The military has no interest in fighting the Taliban. In fact, it has no interest in fighting the "war on terror" since an Afghanistan standing on it's own two feet will lessen it's sphere of influence. It's only doing so because of the U.S. arm twisting and also because of the steady source of income for services provided (which is also why it doesn't want to see this war on terror end).
The military has only one ideological goal and that is to match India sword for sword. You don't build up a nuclear arsenal, the sixth largest army in the world, a spit-and-polish military structure just to fight a raggedy bunch of medieval towel-heads. You do it to be counted amongst the big boys. That is why they were willing to use their arsenal to defend the actions of the Mumbai terrorists but are exhibiting a devil may care attitude at what's happening on the Western border.
Like during Soviet times, what the military wants from the West is access to the latest technology and money without any strings attached as to it's use. That is becoming harder which is why it is throwing such a tantrum.
Now the only fly in the ointment is that you can't grow six inch claws at the expense of the rest of the body parts. And what you are seeing is Pakistan's body withering away and how this plays out with the military is what everyone should be watching.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
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- 0
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
The problem at this point is that they are handily taking over civilian residences and probably keeping their victims within it.
If Pakistan doesn't want an invasion then Pakistan will have to deal with this because we can't target civilian neighbourhoods without confirmation and i'm not even going to enter the area or target anything before you fucking fix that.
I know what i'll find though, young women, tortured to death through rape and then left with their uterus pulled out of them or a gunshot inside of them.
The ISI and Pakistanis don't reallly give a fuck though, do you? Most of you are even on their side, including you per previous posts where you welcomed the Talibans into Pakistan.
I'm going to make this quite fucking clear right now, ANYONE that is on their side is on a list of dead men or women if they come across me or any of the other forces currently in Pakistan, you're not innocent bystanders, you are supporters and as such, you are legitimate targets.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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The problem with the JOS argument is that he is in fact doing it, thus doing much to destabilize the Pakistani government, transforming Al-Quida and the Taliban into the good guys, and Nato and the Pakistani government into the bad guys as they transform the tribal areas of Pakistan into a shooting gallery where no one is safe.
If Nato would just tend to its knitting in Afghanistan and stay out of Pakistan, Al-Quida and the Taliban would be better able to become the bad guys that they are when they play the violence card. And thereby also strengthen the position of the Pakistani army when they come to the rescue.
Its a good part of the tribal area problem, we have too many groups that think they are the good guys, but when they only bring violence and anarchy, they become the public enemy. Sadly, something Nato will not realize even though the shoe fits.
If Nato would just tend to its knitting in Afghanistan and stay out of Pakistan, Al-Quida and the Taliban would be better able to become the bad guys that they are when they play the violence card. And thereby also strengthen the position of the Pakistani army when they come to the rescue.
Its a good part of the tribal area problem, we have too many groups that think they are the good guys, but when they only bring violence and anarchy, they become the public enemy. Sadly, something Nato will not realize even though the shoe fits.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
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Son, there IS no Pakistani government that has control over these areas, the ISI is cooperating with them (the pedophiles that torture innocent girls, aka, your heroes).
I have tried to describe to you who they are and yet you see them as good people.
You are the most insane human being on the internet next to TGB.
As their ally, you are part of the enemy.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
The JOS delusion is largely contained here, " I have tried to describe to you who they are and yet you see them as good people. "
Wrong, I don't see them as good or bad people, but as human beings who think the way they do, partly because they have not been exposed to modern
ideas, and partly because they have to look to their own personal safety.
And when you play ideologist father know best with their lives, they will use their own reasoning to decide. And when you add injury to insult fear comes out of the skies to kill, they may fear you but they will not ever love you. In short, whoever uses the most violence loses, which you fail to note even as you keep losing because you use the wrong tactics.
Wrong, I don't see them as good or bad people, but as human beings who think the way they do, partly because they have not been exposed to modern
ideas, and partly because they have to look to their own personal safety.
And when you play ideologist father know best with their lives, they will use their own reasoning to decide. And when you add injury to insult fear comes out of the skies to kill, they may fear you but they will not ever love you. In short, whoever uses the most violence loses, which you fail to note even as you keep losing because you use the wrong tactics.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
So you choose to be naive in the face of all information presented to you because to you ideology is more important than reality?
I have no ideology, you are the one with the ideology while i do have a feeling that pre teen and teenage girls might NOT want their uterus torn right out of their vagina after a gangrape or being shot in their vagina and left to die but what the fuck do i know. THAT is what you are defending because "perhaps they like to live that way".
