Pakistan thinking about showing secret copter to China

[dabuddha]

If I was truly full of shit I would not have been offered admission into graduate programs of top USA Universities including Harvard, UChicago and NYU.

quotas

 

[The Green Bean]

So you are one of the 12 people that live halfway decent in your country? Well, I guess that would be 11 now that we killed OBL.

My dog has better living conditions than most of your countrymen.

That's why nobody likes you. You waste billions of dollars on dogs while people in Africa starve to death.

 

[PokerGuy]

That's why nobody likes you. You waste billions of dollars on dogs while people in Africa starve to death.

What I earn I can spend any way I wish. I spend my money on my dog because trust me, that dog is a lot more important to me than anyone in some enemy country.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

if you play both sides you eventually get burned. everyone know this.

 

[Sinsear]

That's why nobody likes you. You waste billions of dollars on dogs while people in Africa starve to death.

I would actually help a starving person in Africa. In light of recent events, I wouldn't piss on a person in Pakistan if he was on fire.


Brb. Gonna go snap a pic of my dog by my big screen TV.

 

[routan]

Your statement of 10s of thousands average out at over a thousand per year for the past 10 years.

Given that the US drones MAY have been active to 5 years then that translates to 2000 / year average causalities.

I do not think that that is a accurate number.

The Taliban/AQ were much better supplied with weapons when the Northern alliance attacked them and they ran to the hills. While there may have been many more recruits; almost all new ones will have come through Pakistan or from Pakistan.

Politically the US/NATA have been handicapped by not being tasked to control the country - that has been the Afghan government.

The Pakistan government operates under no such constraints. They do not have the will to enforce the government even with all the material support that has been given to them.

I agree with you on the treaties. The government was not intending on allowing a regroup. It was the militants that were willing. Their supply lines were getting long and needed to be refilled. The offer of a cessation of hostilities was advantageous to them and a weak face saving move for the government.

What I am getting at is that while the Pakistani army has the weapons, they have neither the training nor desire to properly secure their territory.

Then how can they complain when the US goes and does the job that they are unable to do.

Is saving face better than decent relations and a chance to take back control of their country?

From your Wiki ink




I still do not see any evidence of thousands being killed. Max in the link is 2300 over a 7 year period.
If the Pakistani military opinion is correct; for giggles sake, we will divide the amount of causalities be split. so you have just under 1200 civilians killed - nothing like tens of thousands.

Repeating false/unsubstantiated numbers undermines one's arguments.

Wow, this argument is just going into the semantics. I said:

The fact is thousands, if not tens of thousands of people have been killed in drone attacks.

Then I link you to the article which provides the basis for the "thousands" killed. Which is exactly what I said. I didnt say thousands yearly, I didnt say tens of thousands HAVE been killed, or average per year. I said "thousands" have been killed in drone attacks.

You dont think it is an accurate number. Well, those are your thoughts. I dont think your thoughts are accurate. How does one argue this type of invalid point of disucssion?

I am also surprised you're still talking about the Taliban/AQ vs Northern Alliance. If the Northern Alliance was able to push back a better supplied Taliban/AQ, why havent our forces been able to defeat the Taliban and AQ in what, 8 years? Oh, sorry, you already answered that, its Pakistan's fault.

Now we have a new assertion of new Taliban fighters have come through or from Pakistan... without any basis.

I dont remember Afghanistan having any government till 2004. That government too installed Hamid Karzai, a former CIA contractor. But wait, now its not Pakistan to blame, its Afghanistan.

I have already in depth explained the treaties. Perhaps the offer of cessation was for Pakistan military to regroup. Can you speak on hard facts on who needed regrouping more? I cant. I dont see how you can.

What you're getting at it basically nothing. For 2 years, the 9/11 hijackers were within our borders. They even took training in OUR schools. And you are bent on blaming Pakistan on not being able to do their job?!?

You are free to highlight the dispute of factual accuracy. The suggestion by Brookings institution is only a "suggestion". Nothing more. There is no way to verify who is a "militant", and who isnt. The number of deaths comes from an American think tank. Almost all those kiled are lumped as militants.

I am also aghast at how your dismissive attitude of how many civilians were killed. These are human beings, the same as those who died in 9/11.

