Pakistan is in danger of collapse within months

[Exterous]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: chucky2
Wow, I had no idea the US/West had killed 3 million people....where'd you get that number again?

Chuck

Out of his ass, probably. Or maybe the Taliban is running a killboard?

He does, however, say something interesting:

3000 Americans are worth more than 3million Muslims

Aside from the fact that he's implying that Muslims and Americans are entirely different things (not always the case), he's forgetting something about human nature. I, as an American citizen, value the lives of my fellow American citizens more than the lives of some random people halfway across the world who potentially have values antagonistic to my own. Just like he, as presumably a Pakistani citizen who may have values that are different from mine, likely values his own life and those of the people around him more than he values mine.

And I think that's the reason why most people here despise Americans. Because they only care for themselves. I bet most people on this forum would accept $500 in exchange for some random person killed in Afghanistan if there was no guilt involved. And I think that is precisely what's happening in the world. To defend American borders against at attack that would kill 10,000 Americans they don't mind killing 100,000 innocent civilians elsewhere. The mistake you make is that with an attitude like that you except the families of the 100,000 you kill to offer their sympathies to the 10,000 that would supposedly have been killed if not for the pre-emtive action. I am a muslim and will therefore look at the world through muslim philosophy. Preemtive killing is oppression. And a charge can only be laid on something that is apparent. The current American policy of kill before getting killed and detain without charges is in my eyes barbaric.

If you are taking 'most people' on this forum to be an accurate corss section of America your sample size is a bit scewed. And, if we are taking small, scewed sample sizes, I don't personally know one person who would trade $500 for one anonymous life in Afghanistan.

I will admit there is a sense of 'My country's citizens are more important to me than another country's citizens' but that is hardly a 'fault' of America alone. I think you would be hard rpessed to find a leader of a country who says otherwise

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
The current American policy of kill before getting killed and detain without charges is in my eyes barbaric.

I would say you should refine the statement above. The whole goal of an Army is to kill before being killed. There may be agressive stance differences (Rules of Engagement) but to the best of my knowledge there is no army that would rather be killed by an enemy actively trying to kill them than to kill the enemy first. You may find that stance globally barbaric - thats fine. But its more than just America's army that has that stance.

 

[Lemon law]

I think we are going so far afield that we miss the point, if we in the Western world and Nato, so alienate the populations that we are trying to save from the Taliban, we cut our own throats and cannot win in the end.

Learn and live it.

The fact is that the Taliban ideology is not that much different from the way the people in Afghanistan and the tribal regions have lived their lives for centuries. But in the bulk of the Muslim world, including the vast vast majority of the people in Pakistan, modern ideas and practices long ago displaced
Taliban type ideas. And those modern Muslims will not accept any Taliban crapola so the Taliban expansion has basically reached its limits. And when modern ideas and technology of the non-military type reach the Taliban controlled areas, everyone, including the Taliban will see Taliban ideas just do not work.

Instead we fight the war with exactly the wrong ammunition, making the Taliban more popular and not less popular, as the population looks backward to a better time when meddlesome westerners were not there to screw things up, and simply causing the population to embrace the past more firmly.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think we are going so far afield that we miss the point, if we in the Western world and Nato, so alienate the populations that we are trying to save from the Taliban, we cut our own throats and cannot win in the end.

Learn and live it.

The fact is that the Taliban ideology is not that much different from the way the people in Afghanistan and the tribal regions have lived their lives for centuries. But in the bulk of the Muslim world, including the vast vast majority of the people in Pakistan, modern ideas and practices long ago displaced
Taliban type ideas. And those modern Muslims will not accept any Taliban crapola so the Taliban expansion has basically reached its limits. And when modern ideas and technology of the non-military type reach the Taliban controlled areas, everyone, including the Taliban will see Taliban ideas just do not work.

Instead we fight the war with exactly the wrong ammunition, making the Taliban more popular and not less popular, as the population looks backward to a better time when meddlesome westerners were not there to screw things up, and simply causing the population to embrace the past more firmly.

Do not make the mistake the Taliban are gaining ground in Pakistan and even Afghanistan because the people like them more than NATO. The Taliban gain ground by instilling fear and intimidation, executing any who get in their way in the most brutal ways imaginable. A husband/wife were recently executed in Pakistan in public by the Taliban. The US/NATO forces are not creating more terrorists. Rather, the Taliban raid schools and villages seizing young men and forcing many to join their ranks.

You are and have been completely wrong about the Afghan/Pakistan and Iraq wars. You were wrong about the surge in Iraq and what it allowed political and economic leaders to do and you are very wrong about the Taliban and NATO being the cause of the problems.

 

[Lemon law]

its easy for the dphantom to say, "You are and have been completely wrong about the Afghan/Pakistan and Iraq wars. You were wrong about the surge in Iraq and what it allowed political and economic leaders to do and you are very wrong about the Taliban and NATO being the cause of the problems."

