Palestinians using the UN to bypass recognizing Israel...

[JEDIYoda]

Meanwhile the Israelis are wayyyyy ahead in the who killed more innocents contest!

To deny that the Israelis have any major responsibility in this mess is really quite laughable.


Oh and this: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...mid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085

How convenient

All here say from your article -- This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since...


There has never been a war fought where innocent people have not died...ever....

Are they really innocent if they allow the enemy to to live amongst them and fire rockets from schools and hospitals????

This is not a one sided pony show....

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Ah the moral justifications, they are indeed twisted.

 

[Lemon law]

As I said earlier, Netanyuhu and Liqid is not the guaranteed permanent leaders of Israel nor is Hamas the guaranteed future leaders of Gaza. Governments and people adapt to changing times, and if the world wants to remain bogged down in the zillion wrongs committed by Israel the Arab block, and the Palestinians, no progress can be made.

By the way, Hamas is not recognized as a terrorist organization by the bulk of the world. And certain nations call Israel a terrorist government.

Of course the other thing to mention is the Hamas officials are widely divided in terms of future moves and reconciling with fatah.

 

[EagleKeeper]

It was only a temporary freeze. Israel has never shown any intent of ceasing settlements, or of withdrawing from any official ones already established. They'll have to do that to have a "two state solution", obviously, given their penetration of the West Bank.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

Despite the blather, Israel obviously intends perpetual occupation & increased settlement. Belief in anything to the contrary is delusion.

The Palestinians wrote down in black and white what they demanded ISrael to do before the Palestinians came to the table.

Israel complied with the request verbatium.
they called the Palestinians bluff.

The Palestinians never showed.
After the requested time frame; Israel started up approving settlements; Only then did the Palestinians do anything - complain and want another freeze to show up.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Let's be clear about the nature of Israel. Context matters. Does Hamas have an obligation to accept the right of the Jewish State to exist & expand into territory where they live? Force them out? Control their borders & trade? Impose military rule upon them? I think not.

For that matter, why should we, an egalitarian secular Democracy, even begin to recognize the rights of any state based on ethno-religious superiority, whether that's Israel or KSA?

Context matters. You answered what you wish I had said, not what I did. I said that Israel would have to make compromises and that immediately does away with your point. If Israel is willing to compromise in good faith does Hamas have the obligation to recognize Israel? If not what possible reason would Israel have to accept an enemy who cannot be reconciled and will see it destroyed no matter what? That's the question I put to you or LL, who still ignores it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Of course the other thing to mention is the Hamas officials are widely divided in terms of future moves and reconciling with fatah.

There seems to be little disagreement with the desire to never recognize Israel under any circumstances.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Too bad you can't be Joe Palestinian for six months or so, just to find out how "independent" occupied Palestine really is, even Gaza. They're not, not at all, and you should drop any pretense that they are. They're under military occupation, and have been for decades.

Agreed. Occupation started by the Arabs and Palestinians bad judgement;
Kept up by the Egyptians and Jordanians.
stupidity then transfered the mantle to Israel.

Neither Jordan nor Egypt wanted is back.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Which is the other weird thing about the Jhhnn point, as Israel somehow now feels justified in punishing the Palestinians for daring to appeal to the UN. As now Israel has the stated intention of settling another 3000 thousand more illegal Israel settlers in the E-1 corridor.

And if Israel gets away with that, it will effectively kill all hopes for any possible two State solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

As Bozo Netanyuhu has basically crossed the Rubicon river, and has left Israel in an all or none gamble, either Israel will be left with nothing, or Israel may get to kick the can down the road a few years longer.

Either way, its a Israel will lose in the longer term under the Bozo Netanyuhu plan.

Israel is responding to the Palestinians going to the UN without an agreement.

That was something both sides agreed to at Olso - no unilateral action

At this point, you have a geasture by the UN only.
Israel still is in control;
The Palestinians have an election coming up to determine which path they want to go down.
the Palestinians do not want to come to the table to resolve the problems; so Israel will use the settlements as a throwaway card.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Meanwhile the Israelis are wayyyyy ahead in the who killed more innocents contest!

