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Palestinian UN bid enters unknown territory

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EagleKeeper

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CC you talk only about your one sided version of the past, I am talking the likely coming future. Netanyuihu has ruled out any real talks or compromise, and now the talk has already shifted to a Palestinian State declared in the general Assembly where the US has no veto. Early predictions are already saying the Palestinian side will win by a better than 2 to one margin or better.

As for Israel, its already paying the price in isolation, 13 months ago Israel had at least 3 nations it could call allies, now Israel has none. As for Iran, Israeli actions only makes Iran stronger. And as you should know the largest flotilla ever won't come until after June 12.

The Palestinians have ruled out any real talks. They want/demand preconditions but complain when Israel comes up with the same.

Also by trying an end around for statehood - they are in violation of their Oslo agreement. As if any Palestinian word on any agreement w/ respect to Israel means anything. There anything that ISrael has put in place along such framework is no longer a requirement or constraint.

If the UN authorizes a state of Palestine;what will be the borders. Israel is not going to roll over and has already defined what can be negotiated and what will not.

Should the Palestinians try to impose anything on ISrael; there will be a conflict.

The same will go with any attacks from any militant; Israel will do a Cast Lead #2 without allowing the UN to interfere.

And where will this massive flotilla go? It is not going to be protected by any naval vessel. This time, Israel will play her cards closer - either inside the territorial limit or have a better setup response team outside the limits when an intercept will happen.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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-snip-
If an issue can't be settled by compromise, its going to be imposed from without.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To start out, the imposed South African solution turned out quite well.

Yesterday I thought your quick inclusion of South Africa as an anology was odd.

I don't see any real similaries between Israel/Palestinians and Whites/Blacks in S.A.

With Israel/Palestinians IMO we basically have two countries perpetually at war with long standing border disputes.

With South Africa we had human and civil rights issues (segregation etc). There were no border or state security issues that I recall.

But your reference to S.A. has me wondering, do you view the Palestinian/Israeli matter as a civil rights similar to S.A.?

Fern
 

EagleKeeper

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Yesterday I thought your quick inclusion of South Africa as an anology was odd.

I don't see any real similaries between Israel/Palestinians and Whites/Blacks in S.A.

With Israel/Palestinians IMO we basically have two countries perpetually at war with long standing border disputes.

With South Africa we had human and civil rights issues (segregation etc). There were no border or state security issues that I recall.

But your reference to S.A. has me wondering, do you view the Palestinian/Israeli matter as a civil rights similar to S.A.?

Fern
He views it as what ever will make the Palestinians look good and Israel look bad.

Inconsistencies between views does not matter and should be ignored if it does not meet his viewpoint.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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The CC delusion is that by themselves, Palestinians can't impose anything on Israel. But as Israel acts like total rat finks its the larger world that will impose a Palestinian State on Israel. Just like the Northern States had to do to the CSA during our civil war.

CC pardon my observation, you act like your pro pro Israeli thinking is a majority in world opinion, but in the larger UN and world populations, your views are not only in a tiny minority, that minority is fast shrinking. Even the US POTUS may not be able to prevent a declared Palestinian State from happening, and even if Obama can delay it, the US may not be afford the cost of world negative reaction.
 

EagleKeeper

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No one is concerned about a declared Palestinian state.

The concern is will that state start another Mid East war?

The government that could be in charge of the proposed state is still itching for a fight with Israel.

The borders of the state will themselves cause a conflict that should have been settled previously but was not. Pointing fingers at why will not solve the matter.

Should the Palestinian state try to impose its ideas upon Israel, there will be a backlash.
And without an implicit Israeli responsibility for the welfare of the Palestinians; Israel can easily (and IMHO should) put the economic screws with such force that the Palestinians are unable to gear up to be able to be self sufficient. Economic warfare can be done as well as military.

Use economics to settle the land disputes
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Hey Lemon Law,

Got a question for you, an honest question.

I want to go back to your recommendation that a solution be imposed upon the two parties (Israel/Palestine).

Have the Palestinians ever officially indicated what specifically they would approve of as a settlement?

I ask because I'm not aware of one if they did. But I don't follow this closely etc. Also, I'm sort of the opinion that no Palistinian leader dare make peace with, and recognize Israel, if only because they don't want to end up like Anwar Sadat.