But its a lot harder to stomach the results of what eight years of the Nato presence has brought. And its even harder to deny that the Taliban are getting steadily stronger while Nato is making nothing but negative progress. If that is what you want, what the hell is wrong with you?

I do not know about you dphantom, but I do not like those results and realize that changing tactics are needed to get desired results.

As for the surge in Iraq, as originally outlined by GWB, it was a busted play, but due to the fact that other unrelated things happened at the same time, the Iraqi evidence on the ground has some similarities to what I now advocate in Afghanistan.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: chucky2
Wow, I had no idea the US/West had killed 3 million people....where'd you get that number again?

Chuck

Out of his ass, probably. Or maybe the Taliban is running a killboard?

He does, however, say something interesting:

3000 Americans are worth more than 3million Muslims

Aside from the fact that he's implying that Muslims and Americans are entirely different things (not always the case), he's forgetting something about human nature. I, as an American citizen, value the lives of my fellow American citizens more than the lives of some random people halfway across the world who potentially have values antagonistic to my own. Just like he, as presumably a Pakistani citizen who may have values that are different from mine, likely values his own life and those of the people around him more than he values mine.

And I think that's the reason why most people here despise Americans. Because they only care for themselves. I bet most people on this forum would accept $500 in exchange for some random person killed in Afghanistan if there was no guilt involved. And I think that is precisely what's happening in the world. To defend American borders against at attack that would kill 10,000 Americans they don't mind killing 100,000 innocent civilians elsewhere. The mistake you make is that with an attitude like that you except the families of the 100,000 you kill to offer their sympathies to the 10,000 that would supposedly have been killed if not for the pre-emtive action. I am a muslim and will therefore look at the world through muslim philosophy. Preemtive killing is oppression. And a charge can only be laid on something that is apparent. The current American policy of kill before getting killed and detain without charges is in my eyes barbaric.

TGB: We've paid Billions of dollars directly to your government to rid the Taliban off your lands (and hence out of your people's hair). In turn, your elected government has made deals with the Taliban, deliberately ignored the problem (both at the onset, and ongoingly), given obvious aid to them, and generally hasn't really done sh1t at a National level to rid yourselves of this problem.

What's truly sad is that, the American's/West, value your people's life more than your own Leadership (both National government, and local leaders in the areas in question). Our side goes far out of the way to avoid killing innocents - more than any other armed force in history. Given the Taliban MO, to blend in with the civilian population, I think we've done about all we can do short of doing nothing: Which is exactly what you seem to want us to do based on your past postings.

Doing nothing is exactly what has got your uncoperative government in the predicament it's in....so, doing nothing, that's off the table.

If you and your people truly want to be rid of The Great Satan (which is purely a figment of your imaginations, fueled by your political and religous Leadership essentially brainwashing your populace starting at age 0), then you only have to go and take care of the crazies living amongst yourselves that only want religous, political, and gender oppression.

But, you all have chosen the opposite route.

What does that say about you all over there?????

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

P.S. No one, no one, except for the freak few here in the US/West, would take any amount of money for a dead innocent Anyone.

We'd pay money for dead Taliban/al-Queda (and in a sense we do already)...

That you even form the thoughts to think this truly shows just how far brainwashed you really are. That's not my skew, that's going to be anyone's perception here of your example.

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: chucky2
Wow, I had no idea the US/West had killed 3 million people....where'd you get that number again?

Chuck

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chucky2, its not that Nato has killed 3 million people, its that there are not that many people in the tribal regions, and at least three million of them have had their lives vastly disrupted.
Driven into refuge camps, losing relatives, living long term lives of no safety, and most of those civilians
find that intolerable. And our pea brain generals simply do not take their suffering into account. It may not be deliberate killing, but its still indifference and denial, is there a dimes worth of difference?

I'm sure our "pea brain" generals realize this LL, however what do you want them to do about it? They cannot help the people in Pakistan, only Pakistan is allowing Pakistan to help them - well, now because of Pakistan Leadership sympathy to the Taliban, I guess it's more accurate to say only the Taliban can allow us to help them....and I think we can both agree that's not going to happen.

And while you live half a world away in absolute safety, these decisions rain bombs on their heads. How would you feel if you were in their shoes? If someone a half a world away made some decision that made your life a living hell for the foreseeable future?

You make it sound as if we're carpet bombing the whole region, slaughtering civilians left and right on purpose - please, lets keep it at least somewhat real here. But, I will tell you how I'd feel. I'd ask, Why are the American's dropping bombs over my head? And the answer is my own people are allowing the Taliban to live amongst my own population. The same Taliban that's oppressing me and my people. So, knowing that, I'd either fight them, provide intelligence on them if possible, live there with the possibility of being k1lled accidentally, or, move the F away. Seriously, what other options will they have?

