Palestinian UN bid enters unknown territory

[Lemon law]

Again deflection - what realistic settlement have the Arabs offered?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you will not accept my rebuttals maybe you would prefer the rebuttals from Haaretz editorial opinion. At least it shows there is a substantial rational Jewish minority in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...eality-that-obama-doesn-t-understand-1.363442

 

[EagleKeeper]

From the Arab initiative (Wiki)

The initiative attempts to end the Arab-Israeli conflict, which means normalizing relations between the entire Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) and a "just settlement" of the Palestinian refugee crisis based on UN Resolution 194 (which calls for a diplomatic resolution to the conflict and resolves that any refugees "wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors" should be able to do so or if they otherwise wish to be provided with compensation). The Initiative was initially overshadowed by the Passover Massacre, a major terrorist attack that took place on March 27, 2002 (the day before the Initiative was published) and that had been claimed by the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing

The official administration of Hamas never recognized the Initiative,

Hamas' foreign minister Mahmoud al-Zahar said in June 2006 that the organization rejects the initiative.[8] Prime Minister Ismail Haneya said on October 2006 that the "problem with the Arab peace initiative is that it includes recognition of the state of Israel, the thing that the Palestinian government rejects" and dismissed it

So you have an statement; yet the primary beneficiary is still at war while it was drafted. Great timing to instill confidence. Seems similar to all the other previous Arab statements - promise and then attack again.

The Arabs did not involve Israel - they stated that the Right to Return had to be honored, Israel return to their borders before the Arabs attacked (rewarding the Arabs again - expected) It was a demand on Israel; acknowledging no responsibility on the Arabs and nothing on the Palestinians.

In otherwords, land for peace - we have seen how that works out.

In response, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres welcomed it and said: "... the details of every peace plan must be discussed directly between Israel and the Palestinians, and to make this possible, the Palestinian Authority must put an end to terror, the horrifying expression of which we witnessed just last night in Netanya," [3] referring to Netanya suicide attack perpetrated on previous evening which the Beirut Summit has failed to address. Many in the Israel camp argue that this proposal carries a lot less weight coming after the Palestinian Authority rejected Ehud Barak's offer at Camp David.

The Arabs demanded; the Palestinians wanted everything and stop nothing. The Arabs conveniently ignored what the Hamas group was doing.

Substantial? Where do you get that from?

 

[Fern]

-snip-
If an issue can't be settled by compromise, its going to be imposed from without.

Don't think so.

And hope not. That rarely turns out well and under these circumstances I predict we, as a country, will be drawn deeper into the mess.

Fern

 

[Freshgeardude]

As the clock ticks down, Israel has no realistic negotiated settlement to offer.

are you kidding??

http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=101041

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. In addition, he agreed to dismantle 63 isolated settlements. In exchange for the 5 percent annexation of the West Bank, Israel would increase the size of the Gaza territory by roughly a third.
Barak also made previously unthinkable concessions on Jerusalem, agreeing that Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem would become the capital of the new state. The Palestinians would maintain control over their holy places and have "religious sovereignty" over the Temple Mount.
According to U.S. peace negotiator Dennis Ross, Israel offered to create a Palestinian state that was contiguous, and not a series of cantons. Even in the case of the Gaza Strip, which must be physically separate from the West Bank unless Israel were to be cut into non-contiguous pieces, a solution was devised whereby an overland highway would connect the two parts of the Palestinian state without any Israeli checkpoints or interference.
The proposal also addressed the refugee issue, guaranteeing them the right of return to the Palestinian state and reparations from a $30 billion international fund that would be collected to compensate them.
Israel also agreed to give the Palestinians access to water desalinated in its territory.
Arafat was asked to agree to Israeli sovereignty over the parts of the Western Wall religiously significant to Jews (i.e., not the entire Temple Mount), and three early warning stations in the Jordan valley, which Israel would withdraw from after six years. Most important, however, Arafat was expected to agree that the conflict was over at the end of the negotiations. This was the true deal breaker. Arafat was not willing to end the conflict. "For him to end the conflict is to end himself," said Ross.30c
The prevailing view of the Camp David/White House negotiations - that Israel offered generous concessions, and that Yasser Arafat rejected them to pursue the intifada that began in September 2000 - prevailed for more than a year. To counter the perception that Arafat was the obstacle to peace, the Palestinians and their supporters then began to suggest a variety of excuses for why Arafat failed to say "yes" to a proposal that would have established a Palestinian state. The truth is that if the Palestinians were dissatisfied with any part of the Israeli proposal, all they had to do was offer a counterproposal. They never did.

what is wrong with this proposal? huh? is it not good enough?