Well, have they indicated the settlement they'll accept?

Fern
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Fern asks, "Yesterday I thought your quick inclusion of South Africa as an anology was odd.

I don't see any real similaries between Israel/Palestinians and Whites/Blacks in S.A."

Yes in fact I do Fern, its exactly the same issues with basic human rights. But since the Apartheid South African government occupied the entire country, there was no option other than the forced assimilation of blacks with full voting rights. But in Israel there are two options, either Israel can vacate the disputed territories and return to 1967 borders to make room for a viable Palestinian State. But if Israel refuses, there is always that other South African type option, in the forced assimilation of Palestinians with full voting rights.

Many wiser Israelis have been warning of the latter option for decades. Because if there is too much Israel settlement in disputed territory Israel refuses to vacate, there will no longer be enough territory to allow a viable Palestinian State, leaving the latter option as the only remaining viable option.

Making it an Israel choice, does it want to go back to its 1967 borders and still retain the majority Jewish character of that, or will the Jews end up being a bare majority voting block in a larger land entity? With the reality that since Arab and Palestinian birth rates are larger, within a decade or two, the Jewish voting block will be smaller than than the combined Arab and Palestinian voting blocks.
 

EagleKeeper

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The Arab/Fatah settlement offer was the '67 borders and a right to return with a promise of peace

The Palestinians under Hamas want Israel eliminated. No peace

Simple enough
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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The Palestinians ran out of the original Israel '48 borders in anticipation of being able to have it all.

Maybe if Israel gets enough of the West Bank, the existing Palestinians that do not want to live in peace with Israel will vacate to Gaza or some other Arab/Muslim nation that will welcome them.

after all, it happened before.

But no Arab nation wanted the troublemakers last time. They fought in Jordan and Lebanon. Maybe with the new age; they will this time.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Ok Fern I will bite, you asked an honest question in asking, "Got a question for you, an honest question.

I want to go back to your recommendation that a solution be imposed upon the two parties (Israel/Palestine).

Have the Palestinians ever officially indicated what specifically they would approve of as a settlement?

I ask because I'm not aware of one if they did. But I don't follow this closely etc. Also, I'm sort of the opinion that no Palistinian leader dare make peace with, and recognize Israel, if only because they don't want to end up like Anwar Sadat.

Well, have they indicated the settlement they'll accept?"

Fern, to some extent Abbas indicated how far they would go in accepting all the pro-Israeli concessions in the basic Olmert brokered plan. When Wikileaks published the basic details many Palestinians were enraged and appalled at Abbas, but its still a point that is moot because Netanyuhu now wants even more. And in his spech to the US congress shows he now wants the moon and stars too.

The real question being asked by many, is will Israel ever get anything as good as the basic Olmert brokered plan in future?

Its a question I'll leave to the future.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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-snip-
Fern, to some extent Abbas indicated how far they would go in accepting all the pro-Israeli concessions in the basic Olmert brokered plan. When Wikileaks published the basic details many Palestinians were enraged and appalled at Abbas...

Thanks.

OK, it appears that the Palestinians haven't agreed, even among themselves, to what they would accept.

Now why this bothers in regards to your suggestion that an agreement be imposed upon them is that I'm afraid we'd end up with two unhappy parties - the Israeli's and the Palestinians.

If the Palestinians remain unhappy after an imposed settlement I see the violence just continuing, and most likely escalating. If you're unhappy with the settlement the way that to get that revisited is to aggitate like all heck until the powers that be agree to revisit it.

Do you disagree that the Palestinians would continue with violence if an agreement was forced upon them that they did not approve of?

Fern
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Thanks.

OK, it appears that the Palestinians haven't agreed, even among themselves, to what they would accept.

Now why this bothers in regards to your suggestion that an agreement be imposed upon them is that I'm afraid we'd end up with two unhappy parties - the Israeli's and the Palestinians.

If the Palestinians remain unhappy after an imposed settlement I see the violence just continuing, and most likely escalating. If you're unhappy with the settlement the way that to get that revisited is to aggitate like all heck until the powers that be agree to revisit it.

Do you disagree that the Palestinians would continue with violence if an agreement was forced upon them that they did not approve of?
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No, I tend to disagree, we had somewhat the same situation in South Africa, but once the decision was agreed to from without, it was somewhat a like it or its impossible to lump it.