To deny that the Israelis have any major responsibility in this mess is really quite laughable.


Oh and this: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...mid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085

How convenient

How many innocents are deliberately targeted vs what the Palestinians target.

Israel attacks when attacked in might; surgical strikes are done in retailiation for militant actions.

 

[Lemon law]

There seems to be little disagreement with the desire ( Of hamas officials) to never recognize Israel under any circumstances.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who can forget, cicra 1940, Germany, Japan, and most of Europe were engaged in a war with the USA, Great Britain, and many other nations. While rounding up Jews, and systematically murdering Jews in gas chambers. Here we are in 2012, and Germany is the strongest supporter of Israel in the EU.

Or can we forget, circa 1961 or so Khrushchev of Russia was founding his shoe in te UN promising communism would bury capitalism.

Circa a few years later and the USA and the domino theory was warning us terrified American civilians, that if we did not stop communism in South Vietnam, we would fighting the Viet Cong in the streets of America.

And can we forget, Donald Rumsfeld whispering sweet nothings to Saddam Hussain, just be our guy in the mid-east and we will supply you with all kinds of WMD.

I only recite a short list here of endless examples.

But ask Hayabusa why he thinks that ONLY Hamas rhetoric is not amenable to the same changes in reality over time. And I also ask Haybasusa why he excuses the extremist Statements of Bozo Netanyuhu, Lieberman, and the even more crazed Israeli settler parties that are equally as disgusting. If not more.

As earth to Haybasusa, if you want to inspired by the statements of extremist nuts on both ends of an issue, all you will ever find is endless war and terrorism.

But when we empower moderates on both sides of any issues, people of good sense can always find that win win compromise.---------and when we talk about moderate people of good sense, Haybasusa, that sadly is not you, IMHO.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Some of us are able to see reality with rose glasses.

Hamas lives due to radical opposition to Israel.
Peace is mot good for them.

Best thing will be to wait when the Palestinian elections happen. That will give some hope for one view or another

 

[Jhhnn]

Heh. Standard Hasbara bullshit.

Who's the occupier & who's the occupied?

Who has the power?

Who has the brains to figure out that taking while talking about talking is a ruse for more taking, particularly when that scenario lasts 2 generations?

Israel intends to take as much of the West Bank as they possibly can, engage in perpetual occupation of the Pals. It's what they've done all along, and obviously won't change one bit as long as the US backs them.

Hamas? Israeli fanbois don't even begin to understand Hamas or its history. It came into being because of Israel's refusal to strike a deal with Fatah, with Israel playing Fatah and Hamas off against each other, and it's been downhill ever since-

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

Hamas suits Israel's purposes just fine, giving them an excuse to not deal with Fatah in good faith.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Heh. Standard Hasbara bullshit.

Who's the occupier & who's the occupied?

Who has the power?

Who has the brains to figure out that taking while talking about talking is a ruse for more taking, particularly when that scenario lasts 2 generations?

Israel intends to take as much of the West Bank as they possibly can, engage in perpetual occupation of the Pals. It's what they've done all along, and obviously won't change one bit as long as the US backs them.

Hamas? Israeli fanbois don't even begin to understand Hamas or its history. It came into being because of Israel's refusal to strike a deal with Fatah, with Israel playing Fatah and Hamas off against each other, and it's been downhill ever since-

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

Hamas suits Israel's purposes just fine, giving them an excuse to not deal with Fatah in good faith.

Fatah also does not want to deal in good faith. They have insisted on preconditions in order to talk. Palestinian actions against Israel have demonstrated that there is a segment of that want to destroy the country and Palestinian leaders tolerate/encourage such.

Settlements are the things that the Palestinians fear most from Israel, Israel will use that as leverage to get the Palestinians to negotiate.

When negotiating, you use every advantage you can amass.

 

[Screech]

Fatah also does not want to deal in good faith. They have insisted on preconditions in order to talk. Palestinian actions against Israel have demonstrated that there is a segment of that want to destroy the country and Palestinian leaders tolerate/encourage such.