 

[routan]

Few Indians gives a rat's behind about your s**thole of a country; the only reason why Indians comment is because of the outrageous terror attacks constantly visited on India by the criminals harbored by your army. And the minute India says "we're coming to kick your a*s" you either show your behind or run to the U.S. for protection. When Faisal Shahzad, the wretched ingrate who helped himself to U.S. hospitality and tried to bomb Times Square in return, was caught, all you Pakis in the U.S. were trying to pass yourselves off as Indians. What do you do with such cowards?

Actually, I am an American. And my lineage isnt even from Pakistan. Its funny how you Indians/Hindus dont care about Pakistan, yet have numerous comments about the country.

IIRC, Faisal Shahzad is an American.

Also, its funny this Indian/Hindu doesnt care about Pakistan, while the other Indian/Hindu wants Pakistan to prosper.

 

[routan]

WTF indeed.

It is strange that India doesn't seem to want Pakistan to prosper, since they could send many more terrorists into India if they just had better funding. Oh wait - I guess it's the OPPOSITE of strange . . .

well, i guess this is a fight between you and the other indian. make up your mind, India wants/does not want Pakistan to prosper.

 

[Sinsear]

Actually, I am an American.

Funny; if one were to read your posts he might come to the opposite conclusion.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Are the idiots blaming Pakistan for being the "bad ally" drones? You invade our territory without telling us and then cry foul when we give your downed planes to our real ally? Pakistan should give everything to China and then tell the USA that they are not sorry.

Well in that case, we should just send a cruise missle in and take out the remains of the downed chopper.

 

[routan]

Indeed, several passages from Routon's wiki article tend to undermine his assertion:



Reactions from people in the affected regions:

Also in the same article:

According to a report of the Islamabad-based Conflict Monitoring Center (CMC), as of 2011, more than 2000 persons have been killed, and most of those deaths are of innocent civilians. The CMC termed the CIA drone strikes as an "assassination campaign turning out to be revenge campaign", and showed that 2010 was the deadliest year so far as regards casualties resulting from drone attacks, with 134 strikes inflicting over 900 deaths

Farhat Taj is a research fellow at the Centre for Interdisciplinary Gender Research, University of Oslo, but her "research" on drone warfare must get precedence

 

[routan]

Funny; if one were to read your posts he might come to the opposite conclusion.

Why? Coz I dont agree with certain aspects of American foreign policy? Or because I dont agree with some retarded Americans?

Reading your posts should have everyone conclude you're mentally handicapped.

 

[Sinsear]

Why? Coz I dont agree with certain aspects of American foreign policy? Or because I dont agree with some retarded Americans?

No because you routinely show up to cheer on Islam.

 

[Sinsear]

That's why nobody likes you. You waste billions of dollars on dogs while people in Africa starve to death.

America, Fuck Yeah!!!!! Here's a pic of my dog chilling by the pool. Just for you.

 

[routan]

No because you routinely show up to cheer on Islam.

And Americans cant practice Islam? lol. You ARE a retard.

 

[werepossum]

well, i guess this is a fight between you and the other indian. make up your mind, India wants/does not want Pakistan to prosper.

It's not a fight at all. I don't think India gives a small pile of rat shit whether or not Pakistan prospers, as long as it stops funding/sending terrorists into India.

 

[tvarad]

Actually, I am an American. And my lineage isnt even from Pakistan. Its funny how you Indians/Hindus dont care about Pakistan, yet have numerous comments about the country.

IIRC, Faisal Shahzad is an American.

Also, its funny this Indian/Hindu doesnt care about Pakistan, while the other Indian/Hindu wants Pakistan to prosper.

Whatever. The good thing to know is Faisal Shahzad is now someone's girlfriend in jail. As it should be.

 

[EagleKeeper]

This is a false perception, that is perpetuated by repeating it often enough, that it becomes a fact.

The fact is thousands, if not tens of thousands of people have been killed in drone attacks. Daily you can find results of people killed in these drone attacks, streching back to years. Alluding that ground forces cannot do the job is incorrect - the United States in unwilling to commit to ground troops simply because it is safer to use drones.