But let me ask you Fern, why do you only ask the question about Palestinian violence? In my mind any such externally imposed solution is more likely to provoke more violence from crazed Israeli settlers and the like from the Israeli side.

But the only time the world was close to any mutually agreed settlement was lost when Arifat refused to surrender the Palestinian right to return.

But the new question remaining in my mind is the questionably conventional wisdom that a mutually agreed Palestinian State is possible. And therefore the only way to defuse the the mid-east peace issues is for binding third party arbitration, leaving both sides with a like it or lump it situation, much like South Africa.

Now made more likely with the latest set of Netanyuhu demands, that hold no seeds for anything remotely resembling a fair settlement within it.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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-snip-
No, I tend to disagree, we had somewhat the same situation in South Africa, but once the decision was agreed to from without, it was somewhat a like it or its impossible to lump it.

But let me ask you Fern, why do you only ask the question about Palestinian violence? In my mind any such externally imposed solution is more likely to provoke more violence from crazed Israeli settlers and the like from the Israeli side.

But the only time the world was close to ant mutually agreed settlement was lost when Arifat refused to surrender the Palestinian right to return.

But the new question remaining in my mind is the questionably conventional wisdom that a mutually agreed Palestinian State is possible. And therefore the only way to defuse the the mid-east peace issues is for binding third party arbitration, leaving both sides with a like it or lump it situation, must like South Africa.

Now made more likely with the latest set of Netanyuhu demands, that hold no seeds for anything remotely resembling fair settlement within it.

I think for many people the real point behind a settlement is stopping the violence. The mortar/rocket attacks, the suicide bombers, kids throwing rocks and getting shot at, people sneaking into settlements and murdering people etc.

I don't think imposing anything on the Palestinians they aren't 110&#37; happy with is going to stop the violence. Consequently I have to ask why even bother?

But if your primary concern is about their human rights I suppose you might find it worthwhile even if the violence continues.

Fern
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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OK, it appears that the Palestinians haven't agreed, even among themselves, to what they would accept.
Not so, the actual issue is as [URL="http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/32449/palestinians_israelis_at_odds_over_saudi_plan]polling[/URL] shows:

Adults in the Palestinian Territories and Israel hold differing views on the peace agreement proposed by Saudi Arabia, according to a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research and the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. 67 per cent of respondents in the West Bank and Gaza Strip support the plan, while 57 per cent of Israelis reject it.

[I've no clue why the rest breaks the post, so I just continued it below]
 
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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Palestinians largely do accept a two state solution on the basis of international law, as that is what the Saudi peace plan is, as is the UNGA resolution "Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine" which the vast majority of the world has been voting in favor of every year for decades. However, Israelis refuse to accept anything of the sort, and our government backs them on that by vetoing any steps at imposing a two state solution on the basis of international law through the UNSC.

Do you disagree that the Palestinians would continue with violence if an agreement was forced upon them that they did not approve of?
If anything resembling a just solution to the conflict were imposed, surely continuing Israeli violence would be a far bigger issue? After all, Israelis constantly kill far more Palestinian non-combatants than the other way around, and the last Israeli Prime Minster who came anywhere close to a just agreement was branded a traitor by Israel's current Prime minster and murdered by an Israeli extremist.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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I understand an agreement could be achieved that would be supported by a majority of the Palestinians. But in termsn of violence (launching rockets etc) it's not the majority that bothers me. I don't think the majority participate in attacks etc. It's that violent minority. If they're not I firmly believe we'll just have the same stuff continue, in part because I have zero faith any Palestinian government will be able to excert sufficient control to stop violence by radicals.

I think continuing Israeli violence will only be a concern with continuing Palestinian violence. As to them killing more Palestinians, that's to be expected. They're better armed and more proficient at it. And when it comes to one-on-one Isreali violence, that strikes me as a concern for Isreali's only.

Fern
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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dont you just love the people who throw around the words International law as if they actually mean something??
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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I understand an agreement could be achieved that would be supported by a majority of the Palestinians.
No, you don't understand. Such an agreement can't be achieved, despite the fact that the vast majority of the world (Palestinians and otherwise) support it, at least not as long as US veto power over the UNSC allows Israel to refuse anything of the sort.