Settlements are the things that the Palestinians fear most from Israel, Israel will use that as leverage to get the Palestinians to negotiate.

When negotiating, you use every advantage you can amass.

So israel is allowed to use every advantage it can amass, but the palestinians cannot?

Hey, I love israel as much as the next guy and, like you, think LL is loony, but I think that sounds a bit silly.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Hamas? Israeli fanbois don't even begin to understand Hamas or its history. It came into being because of Israel's refusal to strike a deal with Fatah, with Israel playing Fatah and Hamas off against each other, and it's been downhill ever since-

Oh I understand Hamas perfectly. I know how they came about, I know they are the child of the Muslim Brotherhood. I realize they want Israel wiped off the map and the extermination of all Jews (which you curiously choose not to include in you snippet of the Hamas charter). I also understand you, because when your feet were held to the fire, you ducked the question.

As far as the rest? Who has the "power"? The US or Bin Laden? Did that stop 9/11 from happening?

You and LL are quite the pair.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

time. And I also ask Haybasusa why he excuses the extremist Statements of Bozo Netanyuhu, Lieberman, and the even more crazed Israeli settler parties that are equally as disgusting. If not more.

As earth to Haybasusa, if you want to inspired by the statements of extremist nuts on both ends of an issue, all you will ever find is endless war and terrorism.

But when we empower moderates on both sides of any issues, people of good sense can always find that win win compromise.---------and when we talk about moderate people of good sense, Haybasusa, that sadly is not you, IMHO.

Earth to LL. What you stated before what I quoted of you is completely irrelevant, but thanks for proving yet again that you can't answer a straight question. Now you speak of "extremist statements."

OK, where does Netanyahu and Lieberman say the extermination of Muslims is effectively the ultimate good?

You fail yet again. You can't even say straight out that as part of an agreement between Palestine and Israel that Israel has the right to exist under any circumstance, that it has the right to be secure. In an agreement (you do know what that is, right?), those who do not espouse the destruction of Israel and Jews would have the same rights. A place to call their own and be secure. You'll insist on the latter, and cry that the former doesn't apply because Germany circumvented the Maginot Line or some such irrelevancy. You don't want a resolution, you want vengeance.

 

[Jhhnn]

Fatah also does not want to deal in good faith. They have insisted on preconditions in order to talk. Palestinian actions against Israel have demonstrated that there is a segment of that want to destroy the country and Palestinian leaders tolerate/encourage such.

Settlements are the things that the Palestinians fear most from Israel, Israel will use that as leverage to get the Palestinians to negotiate.

When negotiating, you use every advantage you can amass.

Preconditions like... a permanent halt to settlements, right?

Gee, Mr Wizard, what does it mean?

As a practical matter, Israel would have to abandon existing settlements for a Palestinian State to even exist, so why do they insist on retaining the option of creating more if they actually bargain in good faith?

Because they're not bargaining in good faith at all, certainly not under the Netanyahu govt. They're just stalling for more time to take more territory, which is perfectly obvious to the ROTW, if not to Israel's supporters in this country. Eventually, they'll need to drop such pretense, but not yet, not so long as it's still working for them.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Preconditions like... a permanent halt to settlements, right?

Gee, Mr Wizard, what does it mean?

As a practical matter, Israel would have to abandon existing settlements for a Palestinian State to even exist, so why do they insist on retaining the option of creating more if they actually bargain in good faith?

Because they're not bargaining in good faith at all, certainly not under the Netanyahu govt. They're just stalling for more time to take more territory, which is perfectly obvious to the ROTW, if not to Israel's supporters in this country. Eventually, they'll need to drop such pretense, but not yet, not so long as it's still working for them.

How dense are you?? You take what everyone in good faith posts and you twist it if you do not agree with it.....

You know for 9 months israel stopped all settlements in good faith......where were the Palestinians to uphold their part of the agreement.......

 

[Lemon law]

Sadly, in terms of advancing equal human rights for Israelis and Palestinians, the past 64 years has been a total failure.