Obviously not, because the palestinians want all of israel back.

 

[Lemon law]

Don't think so.

And hope not. That rarely turns out well and under these circumstances I predict we, as a country, will be drawn deeper into the mess.

Fern

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To start out, the imposed South African solution turned out quite well. So where Fern did you get that contention from? At the same time we can say Bosnian genocide of Muslims was stopped and turned out well.

As for the USA, any USA granted blanks checks to Netanyuhu speech in the US congress will put the US all in, The USA and Israelis against the whole world. The time for the USA to straddle any fences are over, the USA now must choose between from losing all Arab and allies support, or we can side with only Israel. That is now the stark choice, the US can have only one at the total expense of losing the other.

 

[Fern]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To start out, the imposed South African solution turned out quite well. So where Fern did you get that contention from? -snip-

Not sure that turned out all that well.

I seem to remember quite a few people with burning tires around their necks etc.

IIRC, the place still has the highest murder rate in the world.

Think to the concessions forced upon Germany at the conclusion of WWI. Pretty sure most believe that lead directly to WWII.

And for reasons I will not explain further, I think this situation is a particularly poor place to impose other countries' will. I think that is what got us here in the 1st place.

Fern

 

[Lemon law]

Sorry Fern, I think you confuse South Africa with Haiti. And think a total rascal like Netanyuhu has any moral cred compared to people like Nelson Mandela or Desmond Tutu.

 

[EagleKeeper]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To start out, the imposed South African solution turned out quite well. So where Fern did you get that contention from? At the same time we can say Bosnian genocide of Muslims was stopped and turned out well.

As for the USA, any USA granted blanks checks to Netanyuhu speech in the US congress will put the US all in, The USA and Israelis against the whole world. The time for the USA to straddle any fences are over, the USA now must choose between from losing all Arab and allies support, or we can side with only Israel. That is now the stark choice, the US can have only one at the total expense of losing the other.

What Arab support.

They play us like a fiddle and we have been dancing to their tune.

The allies will still provide support; they are to economically and military tied to us.

 

[theeedude]

This is nothing new, I think everyone pretty much expects the US to veto any UN action that Israel doesn't sign off on.

 

[EagleKeeper]

This is nothing new, I think everyone pretty much expects the US to veto any UN action that Israel doesn't sign off on.

The EU will also not tolerate Hamas being part of the Palestinian government in their present form.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Sorry Fern, I think you confuse South Africa with Haiti. And think a total rascal like Netanyuhu has any moral cred compared to people like Nelson Mandela or Desmond Tutu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

At number one:

Southern Africa 37.3

37.3 intentional murders/ 100,000


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carjacking#South_Africa

Carjacking is a significant problem in South Africa, where it is called hijacking; there are some roadsigns warning people that certain areas are hotspots. There were 16,000 carjackings in one year (18 times the American rate per capita), and 60 murders a year resulting from these.[citation needed]
In the late 1990s and early 2000s, several new, unconventional anti-carjacking systems designed to harm the attacker were developed and marketed in South Africa, where carjacking had become such a serious problem that they faced little resistance from local police and judiciary bodies.[3] Among these was the now defunct Blaster, a small flame thrower that could be mounted to the underside of a vehicle.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa#Social_problems

Crime

Main article: Crime in South Africa
According to a survey for the period 1998–2000 compiled by the United Nations, South Africa was ranked second for murder and first for assaults and rapes per capita.[133] Official statistics show that 52 murders are committed each day in South Africa.[134]
Sexual violence