But in termsn of violence (launching rockets etc) it's not the majority that bothers me. I don't think the majority participate in attacks etc. It's that violent minority.
It's the majority that can stop that violent minority, but they have little intensive to so as long as the majority of Israelis prefer to continue robbing Palestinians of what little is left of their homeland through overwhelming military force rather than agreeing to anything resembling a just resolution to the conflict.

I think continuing Israeli violence will only be a concern with continuing Palestinian violence. As to them killing more Palestinians, that's to be expected. They're better armed and more proficient at it.
Surely you don't imagine that Israelis became better armed and more proficient at at killing non-combatants by being less inclined towards violence?

dont you just love the people who throw around the words International law as if they actually mean something??
Rather, I despise the way international anarchists try to throw out international law as if it means nothing.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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dont you just love the people who throw around the words International law as if they actually mean something??
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Maybe exactly the point, as JediY advocates the exact positions of Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo of Japan that there is no such thing called fairness or international law.

The JediY problem is in assuming that the majority of the world is still pro-Israeli.

Bozo Netanyuhu just done screwed the pooch, as it loses almost all world support in that Netanyuhu new position.

Yes Virginia and JediY there is a innate world concept of international law Israel falls on the wrong side of.

But still point granted, JediY, its still so far so good for Israel, but the fats now in the fire, can you say the same thing come 9/2011?

That is now the question?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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The bigger question is what happens in Oct 2011.

If there is a Palestinian state, what shape will it be in?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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The bigger question is what happens in Oct 2011.

If there is a Palestinian state, what shape will it be in?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two answers for you CC.

1. The Pals will be finally in far better shape.

2. The Israelis will be in far worse shape as their totally piggishness is no longer viable.

But either way, the world will finally be on a path to a peaceful mid-east solution. If Israel wants to defy world will, that is a risk for only Israel.

The CC delusion he is in denial about is that Israel is already on the wrong side of the vast bulk of the rest of world opinion. And now in the latest Bozo Netanyuhu position, Israel can't have possibly done a better job of alienating 90% of the world.
 

dali71

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2003
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The bigger question is what happens in Oct 2011.

If there is a Palestinian state, what shape will it be in?

1. Palestinian statehood is finally achieved.

2. Palestinians continue to fire rockets into Israel from Gaza.

3. Free from previous constraints, Israel formally declares war on Palestine and wipes them off the map.


Which is why Palestinians will never seriously attempt to achieve statehood in a reasonable manner.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Two answers for you CC.

1. The Pals will be finally in far better shape.

2. The Israelis will be in far worse shape as their totally piggishness is no longer viable.

But either way, the world will finally be on a path to a peaceful mid-east solution. If Israel wants to defy world will, that is a risk for only Israel.

The CC delusion he is in denial about is that Israel is already on the wrong side of the vast bulk of the rest of world opinion. And now in the latest Bozo Netanyuhu position, Israel can't have possibly done a better job of alienating 90% of the world.

Given the rule of law as it applies to conquered territory; Israel can roll over the new Palestinian state and have nothing to fear from the UN. After all the Arabs got away with it multiple times without any repercussions from the UN and world.

Or do the Arabs get unlimited Get out of Trouble Free passes?

All the truly need is a weapon to be fired at Israel from the new state and Israel has full justification to go in.

You think that the Palestinians will have the self discipline to keep the peace even if there are Jews in spitting distance?

YES - I am really looking forward to a state of Palestine and their attitude adjustment:thumbsup:
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Given the rule of law as it applies to conquered territory
From what I've seen, international law outright rejects the notion of territorial conquest, notably in the Hague Regulations IV:

Article 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Article 55. The occupying State shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct.
So, if there is actually some "law as it applies to conquered territory" which suggests the contrary, please quote it here.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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http://cifwatch.com/2011/01/08/misconceptions-about-israel-the-territories-and-international-law/

Misconceptions about Israel, the territories, and international law
January 8, 2011 in Uncategorized | Tags: International Law, Matthew Ackerman, The David Project, West Bank | by Guest/Cross Post

This is cross posted by Matthew Ackerman, a Middle East Analyst at The David Project, and represents an excellent primer on the characterization of Israeli control over disputed territories in Judea and Samaria as violations international law.

