Pakistan thinking about showing secret copter to China

[Sinsear]

I am a Pakistani living in Pakistan. And yes, I am allowed to vote.

Sorry to hear that. Must suck to live in such a backwards shithole.

 

[routan]

While you may have integrity; the actions of the ISI and the Pakistani government when it comes to attacks on AQ by US forces is not there.

Previously, when advance knowledge of attacks on targets were passed to the Pakistani government/military/ISI, immediately afterwards, those targets vanished. This had happened multiple times; given that there are sympathizers (at a min) within all three institutions, it is reasonable to feel that deliberate leaks/warnings occurred.

That is why, the US could not take a chance on asking Pakistan to cooperate or even institute the raid.

The use of drones to attack AQ/Taliban areas again are because when information has been passed along; it is not acted on. You have villages that have been co-opted by the AQ/Taliban groups; there are innocents there; but no one is using ground forces effectively to rout the militants out. Ground forces show up and the village (targets) is empty; yet photos from hours/days before showed the targets. Questions are asked - Why?

You have many good people within Pakistan that are trying to help, but being hindered by others. That cripples the cooperation between the countries and makes it so it is difficult to trust; not being able to tell/confirm where the rotten apples are.

This is a false perception, that is perpetuated by repeating it often enough, that it becomes a fact.

The fact is thousands, if not tens of thousands of people have been killed in drone attacks. Daily you can find results of people killed in these drone attacks, streching back to years. Alluding that ground forces cannot do the job is incorrect - the United States in unwilling to commit to ground troops simply because it is safer to use drones.

The Pakistan military has also lost thousands in their offensive against the militants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_North-West_Pakistan#Casualties Hence the need to strike peace treaties/pacts, to not continue losing soldiers. I do believe we in Iraq and in Afghanistan have had similar practices, including and not limited to supplying Viagra to elders, throwing (my tax) dollar bills etc.

Recent reports have also surfaced stating an agreement between Musharraf and the United States, that IF there is intelligence that OBL was in Pakistan, the United States will be allowed to unilaterally act with vociferous protests from Pakistan.

Heck, even Wikileaks has released documents stating the agreement on drone attacks, which while an obvious violation of sovereignity, would be allowed to continue, and only met with protests in the Pakistani parliment.

With respect to aid, War is an expensive venture. Given that our need is for Pakistan to act against militants, I would think it is reasonable for Pakistan to request funds. I believe when we fought against Iraq in '91, the bill was footed by Kuwait/Saudia.

Let not your opinions be so jaded that you are only bent on pointing fingers.

 

[chucky2]

It's so funny that when people on this forum run out of counter arguments, they revert to ad-hominem,

Again, this is another example of how brainwashed you are. You actually think you're not brainwashed, so you perceive my comments to be ad-hominem attacks instead of facts literally everyone else on this forum understands: You're that brainwashed.

Look, you actually perceive American Special Forces taking out OBL, who has been living right under your noses for who really knows how long (meaning: some subset of your Leadership knew), as an invasion. Special Forces on a mission such as that don't "invade", they're in (to take care of business) and out (to GTFO of Dodge).

How does one continue a discussion with someone that sees that as an invasion?

Yes: You are that brainwashed.

Chuck

 

[manimal]

Sorry to hear that. Must suck to live in such a backwards shithole.

thats completely unnecessary.....argue the merits of your argument...dont be a douchebag...

 

[routan]

thats completely unnecessary.....argue the merits of your argument...dont be a douchebag...

way too late for that

 

[dabuddha]

thats completely unnecessary.....argue the merits of your argument...dont be a douchebag...

Sinsear is being sincere in his sorrow for TGB's living conditions. No need to call him names.

 

[Jaskalas]

If I were in charge I'd make you a deal. No more drone strikes, in exchange for cleaning up the mess we made and turning everything over to us.

Sadly I doubt either side has the intention of making peace with the other. We call each other 'ally', but stab each other in the back. We truly are enemies, but I do not want that. Our leaders apparently do.

If there is a conflict between the United States and Pakistan, it will be moments like these where both sides could have done the right thing, but both refused to cooperate. The price will be high.

 

[umbrella39]

Never trust a beloved patriot... We should go back in and blow it up. It isn't like they will see it coming.

This. They should have sent a drone in afterwards and destroyed it.