Main article: Sexual violence in South Africa
The reported number of rapes per year is 55,000,[135] and it is estimated that 500,000 women are raped in South Africa every year.[136] Total crime per capita is 10th out of the 60 countries in the data set.
Rape is a common problem in South Africa, in a 2009 survey one in four South African men admitted to raping someone.[137] One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year.[138] South Africa has some of the highest incidences of child and baby rape in the world.[139] In a related survey conducted among 1,500 schoolchildren in the Soweto township, a quarter of all the boys interviewed said that 'jackrolling', a term for gang rape, was fun.[138]
Middle-class South Africans seek security in gated communities. Many emigrants from South Africa also state that crime was a big motivator for them to leave. Crime against the farming community has continued to be a major problem.[140]

According to a survey for the period 1998–2000 compiled by the UN, South Africa was ranked first for rapes per capita.[1]
Xenophobia

Main article: Xenophobia in South Africa
In May 2008 societal hostility to African migrants exploded in a series of pogroms that left up to 100 people dead and 100,000 displaced.[144]

South Africa is excellent.

when can I go on vacation there?




You cant impose peace. It must be wanted and guaranteed by BOTH sides.

Secondly, Israel is not in chaos, and is a democracy.

It wont take bullshit from the UN.

 

[Lemon law]

The FGD delusion is in, "You cant impose peace. It must be wanted and guaranteed by BOTH sides."

The FGD contention may be the wanted outcome, but when Israel is clearly the rat fink rascal not only refusing to compromise, but escalating their demand at the same time, the only other alternative becomes imposing a fair solution from without. The Israeli delusion is that in a 7 billion people world, anyone will care about what only 6 million delusional Jews demand compared to 7 billion other more rational people who want a fair solution for peace in the mid-east.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

The FGD contention may be the wanted outcome,but when Israel is clearly the rat fink rascal not only refusing to compromise, but escalating their demand at the same time, the only other alternative becomes imposing a fair solution from without. The Israeli delusion is that in a 7 billion people world, anyone will care about what only 6 million delusional Jews demand compared to 7 billion other more rational people who want a fair solution for peace in the mid-east.

Please stop pretending that you somehow can speak for the rest of the world. Your personal bias in this matter doesn't come close to being on par to what the rest of the world wants, unless your entire world is composed of Arab states. So please stow that bilious bullshit once and for all. It has really gone far past the point of being tedious and tiresome.

 

[Zebo]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To start out, the imposed South African solution turned out quite well. So where Fern did you get that contention from? At the same time we can say Bosnian genocide of Muslims was stopped and turned out well.

.

LOLZ South African solution didn't turn out well. There was no Bosnian genocide. http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2008/05/23/into-the-bosnian-quagmire/ and the solution there is a complete failure with US troops still there and utterly divided.

I can pretty much bet 100/100 against what you think because it's always wrong. I'm sticking with my original prediction Israel will have all west of Jordan river.

 

[Freshgeardude]

The FGD delusion is in, "You cant impose peace. It must be wanted and guaranteed by BOTH sides."

The FGD contention may be the wanted outcome, but when Israel is clearly the rat fink rascal not only refusing to compromise, but escalating their demand at the same time, the only other alternative becomes imposing a fair solution from without. The Israeli delusion is that in a 7 billion people world, anyone will care about what only 6 million delusional Jews demand compared to 7 billion other more rational people who want a fair solution for peace in the mid-east.

its funny to see you skip right over the main part of my post. Looks like you got proven wrong and are just trying to play it off.



somehow the Palestinians wanted peace every day since 1948?


Simultaneously launching rockets, supporting other Arab nations on offensive on Israel, suicide bombs, teaching your children to hate Jews and Israelis, denieing the holocaust, naming newly built centers after former terrorist, all while denying your own citizens the right of free speech and the right to protest.

 

[EagleKeeper]

When did the Palestinian leadership ever offer/guarantee peace with Israel?

Their actions speak even louder.

 

[Abwx]

When did the Palestinian leadership ever offer/guarantee peace with Israel?
Their actions speak even louder.

Since their lands, rights and dignity were stolen by the nazionists,
they are not required to offer anything..

It s not a conflict with both side having equal responsabilities,
it s truly gangsters asking their victims to recognize the loots
as legitimate.

Once you understand this, you ll understand why israelis
are not keen to sign anything that would aknowledge that
they are the root of the conflict..