&#65279;(See original post at David Project site, here.)&#65279;


So some might grant that it is unclear whether or not Israeli control of the territories is &#8220;illegal.&#8221; That same person would probably still hold, though, that clearly the settlements are illegal. And this argument bases itself on the Geneva Accords, kind of like citing the Constitution, so it should be granted that it is a stronger argument.

But again if we look at the actual language we see that the case is not certain. Just as is the case with Israel&#8217;s control of the territory of the West Bank, so too if we look at the documents cited to prove that Jewish settlement in the territories is illegal, it is clear that this is far from a definitive conclusion.

The clause most cited to say that Israeli settlements are illegal is an article in the 4th Geneva Convention, signed just after World War II, that says: &#8220;The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into territories it occupies.&#8221;

On its face, it seems clear how this can be read to prohibit Israeli settlement of its civilians in the territories.

On the one hand, though, it doesn&#8217;t however say anything about military installations. That means that even if it says that civilian settlement in the territories is illegal, this clause does not say that it&#8217;s illegal for the IDF to set up military buildings, housing all the necessary people there to keep those installations running.

More importantly, a fair reading of the context in which this particular provision was crafted seems to make clear to me that it refers only to involuntary transfers. In other words, to a government moving people into the conquered territory against their will. It was related to specific actions taken by the Nazis &#8211; their forcible transfer of ethnic Germans in lands they conquered elsewhere, and their forcible transfer of Jews in Germany to camps &#8211; that bear no resemblance to the Israeli settlement enterprise.

So, as was the case with Resolution 242, a deeper consideration of both the language in question and the context in which it was crafted and implemented transform a surface conclusion into at least a debatable manner. Which of course means that, at a minimum, the question of whether or not Israeli control of or settlement in the territories is &#8220;illegal&#8221; is unsettled. Which means that fair-minded observers should reject the casual depiction of these realities as illegal.

The other very large problem about this notion is that it in the first place assumes that Jews &#8211; and only Jews, not say Israeli citizens, which of course includes many non-Jews &#8211; have no right to live on the far side of the 1949 lines. This is a very large problem because these include areas, like the entire old cities of Jerusalem and Hebron, that were populated by Jews for thousands of years before those Jews were killed or forcibly removed and the areas they lived in, including their holy sites, destroyed and vandalized, in the first case in 1948, in the second in 1929. To say that the Jewish state must now acquiesce to the permanent removal of Jews from those areas (irrespective of the question of whether or not Israel need exercise sovereign control) doesn&#8217;t seem to me to be a strong grounding for a just international legal system, to say the least.

And that gets us to maybe the biggest problem we face with the casual description of international law that many people use, as well as the incessant focus of international bodies and human rights organizations on Israel to the near exclusion of all else: It undermines the basic principle of international law.

A system applied in this way &#8211; capriciously, without intellectually honest references to foundational texts, as a tool to batter the Jewish state for reasons that have very little do with anyone&#8217;s notions of international law, without recognizing the currently shaky foundations upon which the international legal system rests &#8211; does more than anything else to undermine the confidence on the part of nations and individuals in that an objective, serious international legal system is possible and desirable. As I&#8217;ve already mentioned, and I think should be beyond dispute, such a system rests firmly only on the consent of the vast majority of the people who live under its jurisdiction. And why would anyone want to willingly grant authority over some of the most important aspects of their lives to bodies that twist the law to suit moral fashions?

So, there are very large questions regarding what international does or does not say about Israel&#8217;s control of the territories, and there is no suitable forum at the moment for deciding what it says. Pretending otherwise is a serious blow to the creation of a just international order, in which all states and all peoples can live in the same warm embrace of the rule of law that we enjoy in America.

What generally happens in discussions of international law and Israel is that everyone makes the wrong assumption &#8211; that there is an international legal system like the system we have in democratic countries &#8211; and then debates what the implications of the laws that system has created are. For example, there was and is a very strenuous debate over the 2nd Amendment. There was a very important case on this matter that was decided by the Supreme Court over the summer. And immediately following the decision, the debate began. Does the decision invalidate this law or that law, or not? What are the new limits people must abide by? How can states that have laws that now contravene this decision change them to make them suit it? And so on. And the same thing happens just about every time the Supreme Court makes a decision, just most of the time people like me don&#8217;t know about it or why it matters.