The Pakistan military has also lost thousands in their offensive against the militants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_North-West_Pakistan#Casualties Hence the need to strike peace treaties/pacts, to not continue losing soldiers. I do believe we in Iraq and in Afghanistan have had similar practices, including and not limited to supplying Viagra to elders, throwing (my tax) dollar bills etc.

Recent reports have also surfaced stating an agreement between Musharraf and the United States, that IF there is intelligence that OBL was in Pakistan, the United States will be allowed to unilaterally act with vociferous protests from Pakistan.

Heck, even Wikileaks has released documents stating the agreement on drone attacks, which while an obvious violation of sovereignity, would be allowed to continue, and only met with protests in the Pakistani parliment.

With respect to aid, War is an expensive venture. Given that our need is for Pakistan to act against militants, I would think it is reasonable for Pakistan to request funds. I believe when we fought against Iraq in '91, the bill was footed by Kuwait/Saudia.

Let not your opinions be so jaded that you are only bent on pointing fingers.

Wow, this argument is just going into the semantics. I said:
Then I link you to the article which provides the basis for the "thousands" killed. Which is exactly what I said. I didnt say thousands yearly, I didnt say tens of thousands HAVE been killed, or average per year. I said "thousands" have been killed in drone attacks.
Review you actual statement above. The words are "thousands if not tens of thousands". Had you left it at thousands; a matter of perception. Adding the tens of thousands indicate that you have been fed numbers for shock value and are repeating them.

You dont think it is an accurate number. Well, those are your thoughts. I dont think your thoughts are accurate. How does one argue this type of invalid point of discussion?
Which is why I asked for evidence of where you got those numbers. It is your verbiage that triggered this interaction as stated above

I am also surprised you're still talking about the Taliban/AQ vs Northern Alliance. If the Northern Alliance was able to push back a better supplied Taliban/AQ, why havent our forces been able to defeat the Taliban and AQ in what, 8 years? Oh, sorry, you already answered that, its Pakistan's fault.
Do you have a better answer why a better equipped Pakistani military is unable to purge the Taliban from Pakistani territory?

Now we have a new assertion of new Taliban fighters have come through or from Pakistan... without any basis.
You stated that there are more Taliban/militants now than before in Pakistan. I am trying to understand where they are coming from. Not India. There is a limited supply in Afghanistan and those there seem to be moving in/out of the Pakistani border. They are not coming into Afghanistan from Iran or the old Soviet republics - to great of a distance/risk to cross Afghanistan just to get into Pakistan.

But it is easy to fly directly into Pakistan (multiple airlines and locations) or come in by sea. All these new foreign fighters that are popping up; how are they getting there. I would suspect that if they have passports; they would be stamped by Pakistan , not Afghan or Iranian, or Soviet officials.

I dont remember Afghanistan having any government till 2004. That government too installed Hamid Karzai, a former CIA contractor. But wait, now its not Pakistan to blame, its Afghanistan.

I have already in depth explained the treaties. Perhaps the offer of cessation was for Pakistan military to regroup. Can you speak on hard facts on who needed regrouping more? I cant. I dont see how you can.

What you're getting at it basically nothing. For 2 years, the 9/11 hijackers were within our borders. They even took training in OUR schools. And you are bent on blaming Pakistan on not being able to do their job?!?
When the 9/11 people were training; there was not an world wide alert out for them. The US system also does not have the freedom to collect information and question people as does that of Pakistan. You are comparing two countries with different lifestyles and two different types of situations.

One is before 9/11 the other is afterwards. One is an unknown target; the other is a worldwide target had a high security level compound built and the living in the shadow of a premier military base

You are free to highlight the dispute of factual accuracy. The suggestion by Brookings institution is only a "suggestion". Nothing more. There is no way to verify who is a "militant", and who isnt. The number of deaths comes from an American think tank. Almost all those kiled are lumped as militants.
I would trust the opinion of the Pakistani military over a think tank that has no experience in warfare

I am also aghast at how your dismissive attitude of how many civilians were killed. These are human beings, the same as those who died in 9/11.

Above is the quote of yours that started the number crunching. I have highlighted the actual statement that I took offense to.

the word tens is used - to me that means multiples of 10. at a minimum 20 thousand.

Yet your link should less than 2300. Drone attacks have been going on for less than 10 years.