In a sense, that is what Bin Laden and a few of his supporters did on 911, even if it was a one time deal. So we punish the civilians in the tribal areas of Pakistan to avenge it even if they had nothing to do with it?????????

The point being, BIN Laden and AL-Quida can launch such attacks from anywhere. Nor do we make ourselves safer by pissing off billions of people while AL-Quida gets recruits as a result.

We aren't punishing the civilians LL, the Pakistani/Taliban/Local Leadership's are in effect doing that. Short of going in on the ground en masse, we can do one of two things: Bomb, or Observe. Observing is what the Pakistani Leadership has been doing. If you only Observe, then what you'll be observing is yourself losing. So, we Bomb. And we bomb as well and as accurate as we can.

What specifically would you have the military do LL? Invade Pakistan? Do nothing? Ask the Taliban to leave nicely (these are the people that rape little girls before killing them...you think they're going to care to bargain when they've got their Pakistani Leadership sympathizers feeding them intel and support??? Give a real option here that you want to see our collective military do....

Chuck

 

[Lemon law]

The Chucky2 delusion is mainly contained here with, " You make it sound as if we're carpet bombing the whole region, slaughtering civilians left and right on purpose - please, lets keep it at least somewhat real here. But, I will tell you how I'd feel. I'd ask, Why are the American's dropping bombs over my head? And the answer is my own people are allowing the Taliban to live amongst my own population. The same Taliban that's oppressing me and my people. So, knowing that, I'd either fight them, provide intelligence on them if possible, live there with the possibility of being k1lled accidentally, or, move the F away. Seriously, what other options will they have?"

And two things are wrong with that (1) They don't think like you as evidence shows, if anything the people in the tribal regions are hopping mad at Nato.
over even the use of drones. (2) And no they don't think that if just the Taliban would go away so Nato can win is the option." What they care about is the entity that breaks the existing order by stirring up the hornet nest that gets their people own stung. And this time its the Pakistani army being pressured into doing it, but they also realize its Nato pressure that is causing it.

Compared to the always ongoing tribal struggles for domination that have going on for centuries, the Taliban is nothing new. And if the Taliban's only end goal was to rape little girls like some propagandists are fond of repeating, they would have butchered by very nasty tribal leaders who vastly outnumber the Taliban long ago.

I now ask you the same question I asked the dphantom, what part of the results of the last eight years of Nato in Afghanistan and Pakistan are you happy with?

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The Chucky2 delusion is mainly contained here with, " You make it sound as if we're carpet bombing the whole region, slaughtering civilians left and right on purpose - please, lets keep it at least somewhat real here. But, I will tell you how I'd feel. I'd ask, Why are the American's dropping bombs over my head? And the answer is my own people are allowing the Taliban to live amongst my own population. The same Taliban that's oppressing me and my people. So, knowing that, I'd either fight them, provide intelligence on them if possible, live there with the possibility of being k1lled accidentally, or, move the F away. Seriously, what other options will they have?"

There is this thing called a Quote button...I know you like to start off your responses trying to phrase the issue with "The Chucky2 delusion" or some other such nonsense, but, please, learn to use the Quote button...it's there for a reason.

And two things are wrong with that (1) They don't think like you as evidence shows, if anything the people in the tribal regions are hopping mad at Nato.
over even the use of drones. (2) And no they don't think that if just the Taliban would go away so Nato can win is the option." What they care about is the entity that breaks the existing order by stirring up the hornet nest that gets their people own stung. And this time its the Pakistani army being pressured into doing it, but they also realize its Nato pressure that is causing it.

And yet, they're either not mad enough in Pakistan to kick the Taliban out, or, they are, but can't, or, they're sympathetic to them. None of those things we can do a thing about....except quit. I asked you for your solution: Is Quitting your solution? I noticed you didn't answer....

Compared to the always ongoing tribal struggles for domination that have going on for centuries, the Taliban is nothing new. And if the Taliban's only end goal was to rape little girls like some propagandists are fond of repeating, they would have butchered by very nasty tribal leaders who vastly outnumber the Taliban long ago.

Really????? What makes you think these tribal leaders have control of, or possess, forces powerful enough to throw the Taliban out, and keep them out? Do you seriously think some small town comprised of mostly total civilians is going to be able to defend itself - even if it wanted to - against a bunch of heavily armed thugs???

I now ask you the same question I asked the dphantom, what part of the results of the last eight years of Nato in Afghanistan and Pakistan are you happy with?

Given the resources that have been made available there, I'm happy. Overall, because of the total shortage of resources, I'm not happy at all - and I've never said otherwise. I've said before, multiple times, that before we ever went into these countries, we should have had an aid package of such biblical proportions literally waiting in the wings. We should go into these places militarily, and immediately begin hiring - and paying - all available local workers to start on civilian infrastructure projects. Projects that are funded by us, and have the materials provided by us....both as long as it takes to get the local and National governments to take over in that regard. That way, there's no 50% unemployment and Muslim males sitting around unable to provide in any way for their families....that's a bad recipe for disaster.