And those Supreme Court decisions matter because whether or not we agree with them, we all agree that they do in fact constitute practically the last word on what the law is. Ultimately of course those decisions are backed up by the force of the police and even the military. Only 50 years ago we saw dramatically in this country that this is so, when President Eisenhower used the Armed Forces to enforce a Supreme Court decision in Little Rock, Arkansas. This is an important issue, and I want to return to it later.

But what makes the system of law work so well in the United States is that force is nearly always unnecessary, because we all agree that the Supreme Court has the authority, basically and near ultimately, to determine what is legal and what is not. Now we debate very strongly whether or not the decisions they make are correct, and these debates get very hot and will likely only get hotter. But they are so hot precisely because we all agree that even when we think the Court has gotten something completely wrong, they have the authority to be wrong, and we all have to go along with it until or unless we can change the Constitution or get the Court to rule on the matter again and change their mind.

This to me was the big lesson of Bush v. Gore. [The Supreme Court case which ended the 2000 Presidential election.] Forget about the intricacies of the argument. Forget about whether the Court at the time got it right or wrong. What was important, what really mattered, was that the entire country went along with the decision, whatever they felt about its merits, because they recognized the power of the Supreme Court to say what is legal and what isn&#8217;t, even for such a weighty matter as who the president will be.

And even beyond that there is a recourse. Power rests not with the credentialed determiners of law who sit on the Supreme Court. Not ultimately. That power rests with the people, &#8220;We the people,&#8221; who wrote the Constitution that the Supreme Court bases its decisions on. And if the people don&#8217;t like what the Supreme Court has to say, well, they can get elect leaders who will put people there who will say what they want it to say, and they can change the Constitution to make clear that it says what they want it to say.

That natural foundation for law &#8211; on the people as sovereign, as the ultimate locus of power &#8211; is what makes the American legal system so strong and so wonderful.

We can&#8217;t say any of the same things about international law because it lacks some of the basic attributes of a national legal system, and this lack is very important when thinking about what exactly international law has to say about all kinds of matters, the situation in the territories included.

It lacks:

&#8226;A system for determining what is legal and what is not. There is no system that has been put in place that is designed to and has the authority to play the same role that the Supreme Court plays in the US.
&#8226;An effective enforcement arm. There are of course UN peacekeepers, but, and I think this is in many if not most cases a sad thing, they are known for their ineffectiveness as opposed to their effectiveness. This is something that Israelis have come to understand well, whether in the case of the UN monitoring force that was put in Sinai to serve as a buffer between Egypt and Israel after the 1956 war or UNIFIL in Lebanon which has watched almost entirely mutely as Hezbollah has rearmed since 2006 far beyond what they had before the war the group fought with Israel that year. UNIFIL was in fact placed there specifically to disarm Hezbollah, so the failure has been even more stark. It&#8217;s also been true in other cases as well, such as the capitulation of the UN forces in Rwanda in the face of the genocidaires in 1994.
&#8226;Perhaps most importantly, the consent of the governed. As I said earlier, maybe the most important thing about the system of law in the US and other established democracies is that it is respected by nearly the entire citizenry. Needless to say we have nowhere near the same case as regards many facets of international law, where governments have not signed on to the jurisdiction of the international criminal court. Even when governments have signed on to specific agreements, it is a stretch to say that the governments see them as truly binding beyond what they perceive to be their own interests. And certainly far too much to say that individuals agree with the authority of international bodies. In the US, opposition even to membership in the United Nations remains a minority but strong position in certain sectors. John McCain even floated the idea of quitting the UN to establish a competing boding of democracies as recently as the 2008 election.
All this means that international law is not a system of law like we are used to in the US. Which means it makes no sense &#8211; it is to me an illicit intellectual move &#8211; to portray international law as settled, &#8220;facts,&#8221; when it is not.

There are agreements (chief in importance in my mind being the Geneva Accords, the NPT, and the charter of the UN) but the interpretation of those agreements is not settled, because there is no one with the authority to say, as in the case of the Supreme Court and the 2nd Amendment: This is what the text means. Now go deal with it.