 

[Svnla]

Are the idiots blaming Pakistan for being the "bad ally" drones? You invade our territory without telling us and then cry foul when we give your downed planes to our real ally? Pakistan should give everything to China and then tell the USA that they are not sorry.

China as your REAL ally? Wow, just wow. Did you learn anything from history?

Yes, you should give everything to China and become another Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia (sovereign nations that were invaded and annexed by commie China). I don't remember the US takes any land from Pakistan, Afghan, Iraq, Kuwaitt...do you?

 

[tvarad]

Originally Posted by The Green Bean
Are the idiots blaming Pakistan for being the "bad ally" drones? You invade our territory without telling us and then cry foul when we give your downed planes to our real ally? Pakistan should give everything to China and then tell the USA that they are not sorry.

China as your REAL ally? Wow, just wow. Did you learn anything from history?

Yes, you should give everything to China and become another Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia (sovereign nations that were invaded and annexed by commie China). I don't remember the US takes any land from Pakistan, Afghan, Iraq, Kuwaitt...do you?

Actually this is yet another delusion that the Pakistanis live under. In 1971, when India was kicking the crap out of them, the Pakis waited and waited for the Chinese to attack India's northern flank but they never did. It was only when Nixon sailed the 7th fleet into the Bay of Bengal that India called a ceasefire (it had achieved it's objective of liberating Bangladesh by then). Talk about being wretched ingrates.

Coming back to the Chinese, they will look after their own interests and only delusional Pakis think that their role as professional p*mps for super-powers will get them some kind of special respect. If anything they're seen with contempt all over the world.

 

[JEDIYoda]

This is a false perception, that is perpetuated by repeating it often enough, that it becomes a fact.

The fact is thousands, if not tens of thousands of people have been killed in drone attacks. Daily you can find results of people killed in these drone attacks, streching back to years. Alluding that ground forces cannot do the job is incorrect - the United States in unwilling to commit to ground troops simply because it is safer to use drones.-- nothing wrong with saving american lives!!

The Pakistan military has also lost thousands in their offensive against the militants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_...tan#Casualties Hence the need to strike peace treaties/pacts, to not continue losing soldiers. I do believe we in Iraq and in Afghanistan have had similar practices, including and not limited to supplying Viagra to elders, throwing (my tax) dollar bills etc.

Recent reports have also surfaced stating an agreement between Musharraf and the United States, that IF there is intelligence that OBL was in Pakistan, the United States will be allowed to unilaterally act with vociferous protests from Pakistan.--- links or are you just spouting what you think?? BTW that angle has been vehemently denied...

Heck, even Wikileaks has released documents stating the agreement on drone attacks, which while an obvious violation of sovereignity, would be allowed to continue, and only met with protests in the Pakistani parliment. -- wikileaks...credibility el mundo...

With respect to aid, War is an expensive venture. Given that our need is for Pakistan to act against militants, I would think it is reasonable for Pakistan to request funds. I believe when we fought against Iraq in '91, the bill was footed by Kuwait/Saudia.

Let not your opinions be so jaded that you are only bent on pointing fingers.--- wowza.....I thought his opinions were spot on...hmmm

lol

 

[wuliheron]

China as your REAL ally? Wow, just wow. Did you learn anything from history?

Yes, you should give everything to China and become another Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia (sovereign nations that were invaded and annexed by commie China). I don't remember the US takes any land from Pakistan, Afghan, Iraq, Kuwaitt...do you?

No, we just stole 1/3 of our land from Mexico.

This isn't a game of she-loves-me-she-loves-me-not. Its a business arrangement and unless the US or China is willing to make them a partner in the business its to their best advantage to play the two off each other and get the best deal they can.

 

[routan]

lol

I cannot imagine the depths of stupidity you go to.

Ofcourse nothing wrong with saving American lives... are you trying to argue with me here or just throwing random words to construct a post?

You ask for links, and then argue that angle has been vehemently denied? So you're obviously aware of the "angle", but you suggest I am "spouting what I think"?

Feel free to challenge the credibility of wikileaks. If you have nothing intelligent to contribute, you can raise that as your argument.

I cant believe you have almost 15000 posts, all of them absolute nonsensical drivel.

 

[Lemon law]

To start out with, I think the bulk of the people on this thread have little understanding of Pakistan as a whole.

The bulk of the Pakistani nation population live in a modern State with Western Values.

