.
Hams has painted itself into a corner as terms of responsibility for their actions.

Anything now can be considered to be one state attacking another; size and underdogs will have nothing to do with the results.

Too bad you can't be Joe Palestinian for six months or so, just to find out how "independent" occupied Palestine really is, even Gaza. They're not, not at all, and you should drop any pretense that they are. They're under military occupation, and have been for decades.

 

[DCal430]

Heh. Hamas isn't in charge in the West Bank, yet that's where the Israelis are creating more settlements. Nor were they in charge of anything until 2006. They're just the excuse today, and the Israelis had plenty of excuses for the preceding 40 years...

From the Hamas charter-



The Jewish State doesn't offer them even the other side of that, not in reality. All they offer is continued occupation under the guise of talks about a two state solution, someday, maybe, when they feel like it, if there's anything left for the Pals when they're done taking.

I doubt there will be.

Somewhere in the Israeli psyche there's the notion that the Pals can just be made to go away, be squeezed out, even though they have nowhere to go. It's what Israel has been working towards for decades.

It is clear HAMAS wants Islam to dominate the area and oppression of other religions. FYI Hamas has made it clear their will be no Jews in the area, and no israel. Israel is bad, but Hamas is terrible.


On a side note it was Fatah who requested the U.N recognition, and Fatah does support a two state solution.

 

[DCal430]

The fact that so many of you support eradicating Israel and Palestine is the reason their is no peace. You are all the same, all full of hate for each other.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Heh. Hamas isn't in charge in the West Bank, yet that's where the Israelis are creating more settlements. Nor were they in charge of anything until 2006. They're just the excuse today, and the Israelis had plenty of excuses for the preceding 40 years...

From the Hamas charter-



The Jewish State doesn't offer them even the other side of that, not in reality. All they offer is continued occupation under the guise of talks about a two state solution, someday, maybe, when they feel like it, if there's anything left for the Pals when they're done taking.

I doubt there will be.

Somewhere in the Israeli psyche there's the notion that the Pals can just be made to go away, be squeezed out, even though they have nowhere to go. It's what Israel has been working towards for decades.

So if Jews volunteer to live under Muslim rule then hamas will let them live, eh? Israel isn't perfect and they will need to compromise, but under that condition? Will you bend the knee as well?

 

[Lemon law]

So if Jews volunteer to live under Muslim rule then hamas will let them live, eh? Israel isn't perfect and they will need to compromise, but under that condition? Will you bend the knee as well?

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Point granted Haybasusa, as the world has somehow accepted the idea that either the Israelis or the Palestinians must prevail.

When the better idea is finding that middle ground where both the Palestinians and the Israelis can compromise and find a middle ground. After that, everyone in the mid-east has a common problem, in the lack of water. And the other new joker in the deck is how to fairly exploit new off shore gas deposits.

But still Haybasusa, its pro-Israeli fan clubbers like you and Bozo Metanyuhu that refuse to concede any ground in finding that soft landing. That requires, Israel must make the greater concessions given the fact that Israel has made the bulk of the past illegal gains.

As we can only wait and see what happens in the future.

 

[Jhhnn]

So if Jews volunteer to live under Muslim rule then hamas will let them live, eh? Israel isn't perfect and they will need to compromise, but under that condition? Will you bend the knee as well?

Heh. And Israel offers what, other than ongoing military occupation? Endless talk about a two state solution they could create simply by withdrawing?

I don't think that's politically possible for any Israeli govt, because they'd have to evacuate a fair % of their settlements to do it. So what we'll see is just more of the same political assassinations, occupation & resistance we've all become accustomed to, along with more settlements. Sooner or later, Israel will have to give up the charade of a two state solution, because they will have made it impossible with their actions on the ground. Basically, they already have, but their American fanbois will continue to claim otherwise, accept whatever justifications that Israel offers up, blame the Pals for lack of progress that the stronger party, Israel, doesn't even want & has done everything possible to prevent.