Averaging out - according to the Wiki numbers, that is 230 people per year. And according to the Pakistani military at least half of those are militants.

Now when you take your statement - you are off by a factor of 10 to 20. That type of number inflating is the problem. It is spewed across the boards and picked up as the truth by those that will not analyze are such numbers reasonable - they accept such at face value.

 

[busydude]

well, i guess this is a fight between you and the other indian. make up your mind, India wants/does not want Pakistan to prosper.

India does not want to be held back because of Pakistan.. and the ISI funded insurgency. India cannot afford Pakistan becoming a failed state.. use a little common sense here. When a countries economy improves.. people will try to take advantage of the situation.. not by spewing BS, but by working their asses off to improve their and, eventually, the whole countries standard of living.

Pakistan is going in the opposite direction.. and it is IMO very bad for India and the region. A recent change I saw in the attitude of Indian media/people, myself included, is that no one gives a shit about Pak.. Just 20 years ago newspapers had a lot of space dedicated to India-Pak relations and Kashmir. If you look at modern newspapers of India.. you will understand the attitude of the nation.Articles on Pakistan, Religious tensions have taken a backseat.. and articles on China, US, foreign policy, sports, economy, stock market, entertainment, shopping, travel.. have grown exponentially in frequency every year.

I really feel sad for people who don't seem to understand how much the quality of life has improved since the economic reforms started during the 90's in India. People still think India is a land of snake charmers and mystic swamis. Just like any other country it takes a lot of time for things to change.. and I don't expect everything to happen right away, but as it is right now I think things will be much better for my children in India then what my father had experienced in the past 60 years.

 

[0roo0roo]

pretty standard jerk around from a buncha jerks.

very annoying clinton didn't bomb the f117 wreckage because of "collateral damage". should have set a precedent about it, go near american wreckage, get a cruise missile in your face. thats the one messed up bit about this, obama should have cruise missiled the wreckage to finish it off..

 

[Lemon law]

It's not a fight at all. I don't think India gives a small pile of rat shit whether or not Pakistan prospers, as long as it stops funding/sending terrorists into India.

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A good part of the problem between India and Pakistan, are over ethnic divisions in Kashmir.

But I think the main error in the werepossum position is a lack of understanding about terrorism in general. Terrorist tactics are exactly that, their actions have little to do with government funding or government support.

And Pakistan was largely free of Taliban ifluence until the US and Nato chased the Taliban out of Afghanistan and into the tribal areas of Pakistan. And every time the Pakistani army tries to clean out the Taliban in the tribal areas, the Taliban gets the Pakistani army off its back by creating terrorist incidents in India. And suddenly the Pakistani army has to leave to fortify the border with India.

Basically the same type terrorism happened in civilized Great Britain, over the Irish conflict that lasted 300 or so years.

 

[busydude]

And every time the Pakistani army tries to clean out the Taliban in the tribal areas, the Taliban gets the Pakistani army off its back by creating terrorist incidents in India. And suddenly the Pakistani army has to leave to fortify the border with India.

December 2001 Parliament attacks and the subsequent stand off which lasted for over an year.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

America, Fuck Yeah!!!!! Here's a pic of my dog chilling by the pool. Just for you.

Awww, what a happy puppy.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

If I was truly full of shit I would not have been offered admission into graduate programs of top USA Universities including Harvard, UChicago and NYU.

there are book smart people who are clueless about the world

 

[werepossum]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good part of the problem between India and Pakistan, are over ethnic divisions in Kashmir.

But I think the main error in the werepossum position is a lack of understanding about terrorism in general. Terrorist tactics are exactly that, their actions have little to do with government funding or government support.

And Pakistan was largely free of Taliban ifluence until the US and Nato chased the Taliban out of Afghanistan and into the tribal areas of Pakistan. And every time the Pakistani army tries to clean out the Taliban in the tribal areas, the Taliban gets the Pakistani army off its back by creating terrorist incidents in India. And suddenly the Pakistani army has to leave to fortify the border with India.

Basically the same type terrorism happened in civilized Great Britain, over the Irish conflict that lasted 300 or so years.

Pakistan, like Iran and Syria, is a major sponsor of terrorism. Your opinion of Pakistan as innocent victim is amusing.