A small part of the Pakistani population lives in the loosely held and by in large autonomous Tribal regions that differs little from Afghanistan itself.

The point is and remains, the Taliban and Al-Quida type ideals hold little sway and no appeal to the modern developed parts of Pakistan. And directly bordering the Tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan itself are the various Stans to the North. And after Tora Bora in 2002, the Taliban and Al-Quida finds infinite shelter with primitive tribesmen
with similar views almost impossible to police.

But in the past few years the Pakistani army has tried and failed to police its tribal areas. Making the Pakistani army almost as popular as Nato drones.

Then to add injury to insult, as evidenced by the Mumbia attack, the Taliban has learned a new trick. As soon as the Pakistani army attacks them in the tribal regions,
they stir up trouble in India with a small terrorist attack, forcing all the Pakistani army back to defend its borders with India.

As for Ossama bin Laden buying a house in near the Pakistani West Point, as of yet, there is not a single iota of evidence that anyone inside of the Pakistani Government knew anything about it. But still some people inside Pakistan helped OBL buy the safehouse.

BFD, people inside the USA helped shelter the original 911 hijackers for over a period of two years. Does that mean the people of the USA are guilty of sheltering terrorist?

As for me, I will wait and see, but any who think killing OBL is any sign of victory in the war on terror are likely to becomes sadly mistaken.

 

[dabuddha]

To start out with, I think the bulk of the people on this thread have little understanding of Pakistan as a whole.

The bulk of the Pakistani nation population live in a modern State with Western Values.

A small part of the Pakistani population lives in the loosely held and by in large autonomous Tribal regions that differs little from Afghanistan itself.

The point is and remains, the Taliban and Al-Quida type ideals hold little sway and no appeal to the modern developed parts of Pakistan. And directly bordering the Tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan itself are the various Stans to the North. And after Tora Bora in 2002, the Taliban and Al-Quida finds infinite shelter with primitive tribesmen
with similar views almost impossible to police.

But in the past few years the Pakistani army has tried and failed to police its tribal areas. Making the Pakistani army almost as popular as Nato drones.

Then to add injury to insult, as evidenced by the Mumbia attack, the Taliban has learned a new trick. As soon as the Pakistani army attacks them in the tribal regions,
they stir up trouble in India with a small terrorist attack, forcing all the Pakistani army back to defend its borders with India.

As for Ossama bin Laden buying a house in near the Pakistani West Point, as of yet, there is not a single iota of evidence that anyone inside of the Pakistani Government knew anything about it. But still some people inside Pakistan helped OBL buy the safehouse.

BFD, people inside the USA helped shelter the original 911 hijackers for over a period of two years. Does that mean the people of the USA are guilty of sheltering terrorist?

As for me, I will wait and see, but any who think killing OBL is any sign of victory in the war on terror are likely to becomes sadly mistaken.

You can't really tell the difference between those 2, can you.

And for the bolded part, do you honestly believe that no one in the Pakistani government knew about OBL living next door? If so, the picture below becomes relevant regarding you.

 

[tvarad]

Lemon Law's delusional drivel has no basis in reality as to why Pakistani society is imploding from within. As someone who's followed Pakistan for decades as it veered from one crisis to another, I couldn't place a finger on the fundamental malaise that it is afflicted with, until I came across this eloquent piece by a Pakistani writer, no less. It hits the nail on the head, especially the first and last paragraph. I'm going to post it verbatim as I did on another thread discussing Pakistan. All of the civilized world may wonder why it isn't doing the right thing, but this should open eyes as to why it is a problem that's extremely difficult if not impossible to fix.


Not my faith, really
Nadeem F. Paracha (The Dawn, May 8, 2011)