Indeed, israeli s goal was to annex most parts of the ME,
and since their plan didnt success completely, they are now
trapped on boarders that are defensible palestinians wise but
wich are completely indefensible should the neighbors get
only 50% of the israeli weaponry..

Probability is that in a 50 years sight, israel will no longer
exist in its current form , wether there will be wars or not...

 

[Zebo]

If Israel doesn't exist non of us are going to exist. (save those who have a fallout 3 style bunker) Don't you understand they have enough to cause a nuclear winter and what that means? In their mind it would serve the Jew-hating world right as repayment for thousands of years of massacres.

That's what makes LL silly numbers meaningless BTW. Push comes to shove Israel will keep truckin and world will STFU.

 

[Lemon law]

That Zebo statement shows only his religious bias. He could make the same assertion about a nuclear armed Pakistan too. But does not.

But that is just the problem in a Nuclear armed world, having the bomb gives a nation some cred, but any nation using the bomb will be retaliated against in kind by all other nuclear powers.

There is no question that the land of Israel will continue to exists, but governments can change and people can change. And since the pressures directed against Israel are likely to be economic and not military, the bomb is no currency.

 

[Zebo]

That Zebo statement shows only his religious bias. He could make the same assertion about a nuclear armed Pakistan too. But does not.

But that is just the problem in a Nuclear armed world, having the bomb gives a nation some cred, but any nation using the bomb will be retaliated against in kind by all other nuclear powers.

There is no question that the land of Israel will continue to exists, but governments can change and people can change. And since the pressures directed against Israel are likely to be economic and not military, the bomb is no currency.

Are you ever right? I often say an armed society is a polite society wrt nukes. I'm not religious (and most people arnt despite what they claim) which is exactly why it's GTG.

And no Pakistan doesn't have near enough for nuclear winter.

 

[EagleKeeper]

That Zebo statement shows only his religious bias. He could make the same assertion about a nuclear armed Pakistan too. But does not.

But that is just the problem in a Nuclear armed world, having the bomb gives a nation some cred, but any nation using the bomb will be retaliated against in kind by all other nuclear powers.

There is no question that the land of Israel will continue to exists, but governments can change and people can change. And since the pressures directed against Israel are likely to be economic and not military, the bomb is no currency.

What economic pressure?

An embargo - you have been predicting this since the first flotilla incidents.
It never came.

When Israel went into Gaza as Operation Cast Lead. It never came.

When the Turkish Navy was escorting blockade runners. It never came.

When the world recognized a Palestinian state. It never came.


Now if it came - you must have some other definition for embargo and economic pressure that the rest of the world is not using.
Care to share?

Even the Arabs who hate Israel can not even put up an embargo - and you think the rest of the world will?

 

[Lemon law]

CC you talk only about your one sided version of the past, I am talking the likely coming future. Netanyuihu has ruled out any real talks or compromise, and now the talk has already shifted to a Palestinian State declared in the general Assembly where the US has no veto. Early predictions are already saying the Palestinian side will win by a better than 2 to one margin or better.

As for Israel, its already paying the price in isolation, 13 months ago Israel had at least 3 nations it could call allies, now Israel has none. As for Iran, Israeli actions only makes Iran stronger. And as you should know the largest flotilla ever won't come until after June 12.

 

[Nebor]

But that is just the problem in a Nuclear armed world, having the bomb gives a nation some cred, but any nation using the bomb will be retaliated against in kind by all other nuclear powers.

You think the US, UK & France would retaliate "in kind" against Israel if they used a nuclear weapon. You're crazy.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

the talk has already shifted to a Palestinian State declared in the general Assembly where the US has no veto. Early predictions are already saying the Palestinian side will win by a better than 2 to one margin or better.

That should be amusing. Precisely who is going to make the Israeli's obey? Obama isn't. The US isn't and NATO won't. I suppose you could get Iran to do it.

 

[Nebor]

As for Israel, its already paying the price in isolation, 13 months ago Israel had at least 3 nations it could call allies, now Israel has none.

What?

The US has a congressional mandate to ensure that Israel maintains a military edge over the rest of the Middle East. Sounds like an alliance to me.