You are a disgusting piece of shit.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
Now JOS is deep in denial by saying, "I have no ideology"
Yet you think you have a right to come half way around the world and kill people, if your own ideology is not the justification for what you do, all that is left is you just like killing people.
Believe it or not JOS, we have the same end goals, I just happen to strongly believe we are using the exact wrong tactics, which is why the Nato side is losing and losing badly in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. If we want to win and defeat AL-Quida and the Taliban, which is more an idea than a enemy, that war will not be won militarily. Something no one can escape noticing is the fact that our side is losing with the very tactics you advocate.
And because the Taliban idea is vastly different than the Al-Quida idea, a one size fits all military response is also doomed.
Yet you think you have a right to come half way around the world and kill people, if your own ideology is not the justification for what you do, all that is left is you just like killing people.
Believe it or not JOS, we have the same end goals, I just happen to strongly believe we are using the exact wrong tactics, which is why the Nato side is losing and losing badly in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. If we want to win and defeat AL-Quida and the Taliban, which is more an idea than a enemy, that war will not be won militarily. Something no one can escape noticing is the fact that our side is losing with the very tactics you advocate.
And because the Taliban idea is vastly different than the Al-Quida idea, a one size fits all military response is also doomed.
Lemon Law,
Keep dreaming that NATO is losing. Maybe the U.S. is trying to get out of the unpopular Iraq war post-haste but whatever happens, you can bet Afghanistan/Pakistan is one place they aren't going to leave anytime soon. And that place is going to be fixed, even if it has to be by turning it into glass.
A tale of two Pakistani armies:
In Taliban?s Surge in Pakistan, a Pattern of Guile and Force
And why is the army, Pakistan's perpetual savior, nowhere to be seen? Because it is too busy with it's obsessive quest to wrest Kashmir from India:
Pak army pushing guerrillas into Kashmir: Indian Army
Hillary Clinton has finally acknowledged the charade being played by the Pakistani Army when she called on the Pakistani intelligentsia to wake up to the existential danger facing their country. But this is all new stuff to a people who have been conditioned to plan and prepare for the ultimate confrontation with arch-enemy, India.
In Taliban?s Surge in Pakistan, a Pattern of Guile and Force
- "...
That Buner fell should be no surprise, local people say. Last fall, the inspector general of police in North-West Frontier Province, Malik Naveed Khan, complained that his officers were being attacked and killed by the hundreds.
Mr. Khan was so desperate ? and had been so thoroughly abandoned by the military and the government ? that he was relying on citizen posses like the one that stood up to the Taliban last August."
And why is the army, Pakistan's perpetual savior, nowhere to be seen? Because it is too busy with it's obsessive quest to wrest Kashmir from India:
Pak army pushing guerrillas into Kashmir: Indian Army
- "...
The Indian Army on Saturday accused its Pakistani counterparts of pushing guerrillas into the Kashmir Valley. To back their claim, Indian Army officials produced a Pakistani national who had infiltrated into the border state a fortnight back.
Saqib Moinullah 25, a resident of North West Frontier Province (NWFP) in Pakistan, said at a press conference here on Saturday he had crossed into India through the Gurez sector of the Line of Control (LOC) along with 120 other people, including 31 guerrillas of the Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) outfit. The rest of the group comprised 40 porters and snow beaters and guides.
"I was motivated for joining the jihad (Holy War) as the people told me there was oppression in Kashmir," Moinullah said.
"I was imparted training and sent across to join the other militants of the group here."
..."
Hillary Clinton has finally acknowledged the charade being played by the Pakistani Army when she called on the Pakistani intelligentsia to wake up to the existential danger facing their country. But this is all new stuff to a people who have been conditioned to plan and prepare for the ultimate confrontation with arch-enemy, India.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
Officers and soldiers can't afford an ideology, we do what we are ordered to do within the limits of our code.
Please tell me what the difference is between the Taliban and the Al Quaida ideas, if anything i'd say i respect Al Quaida more than the Taliban, at least they have the will to try and do something with their lives at stake while the Taliban only use civilians for their own pleasures.
They pretend that they have a cause but in reality, they are just moving because if you kill enough pre teen girls you'll eventually run out of them.
We've had this discussion many times, you never learn, you have your ideology and it's set in stone, reality isn't something you give a shit about.
As i said, you are pathetic and you are disgusting to me.