Extremism never rests. It keeps growing like a cancer until it completely devours its host. It is nobody’s friend. It only deals in might gained from coercion. What’s more, even after it has defeated its ideological opponents, it goes on to destroy even those supporters whom it deems too soft or moderate.
This is an aspect of extremism that a lot of its more ‘moderate’ supporters in Pakistan have not comprehended. Educated men and women can be heard and seen concocting outlandish explanations and justifications in a bid to sympathetically define the economic and political reasons behind religious extremists’ acts of terrorism. What they do not realise is that to the extremists these sympathetic ‘moderates’ are as much infidels as any westerner or a non-Muslim.
It seems many moderate Pakistanis who ( rather mindlessly) echo the usual anti-West rhetoric doing the rounds in mosques, madressahs, drawing rooms and TV studios do so for two reasons. But rest assured a firm belief in the ideology of the extremists is the least of these. Because after all, one either has to be clinically insane or stark, raving crazy to fall for an ideology that is based on utter hatred and a ferocious appetite for human blood.
The most prominent reason behind the ideological pitfalls that many Pakistanis find themselves in has something to do with a state of mind that is a culmination of fear, ignorance and guilt. Thanks to the maliciously tempered history taught in schools and colleges, I have noticed that very few young Pakistanis have any ability left in them to question (in an informed manner) what is dished out to them by the courts, the state, the clerics and the televangelists.
This, despite the availability of a vast treasure of knowledge available in bookstores and libraries with which a questioning mind can easily puncture the spew of half-truths and myths spun into the nation’s collective psyche—all in the name of defending the country’s Islamic credentials and the so-called ideology. For example, some ten years ago when Islamic evangelists were out in force asking Pakistanis to stop saying khuda hafiz and replace it with Allah hafiz, no one bothered to ask them why. They heard the word Allah and that was it. No questions asked.
The same social preachers then got enough leverage to go on and ask Pakistanis to stop saying wa-alaikum assalaam to non-Muslims who greet them with asalamalaikum. Sure, these are trivial nuances but the sort that go a long way in gradually turning society into an intolerant whole that some men and women would actually like Pakistan to be. Their weapon is distorted history and selective interpretations of Islamic laws unquestioningly understood as being correct by a majority of Pakistanis.
Learned, rational and modern Muslim leaders and intellectuals of yore like Jinnah and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan have gradually been turned into near-fanatics by those writing our textbooks and harbouring blind hatred for Hindus. So the great leaders of the past are taught in schools as being the original purveyors of a theocratic state, a notion that has no roots in reality whatsoever.
Historians of note, who have convincingly rubbished the history taught in schools, and peddled by the state and its right-wing allies, have been sidelined. A concerted effort to subdue and repress rationalist Islamic scholars of yore and today has been underway by elements pushing in narratives of political Islamists and even some obvious crackpots to portray a highly aggressive, xenophobic and militant image and understanding of Islam and Pakistan.
Through decades of disseminating fantasies of glory and myths about what a Pakistani Muslim is to believe and behave like, advocators of a hybrid version of faith and national ideology—in which traditional understanding of the faith is updated by a myopic and paranoid understanding of modern society—have been successful in turning much of society into an knee-jerk mass of people. This mob has little or no capacity to think beyond what is handed out as faith and patriotism to them.
What goes missing in such a setting is the ability to think and reflect. Knee-jerk applause for so-called popular Islamist causes and conservative social behavior make it a society that is both fodder and food for nihilism—all in the glorious name of jihad, patriotism and Islam.
This misplaced understanding of nationalism and religion is not only the vocation of crackpots and some clerics, but it is also found in our courts of law, the intelligence apparatus, the military and politicians alike. Their propagated goals are the supposed Islamisation and sovereignty of the Pakistani state. But the truth is that so far the many actions taken to achieve this goal have only managed to make society collapse inwards and gradually turn Pakistan into a kind of forbidden island whose inhabitants simply refuse to give up ideological cannibalism, even if this means their existential, economic and diplomatic exclusion from the rest of the world.

 

[EagleKeeper]

This is a false perception, that is perpetuated by repeating it often enough, that it becomes a fact.

The fact is thousands, if not tens of thousands of people have been killed in drone attacks. Daily you can find results of people killed in these drone attacks, streching back to years. Alluding that ground forces cannot do the job is incorrect - the United States in unwilling to commit to ground troops simply because it is safer to use drones.

The Pakistani government does not want to allow US Military units to operate in Pakistan.

It is difficult to state the there have been multi thousands killed in drone attacks. such do not happen that frequently and have not been running for 10 years. A thousand or more people killed every year by drones would be difficult to any country to swallow. Where is the evidence of such a number, or are you pulling it out of the air.
The Pakistan military has also lost thousands in their offensive against the militants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_North-West_Pakistan#Casualties Hence the need to strike peace treaties/pacts, to not continue losing soldiers. I do believe we in Iraq and in Afghanistan have had similar practices, including and not limited to supplying Viagra to elders, throwing (my tax) dollar bills etc.