So at best we have a system of competing interpretations. And there is no way to say whose interpretation beats another interpretation. The best you can do is get a UN Security Council resolution, which, since UN General Assembly resolutions have been thoroughly discredited (this was not always the case. The General Assembly resolution on Palestine was thought in its day to be a very big deal, and for some years after that the press in the US treated the decisions the GA made as weighty, kind of like how they cover the G7 today) seems to me to have achieved a kind of gold standard quality in international law. And even that of course then becomes the topic of competing interpretations, again with no one to decide which is right or wrong, because no one agrees who gets to say what &#8220;the law&#8221; is. And even if you could do that, there is no way to enforce the law if it&#8217;s not followed. And even if you could do that, the people the law is directed at, in not accepting the law as binding, would make impossible the creation of a binding rule of law that would benefit all people.

So, as regards international law and the status of the West Bank and other territories controlled by Israel but not annexed to the country, the chief important document seems to be UNSC resolution 242. And you will find people who will say that this is unequivocal proof that Israel&#8217;s control of the territories is illegal. And you&#8217;ll find others who say it says no such thing.

If you actually read the document (which is quite short), you will see that it calls both for &#8220;withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict&#8221; and &#8220;termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.&#8221;

On the one hand it is easy to see how this language is read to mean that Israel must immediately quit all territories beyond the 1967 lines. But a crucial word is missing, and that is the word &#8220;the.&#8221; It is no accident that the word is missing &#8211; its absence was the result of months of negotiations, and found its way into the text through a recognition by the people who wrote it that Israel&#8217;s exact boundaries from 1949-1967 were untenable over the long-term and adjustments would have to be made.

Taken in tandem with the second clause I cited, which calls for states to be free &#8220;from threats or acts of force,&#8221; it is not hard to argue that Israel, in returning 90&#37; of the territory it won in 1967 when it gave the Sinai back to Egypt is fully in accord with the resolution while neighboring Arab states like Syrian and Lebanon are not, due to their housing of terrorist groups directed against Israel on their soil.

This is in fact the exact argument that Eugene Rostow, the undersecretary of state for the United States in 1967, who was intimately involved in writing the resolution, made in 1991. Rostow felt the case was so good that the text was not at all &#8220;ambiguous&#8221; or open to interpretation.

And personally, I agree with him. I don&#8217;t think the resolution is ambiguous. I don&#8217;t think it makes Israel&#8217;s presence in the territories &#8220;illegal,&#8221; and it does appear that Israel has done more to fill the terms directed at it than Arab states have done to fill the terms directed at them. The refusal by most Arab states to grant even the point that Israel has a right to not be physically attacked puts them much more in breach of the language of this resolution than Israel is.

But of course it doesn&#8217;t really matter if I say it&#8217;s ambiguous or not. And it also didn&#8217;t matter that Rostow said it, and he was certainly much more important than I am. And it also doesn&#8217;t matter if my fellow panelists disagree and say no it says clearly that the resolution says that Israel&#8217;s continued control of the West Bank and Golan are illegal. Because there is no forum for us to decide these matters. There&#8217;s no body that can say, as a final matter, this is how it is, and then we&#8217;ll know that everyone will abide by that decision. And that of course is my point.

And that gets us to maybe the biggest problem we face with the casual description of international law that many people use, as well as the incessant focus of international bodies and human rights organizations on Israel to the near exclusion of all else: It undermines the basic principal of international law.

A system applied in this way &#8211; capriciously, without intellectually honest references to foundational texts, as a tool to batter the Jewish state for reasons that have very little do with anyone&#8217;s notions of international law, without recognizing the currently shaky foundations upon which the international legal system rests &#8211; does more than anything else to undermine the confidence on the part of nations and individuals in that an objective, serious international legal system is possible and desirable. As I&#8217;ve already mentioned, and I think should be beyond dispute, such a system rests firmly only on the consent of the vast majority of the people who live under its jurisdiction. And why would anyone want to willingly grant authority over some of the most important aspects of their lives to bodies that twist the law to suit moral fashions?

So, there are very large questions regarding what international does or does not say about Israel&#8217;s control of the territories, and there is no suitable forum at the moment for deciding what it says. Pretending otherwise is a serious blow to the creation of a just international order, in which all states and all peoples can live in the same warm embrace of the rule of law that we enjoy in America.
 
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