We will win this one, that you can count on, and it's not just TFB it's special forces from over 45 countries that are involved here, most notable are French and Canadian elite troops in the area around and beyond the border while other troops (such as us) direct attacks. You know WHY 30+ Talibans die every single day? It's not because the targeting systems have gotten better.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
He's not dreaming, he's hoping we will fail because that is who he is, he has said so before, that he is rooting for the Talibans is obvious to anyone who can read his idiotic posts.
He's wrong, you're right and what's more, Obama is going all the way on this one.
Fucking change we can believe in!
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
At least JOS asks a direct question with "Please tell me what the difference is between the Taliban and the Al Quaida ideas, if anything i'd say i respect Al Quaida more than the Taliban, at least they have the will to try and do something with their lives at stake while the Taliban only use civilians for their own pleasures."
The motives are Al-Quida are much the same as in Iraq, they want to destabilize what they think of as the great Satin, namely the Western powers. And to do so, Al-Quida uses terrorists tactics and revels in creating anarchy and violence worldwide. And while AL-Quida was never more than 15% of the various Iraqi insurgencies, AL-Quida got the ole heave ho from their Sunni hosts when the Sunnies wised up and realized that same Al-Quida tactic of terrorism, anarchy, and violence fell mainly on them, as the only major ethnic group in Iraq that would host A;-Quida.
The Taliban on the other hand is a homegrown movement who seek to bring order out of chaos. All be it with brutal tactics, but an orderly society under their rule is their vision, maybe not by all the leaders, but by most of their supporters. And their vision is at best regional domination. With the main Taliban belief being that Afghanistan can be a paradise on earth if only the foreign devils are kept out. And to a certain extent many of the Afghan people supported the Taliban because the anarchy, corruption, and violence after the Russian left was far worse than the brutal period between the rise of the Taliban and 911. And as Nato came after 911, its done nothing to stop the return of violence, corruption, and anarchy. Thus proving the Taliban basically correct that the root of Afghan woes are foreign invaders.
The double problem that Nato has problems with is they have totally inadequate troop numbers to bring any measure of order, yet have too much military technological superiority to be ever dislodged. Thus dooming all of Afghanistan to perpetual anarchy, corruption, and violence, at exactly the time the basic
Afghan man on the street wants a safe and stable life under rules they understand.
JOS, despite the claim that you just follow orders, you still advocate your own failing ideology on this forum, while I merely point out your ideology is not working the way you want with the ultimate arbiters in Afghanistan, namely the Afghan people. And until your military superiors get more in tune with winning over the Afghan people with currencies that benefit them, we will flat out continue to lose ground, even if Nato, like the 800 pound gorilla can sleep wherever it wants, its will still amount to the 800 pound gorilla always sleeping on a small ant hill while insurgents run wild everywhere else.
You may think this is a just a military war, and understand killing people, but its still all about universal human Psychology the same world wide. Among other things, the Taliban understands and uses the psychological messages that appeal to Afghans far better than Nato. And while we may both hope Nato wins, unlike you, I am a realist and realize Nato is flat out using the wrong tactics, and until we start showing the Afghan people that we understand
their plight and start fighting anarchy and corruption, and then commit to making their lives better and not worse, Nato will continue making no headway while the Taliban and AL-Quida gain strength.
The motives are Al-Quida are much the same as in Iraq, they want to destabilize what they think of as the great Satin, namely the Western powers. And to do so, Al-Quida uses terrorists tactics and revels in creating anarchy and violence worldwide. And while AL-Quida was never more than 15% of the various Iraqi insurgencies, AL-Quida got the ole heave ho from their Sunni hosts when the Sunnies wised up and realized that same Al-Quida tactic of terrorism, anarchy, and violence fell mainly on them, as the only major ethnic group in Iraq that would host A;-Quida.
The Taliban on the other hand is a homegrown movement who seek to bring order out of chaos. All be it with brutal tactics, but an orderly society under their rule is their vision, maybe not by all the leaders, but by most of their supporters. And their vision is at best regional domination. With the main Taliban belief being that Afghanistan can be a paradise on earth if only the foreign devils are kept out. And to a certain extent many of the Afghan people supported the Taliban because the anarchy, corruption, and violence after the Russian left was far worse than the brutal period between the rise of the Taliban and 911. And as Nato came after 911, its done nothing to stop the return of violence, corruption, and anarchy. Thus proving the Taliban basically correct that the root of Afghan woes are foreign invaders.
The double problem that Nato has problems with is they have totally inadequate troop numbers to bring any measure of order, yet have too much military technological superiority to be ever dislodged. Thus dooming all of Afghanistan to perpetual anarchy, corruption, and violence, at exactly the time the basic
Afghan man on the street wants a safe and stable life under rules they understand.