And part of that failure has been the track record of the USA that the world placed some trust in. As every US president since Truman has tried and failed to come up with a fair solution. And with the political US influence of AIPAC in only the USA, even the vast bulk of our US allies have zero remaining faith in the USA to broker any fair solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Which is now the #1 threat to world peace.

But food for thought for pro-Israeli fan clubbers, now that the USA has self disqualified itself as a broker for peace in the mid-east, it now becomes inevitable that some other nation will step up and assume that role. As the Brits, the French, the Russians, the Chinese, and many other nations are on the short list to assume that role. Even if the international court does not soon weigh in.

And then the corrosive influence of AIPAC that exist in only the USA will count for doodle squat. And given the way the world voted in the UN on 11/29/2012, both the USA and Israel are still in total denial at this point in time.

Go ahead, maybe the majority on this forum, call me a nut, but at least I can envision a soft landing for Israel and the Palestinians in the mid-east. As the other consideration becomes, I have also gone on record of opposing US foreign policy in Iraq, and Afghanistan, that has only won the USA no positive result and trillion dollar quagmires.

It does make me a Taliban fan boy, and in fact the opposite, but when US foreign policy stupidity, leaves the USA in second place in a beauty contest with the Taliban, all the rah rah USA cheering cannot change that fact. Unless the USA grows a brain and changes tactics. The USA is my country too, and why should I not advocate what I feel is be best for my country?

I am not not on this forum because I want to be popular, I have thick skin, and am usually always proved right in the end. The proof of my predictions are not as immediate as I predict, but as a student of world history, world changes are always glacially slow but still inevitable.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So israel is allowed to use every advantage it can amass, but the palestinians cannot?

Hey, I love israel as much as the next guy and, like you, think LL is loony, but I think that sounds a bit silly.

Palestinians have been playing the innocent hurt PR game since '67. That has had great influence with the world's perception.

Nothing states that they can not try to setup some additional advantage in negotions. However, they need to make sure that in the process; they do not overstep their bounds.

Look what the Palestinians recently did; they kidnapped and held a soldier for many years; which helped triggered an Israeli attack on Gaza. then Israel releses 1000+ Palestinains prisoners for this one man.

Seems like the Palestinains used that advantage. But is also shows how cheap they value life.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Go ahead, maybe the majority on this forum, call me a nut, but at least I can envision a soft landing for Israel and the Palestinians in the mid-east. As the other consideration becomes, I have also gone on record of opposing US foreign policy in Iraq, and Afghanistan, that has only won the USA no positive result and trillion dollar quagmires.

It does make me a Taliban fan boy, and in fact the opposite, but when US foreign policy stupidity, leaves the USA in second place in a beauty contest with the Taliban, all the rah rah USA cheering cannot change that fact. Unless the USA grows a brain and changes tactics. The USA is my country too, and why should I not advocate what I feel is be best for my country?

I am not not on this forum because I want to be popular, I have thick skin, and am usually always proved right in the end. The proof of my predictions are not as immediate as I predict, but as a student of world history, world changes are always glacially slow but still inevitable.

You do not envision a soft landing; you want the Palsetinians to have everything that they lost and to also bear no consequences for their actions.

You will not even come out and state that Israel has to have security from attacks from territory that Palstinians control and also that Israeli citizens should be able to feel secure outsdie of Israeli territory.

Youi wish to roll back time to '48.

You can pound your chest on how right you are with respect to non-ME issues; for the ME issues - you have yet to been proven right at any time.

You still have yet to show why Israel should be held responsible for Iran's actions against the world.
Another of your duck the issues.

 

[Lemon law]

We can also go back to the quote of EK, "Settlements are the things that the Palestinians fear most from Israel, Israel will use that as leverage to get the Palestinians to negotiate."

EK, you will get no argument from me, that Israel is using that settlement tactic, but given the fact its a clear violation of the Geneva convention, that Israel is a signatory to, you can change that statement that Israel is using a clearly illegal settlement tactics that violate international law.

And yes EK, if you bothered to read today's news, the international criminal courts may soon be asked to decide the matter.

As EK, your argument boils down to saying if a criminal robs a bank, they should have the right to keep their ill gained cash even if they don't get caught immediately. And also similar to what happen to Saddam Hussein in gulf war 1, after Saddam tried to annex Kuwait.