Recent reports have also surfaced stating an agreement between Musharraf and the United States, that IF there is intelligence that OBL was in Pakistan, the United States will be allowed to unilaterally act with vociferous protests from Pakistan.

Heck, even Wikileaks has released documents stating the agreement on drone attacks, which while an obvious violation of sovereignity, would be allowed to continue, and only met with protests in the Pakistani parliment.

With respect to aid, War is an expensive venture. Given that our need is for Pakistan to act against militants, I would think it is reasonable for Pakistan to request funds. I believe when we fought against Iraq in '91, the bill was footed by Kuwait/Saudia.

Let not your opinions be so jaded that you are only bent on pointing fingers.

If Pakistan is losing that amount of soldiers to combat the militants; then they seem to have a problem using their resources and/or are not properly trained.

The Northern Forces in Afghanistan were able to rout the Taliban initially - forcing many into Pakistan. Their numbers are less than Pakistani military and were less trained.

It would seem that either the Pakistani military is inept in securing their country from the Taliban/AQ and/or choose not to.

By not allowing US/NATO combat units to work with the military indicates that they are afraid of what might be seen/said of their forces or they are scared of foreign forces being misinterpreted by the people - weak government and complacent population.

Many of those "peace" treaties were when the Pakistani military was being beaten back. Then militants saw a chance to get a breather until their next push.

How many treaties were kept. IF the Pakistani government has to cede territory to foreigners; what does that say about them? Because that is what they are doing - abdicating territory because they admit that they can not control it. It is then Pakistan in name only.

 

[Baasha]

The biggest joke here is the Chinese who are scrounging around for American technology from downed aircraft(s) so that they can copy it and make cheap knockoffs. And the Chinese consider themselves an up and coming 'superpower'. LOL...

Pakistan was always idiotic in its foreign policy blinded and consumed by its hatred for India and Hindus. They would rather sleep with a snake in the grass (China) than ally themselves with those who want their country to prosper. Leave it to the dumb fucks in Pakistan to use religious fanaticism to fan the flames of jingoism and foolhardy sycophancy, I mean, patriotism, to further their dangerous cause.

Pakistan will soon realize the folly of their unfounded hatred towards India and their idiotic allegiance with a tyrant like China. Karma, my friends, is indeed a bitch!

 

[routan]

If Pakistan is losing that amount of soldiers to combat the militants; then they seem to have a problem using their resources and/or are not properly trained.

The Northern Forces in Afghanistan were able to rout the Taliban initially - forcing many into Pakistan. Their numbers are less than Pakistani military and were less trained.

It would seem that either the Pakistani military is inept in securing their country from the Taliban/AQ and/or choose not to.

By not allowing US/NATO combat units to work with the military indicates that they are afraid of what might be seen/said of their forces or they are scared of foreign forces being misinterpreted by the people - weak government and complacent population.

Many of those "peace" treaties were when the Pakistani military was being beaten back. Then militants saw a chance to get a breather until their next push.

How many treaties were kept. IF the Pakistani government has to cede territory to foreigners; what does that say about them? Because that is what they are doing - abdicating territory because they admit that they can not control it. It is then Pakistan in name only.

CC, drone attack killed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan. I want to clarify that I did not say thousands are killed "yearly". I said thousands have been killed.

Regarding soldiers dying in battle, I dont understand why you would put a negative spin to that fact. It should be plainly obvious that no army would be as equipped or as trained as our military. Yet we have lost over 3000, most not in direct combat, but in waging a war against insurgents, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The comparison with the battles against Northern Alliance is a false comparison. Those battles happened at the very early onset of Soviet withdrawl, where both the Taliban and Northern Alliance were in its infancy. Over the number of years, both the Taliban and other militants have surely grown in number, weapons and techniques.

Why have we not been able to secure the Afghan border? I am sure with all our might, technological prowess, we might be able to do better than Pakistan, yes? Well, that hasnt happened. But wait, ofcourse the idea that the Pakistan govt is insidious in nature is an idea best sold. So we should all concentrate on just Pakistan's failing, and lets not even consider that we havent been able to secure anything except a small part of Kabul in 8+ years of our presence in Afghanistan.

Cooperation between Pakistan military and US forces/NATO is not a decision I can speak of. I can say however that there certainly has been substantial intelligence sharing, as evidenced by capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and scores of other militants/terrorists. I am sure I would not like Pakistani soldiers patrolling the NYC subway to "protect" me or hunt down terrorists targetting NYC. I would assume Pakistanis would not like non-Pakistani soldiers waging battles with Pakistan's borders. However, they have given covert approval to the drone attacks.