The PLO is equally delusional, but hope is all they've got.

 

[Lemon law]

Which is the other weird thing about the Jhhnn point, as Israel somehow now feels justified in punishing the Palestinians for daring to appeal to the UN. As now Israel has the stated intention of settling another 3000 thousand more illegal Israel settlers in the E-1 corridor.

And if Israel gets away with that, it will effectively kill all hopes for any possible two State solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

As Bozo Netanyuhu has basically crossed the Rubicon river, and has left Israel in an all or none gamble, either Israel will be left with nothing, or Israel may get to kick the can down the road a few years longer.

Either way, its a Israel will lose in the longer term under the Bozo Netanyuhu plan.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

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Point granted Haybasusa, as the world has somehow accepted the idea that either the Israelis or the Palestinians must prevail.

When the better idea is finding that middle ground where both the Palestinians and the Israelis can compromise and find a middle ground. After that, everyone in the mid-east has a common problem, in the lack of water. And the other new joker in the deck is how to fairly exploit new off shore gas deposits.

But still Haybasusa, its pro-Israeli fan clubbers like you and Bozo Metanyuhu that refuse to concede any ground in finding that soft landing. That requires, Israel must make the greater concessions given the fact that Israel has made the bulk of the past illegal gains.

As we can only wait and see what happens in the future.

I've said Israel needs to make compromises, however agreeing to let Hamas kill them isn't one of them.

So without diversion, does Hamas have an obligation to accept Israel's right to exist in as part of a solution? I wonder if you can do that.

 

[Jhhnn]

I've said Israel needs to make compromises, however agreeing to let Hamas kill them isn't one of them.

So without diversion, does Hamas have an obligation to accept Israel's right to exist in as part of a solution? I wonder if you can do that.

Let's be clear about the nature of Israel. Context matters. Does Hamas have an obligation to accept the right of the Jewish State to exist & expand into territory where they live? Force them out? Control their borders & trade? Impose military rule upon them? I think not.

For that matter, why should we, an egalitarian secular Democracy, even begin to recognize the rights of any state based on ethno-religious superiority, whether that's Israel or KSA?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Let's be clear about the nature of Israel. Context matters. Does Hamas have an obligation to accept the right of the Jewish State to exist

Yes, and until they do understand that Israel isn't going away there can be no peace.

Hamas is a terrorist organization whose armed wing ONLY commits acts of terror, they are absolutely no different than Al Qaueda in that respect but they ARE the elected government of the Palestinians.

Their leader gave a speech in the Fatah parliament not too long ago where he reinforced the idea that all Israelis AND Americans must die, the speech was much appreciated by the parliament.

This is no fucking little misunderstood gentle organisation we're talking about here, their leader wants YOU dead.

 

[Incorruptible]

Let's be clear about the nature of Israel. Context matters. Does Hamas have an obligation to accept the right of the Jewish State to exist & expand into territory where they live? Force them out? Control their borders & trade? Impose military rule upon them? I think not.

For that matter, why should we, an egalitarian secular Democracy, even begin to recognize the rights of any state based on ethno-religious superiority, whether that's Israel or KSA?

Will you condemn hamas and their killing of innocent people?

As well what is really is sickening is all the anti-semites attacking Israel, the only Jewish country and democracy in the middle east

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Yes, and until they do understand that Israel isn't going away there can be no peace.

Hamas is a terrorist organization whose armed wing ONLY commits acts of terror, they are absolutely no different than Al Qaueda in that respect but they ARE the elected government of the Palestinians.

Their leader gave a speech in the Fatah parliament not too long ago where he reinforced the idea that all Israelis AND Americans must die, the speech was much appreciated by the parliament.

This is no fucking little misunderstood gentle organisation we're talking about here, their leader wants YOU dead.

Meanwhile the Israelis are wayyyyy ahead in the who killed more innocents contest!

To deny that the Israelis have any major responsibility in this mess is really quite laughable.


Oh and this: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...mid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085

How convenient