JOS, despite the claim that you just follow orders, you still advocate your own failing ideology on this forum, while I merely point out your ideology is not working the way you want with the ultimate arbiters in Afghanistan, namely the Afghan people. And until your military superiors get more in tune with winning over the Afghan people with currencies that benefit them, we will flat out continue to lose ground, even if Nato, like the 800 pound gorilla can sleep wherever it wants, its will still amount to the 800 pound gorilla always sleeping on a small ant hill while insurgents run wild everywhere else.
You may think this is a just a military war, and understand killing people, but its still all about universal human Psychology the same world wide. Among other things, the Taliban understands and uses the psychological messages that appeal to Afghans far better than Nato. And while we may both hope Nato wins, unlike you, I am a realist and realize Nato is flat out using the wrong tactics, and until we start showing the Afghan people that we understand
their plight and start fighting anarchy and corruption, and then commit to making their lives better and not worse, Nato will continue making no headway while the Taliban and AL-Quida gain strength.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course Fear NO Evil is trying to be sarcastic while implying its my position, its not, and until
you can at least advocate something, I dare say Fear No Evil has not advanced this thread in any way.
Whitecloak
Diamond Member
- May 4, 2001
- 6,074
- 2
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Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
If we read between the lines, we can see all Pakistani parties concerned trying to avoid the open house to house warfare that would make the homes of civilians into the battleground and the victims.
Its hard for people in the West to understand this nightmare, but put yourself in their shoes, if an open gunbattle involving two or more big armed groups suddenly erupted in your hometown and there is no place to run to that is safe, how would you feel? Maybe its one thing if its over fast, but when it looks to be a perpetual thing, attitudes turn more pragmatic.
Are you going to wait months and years for Palehorse to ride to your rescue when he can't even do anything in Afghanistan? Or maybe the Nato airforce can rescue you by bombing everything, your home included, back to the stone age. We have to remember that the Pakistani army and the Taliban are both staffed by many Pakistani's, Nato and Al-Quida are totally foreign entities helping to stir up the hornet's nest.
The US tried the same stunt in Vietnam when N. Vietnam only had a population of 15 million or so. And we had 500,000 troops and still lost.
Afghanistan has a population of some 31 million, the Tribal areas of Pakistan adds many millions more, while Pakistan has a population of 165 million. And now Nato in Afghanistan is under 100,000 troops that have done little to bring anything to improve the anarchy, corruption, and chaos they re-imported to Afghanistan.
Its still a battle of ideas, when we drive the Taliban underground and declare open season on what amounts to the sons of the Afghan people, the metric becomes just violence. If one member of the Taliban is a rotten person, they all are in collective guilt generalities. Which becomes a self fulfilling prophesy when we declare open season on them and anyone in the vicinity, and now after eight years and all those dead Taliban, there are more than when we started. Maybe we need to get a clue, the violence card is a loser for Nato.
Its hard for people in the West to understand this nightmare, but put yourself in their shoes, if an open gunbattle involving two or more big armed groups suddenly erupted in your hometown and there is no place to run to that is safe, how would you feel? Maybe its one thing if its over fast, but when it looks to be a perpetual thing, attitudes turn more pragmatic.
Are you going to wait months and years for Palehorse to ride to your rescue when he can't even do anything in Afghanistan? Or maybe the Nato airforce can rescue you by bombing everything, your home included, back to the stone age. We have to remember that the Pakistani army and the Taliban are both staffed by many Pakistani's, Nato and Al-Quida are totally foreign entities helping to stir up the hornet's nest.
The US tried the same stunt in Vietnam when N. Vietnam only had a population of 15 million or so. And we had 500,000 troops and still lost.
Afghanistan has a population of some 31 million, the Tribal areas of Pakistan adds many millions more, while Pakistan has a population of 165 million. And now Nato in Afghanistan is under 100,000 troops that have done little to bring anything to improve the anarchy, corruption, and chaos they re-imported to Afghanistan.
Its still a battle of ideas, when we drive the Taliban underground and declare open season on what amounts to the sons of the Afghan people, the metric becomes just violence. If one member of the Taliban is a rotten person, they all are in collective guilt generalities. Which becomes a self fulfilling prophesy when we declare open season on them and anyone in the vicinity, and now after eight years and all those dead Taliban, there are more than when we started. Maybe we need to get a clue, the violence card is a loser for Nato.
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