The arguments against the "peace" treaties arent really a conversation point you and I disagree with. The reality is that Pakistani military was unable to sustain the victories and secure the grounds permanently. Can that be changed in the future? Perhaps. Was that a wilful act to allow militants to regroup? I dont think so.

 

[routan]

The biggest joke here is the Chinese who are scrounging around for American technology from downed aircraft(s) so that they can copy it and make cheap knockoffs. And the Chinese consider themselves an up and coming 'superpower'. LOL...

Pakistan was always idiotic in its foreign policy blinded and consumed by its hatred for India and Hindus. They would rather sleep with a snake in the grass (China) than ally themselves with those who want their country to prosper. Leave it to the dumb fucks in Pakistan to use religious fanaticism to fan the flames of jingoism and foolhardy sycophancy, I mean, patriotism, to further their dangerous cause.

Pakistan will soon realize the folly of their unfounded hatred towards India and their idiotic allegiance with a tyrant like China. Karma, my friends, is indeed a bitch!

Cue in the Indian/Hindu inferiority complex. In every MSA event I have been to, Indian Hindus have always shown up to diss their Pakistani counterparts. I would always be surprised seeing one brown skinned person acting out against another brown skinned person. I dont think India can accept Pakistan as an independant country.

No wonder their constant occupation of Kashmir, and the meddling during the 70's which resulted in the division of the country. Yes, I am sure events like those gives credence to the idea of India wanting Pakistan to prosper

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

The biggest joke here is the Chinese who are scrounging around for American technology from downed aircraft(s) so that they can copy it and make cheap knockoffs. And the Chinese consider themselves an up and coming 'superpower'. LOL...

China is already a superpower. It just hasn't developed its military complex like the U.S. has.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Your statement of 10s of thousands average out at over a thousand per year for the past 10 years.

Given that the US drones MAY have been active to 5 years then that translates to 2000 / year average causalities.

I do not think that that is a accurate number.

The Taliban/AQ were much better supplied with weapons when the Northern alliance attacked them and they ran to the hills. While there may have been many more recruits; almost all new ones will have come through Pakistan or from Pakistan.

Politically the US/NATA have been handicapped by not being tasked to control the country - that has been the Afghan government.

The Pakistan government operates under no such constraints. They do not have the will to enforce the government even with all the material support that has been given to them.

I agree with you on the treaties. The government was not intending on allowing a regroup. It was the militants that were willing. Their supply lines were getting long and needed to be refilled. The offer of a cessation of hostilities was advantageous to them and a weak face saving move for the government.

What I am getting at is that while the Pakistani army has the weapons, they have neither the training nor desire to properly secure their territory.

Then how can they complain when the US goes and does the job that they are unable to do.

Is saving face better than decent relations and a chance to take back control of their country?

From your Wiki ink

This article's factual accuracy is disputed.

The Brookings Institution suggests that drone strikes may kill "10 or so civilians" for every militant killed.[10] The Pakistani military has stated that most of those killed were hardcore Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants

I still do not see any evidence of thousands being killed. Max in the link is 2300 over a 7 year period.
If the Pakistani military opinion is correct; for giggles sake, we will divide the amount of causalities be split. so you have just under 1200 civilians killed - nothing like tens of thousands.

Repeating false/unsubstantiated numbers undermines one's arguments.

 

[Karl Agathon]

China is already a superpower. It just hasn't developed its military complex like the U.S. has.

I thank god there are SSBNs always within striking distance of the Red Dragon.

 

[busydude]

No wonder their constant occupation of Kashmir, and the meddling during the 70's which resulted in the division of the country. Yes, I am sure events like those gives credence to the idea of India wanting Pakistan to prosper

WTF?

 

[Darwin333]

If they knew where OBL was we would have. The Americans bit our back by violating us when our guard was down. I say we should tell the USA to fuck off and find their own supply route in to Afghanistan and flush their so called aid down the drain.

We would just start airlifting horrible food to the Marines currently in Afghanistan and tell them they get steak and potatoes if they reopen the supply lines.... by any means necessary.

A few days at most and the routes will be open again but yall damn sure won't like it. On a good note you will get the opportunity to find out how much of a "real ally" China is.