As to your argument the Pals refuse to negotiate, that was totally discredited when the entire Arab world was willing to talk to Israel in the 2008 Annapolis conference brokered by Condi Rice. And Israel pulled to same stunt of talking and talking and stalling and stalling.

But EK, you don't need to bother convincing this forum, when you can look at how the general Assembly voted on 11/29/2012 and beyond, to see how low present Israeli Government credibility has sunk. As Canada, the Czeck Republic, Panama, and even the USA are having second thoughts over any continued support of present Israeli government policies.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Duck and run.

Reward the Palestinians for bad behavior.

Who is going to remove the settlements.

Annapolis was a show. Hamas had stated they would not acknowledge Israel. The Arabs also had additional conditions for Israel in order to "acknowledge" them.

I do not need to convince this forum. I just need to point out the failure you are and the Palestinian shill you have become.

A massive list of failed statements continue to grow.
Another list if statements that you are unable to back up.

Makes each day enjoyable

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of how the EU is presently thinking, this link from Yahoo news may give mixed views.

http://news.yahoo.com/eu-mulling-dissuade-israel-settlement-expansion-124311041.html

As the EU seems unwilling to take strong action at this point in time, but before any of Netanyuhu's promised settlement are actually started in the E-1 area, a process that may take up to 2 years, its probable that the EU will take stronger action, as they all seem invested in the 2 state option. As those settlements would effectively end any possibility of a two State option.

As for Obama, who seems adverse to stirring up any AIPAC controversy in the USA, I don't hold out must hope for Obama making a strong stand against expanded illegal Israeli settlements. But I do wonder if Obama may choose to not veto every anti-Israeli resolution that is sure to be filed in the UN security council. That could somehow serve of a warning to Israeli ultra -rightists while giving increased credibility to Israeli government liberals and moderates ahead of the 1/22/2013 Israeli elections. As Obama can cherry pick which UN resolutions to not veto that only do minor damage to existing Israeli foreign policy.

After all, the Abbas decision to take their case to the UN general assembly is no surprise, as every knew it was coming for 2 years. And the USA and Israel have been engaged in a full court diplomatic press with every nation in the world for over a year. As the only surprise has been in how few nations voted the Israeli or US way.

 

[EagleKeeper]

In terms of how the EU is presently thinking, this link from Yahoo news may give mixed views.

http://news.yahoo.com/eu-mulling-dissuade-israel-settlement-expansion-124311041.html

As the EU seems unwilling to take strong action at this point in time, but before any of Netanyuhu's promised settlement are actually started in the E-1 area, a process that may take up to 2 years, its probable that the EU will take stronger action, as they all seem invested in the 2 state option. As those settlements would effectively end any possibility of a two State option.

As for Obama, who seems adverse to stirring up any AIPAC controversy in the USA, I don't hold out must hope for Obama making a strong stand against expanded illegal Israeli settlements. But I do wonder if Obama may choose to not veto every anti-Israeli resolution that is sure to be filed in the UN security council. That could somehow serve of a warning to Israeli ultra -rightists while giving increased credibility to Israeli government liberals and moderates ahead of the 1/22/2013 Israeli elections. As Obama can cherry pick which UN resolutions to not veto that only do minor damage to existing Israeli foreign policy.

After all, the Abbas decision to take their case to the UN general assembly is no surprise, as every knew it was coming for 2 years. And the USA and Israel have been engaged in a full court diplomatic press with every nation in the world for over a year. As the only surprise has been in how few nations voted the Israeli or US way.

Abbas was told well in advance the consequences of such actions would be. Both sides called the bluff. Question will be, which side will fare worse as each hand is exposed.

Right now, the Palestinians are being forced to pay their bills upfront. Israel has many other LEGAL actions that can be taken as retribution for Abbas actions.

Each will happen as a result of actions by the Palestinians or for them provided support for their actions against the agreement.

Better hope that Hamas is able to hold up their end. Failure will fully destroy Palestinian hopes and credibility.