But, the generals on the ground, nor the people operating under them, make those calls LL...the politicians in Washington do. When the politicians in Washington start delivering the resources, and access, the people on the ground need, then you'll see more results. Until then...it's a stalemate....and the Taliban has nothing to lose by waiting.

I've answered your question, now answer mine, "What specifically would you have the military do LL?":

<insert LL response on what he wants the military to do>

Chuck

 

[Lemon law]

Chucky2 asks, "I've answered your question, now answer mine, "What specifically would you have the military do LL?":

Fair enough chucky2 even though I have answered your questions countless times in the past.

To start with, quit militarizing the problem, in a war of ideas, guns and bullets remove our superior position. We have to show that both democracy and modernity is the way to go. In a battle of those ideas, the Taliban is the sure loser. And we are damn fools to not drive a wedge between AL-Quida and the Taliban. What we have failed to do is provide any economic aid to develop anything, even if we have to start with Kabul and build outward, instead we sided with corrupt war lords and Afghanistan has no working government. Their court system functions only by bribes, drug money corrupts everything, and Nato does nothing about it. The people in the Tribal regions are quite rightly horrified that the same will be imported into their regions, and will ally with even the likes of Al-Quida to prevent it.

And with Nato declares open season on Taliban members, the very sons of the Afghan people in the land of their birth, can we be surprised that they declare open season on Nato. Thus driving any war of ideas that Nato can win underground.

Its hard for me to simply blame our Nato troops who try to carry out the ideas of pea brained generals who have failed to learn the lessons of the past eight years. I am hoping that Petraeus and Obama learn those lessons, but we must also blame our cheapskate congress who have done nothing to pony up the economic aid it will take to win those battles of ideas.

Until we can set the example of a better way, I am depressed and almost resigned to the fact that Afghanistan is going to be a lose lose lose for everyone but Al-Quida for the foreseeable future.

Its why I post on Anand tech in the hopes I can make that difference, its in many ways Vietnam all over again, we all know how that ended, and I still cry for some of my high school buddies that are now nothing but names carved on a black granite wall. Now monuments to generals and politicians of yesteryear who also thought mere military power could do anything.

I have thick skin, I have been dumped on and derided on this forum for years, but I will gladly take on those insults if I can make anything better. Nor should I limit my tears to just those 58,000 names carved into the wall, millions of people in Vietnam also died for nothing.

 

[chucky2]

So how are we going to provide this aid to Pakistan (the subject of this thread)?

How are we going to deliver aid to the Afghani's when the Taliban come and either consume those resources, and/or destroy them, and/or punish the people in these locales for "cooperating" with the Western forces?

You still have not provided what you want the military to do. Time after time in these forums, we've heard how we shouldn't be meddling in the affairs of other countries. Now in Afghanistan we've got an elected government there (corruption throughout though it may be), and you want us to trash that post election.

Can you make up your mind?

Chuck

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: chucky2
P.S. No one, no one, except for the freak few here in the US/West, would take any amount of money for a dead innocent Anyone.

We'd pay money for dead Taliban/al-Queda (and in a sense we do already)...

That you even form the thoughts to think this truly shows just how far brainwashed you really are. That's not my skew, that's going to be anyone's perception here of your example.

Chuck

I think indirectly everyone does. Look at the Iraq war which was based on securing strategic resources.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: chucky2
Wow, I had no idea the US/West had killed 3 million people....where'd you get that number again?

Chuck

Out of his ass, probably. Or maybe the Taliban is running a killboard?

He does, however, say something interesting:

3000 Americans are worth more than 3million Muslims

Aside from the fact that he's implying that Muslims and Americans are entirely different things (not always the case), he's forgetting something about human nature. I, as an American citizen, value the lives of my fellow American citizens more than the lives of some random people halfway across the world who potentially have values antagonistic to my own. Just like he, as presumably a Pakistani citizen who may have values that are different from mine, likely values his own life and those of the people around him more than he values mine.

And I think that's the reason why most people here despise Americans. Because they only care for themselves. I bet most people on this forum would accept $500 in exchange for some random person killed in Afghanistan if there was no guilt involved. And I think that is precisely what's happening in the world. To defend American borders against at attack that would kill 10,000 Americans they don't mind killing 100,000 innocent civilians elsewhere. The mistake you make is that with an attitude like that you except the families of the 100,000 you kill to offer their sympathies to the 10,000 that would supposedly have been killed if not for the pre-emtive action. I am a muslim and will therefore look at the world through muslim philosophy. Preemtive killing is oppression. And a charge can only be laid on something that is apparent. The current American policy of kill before getting killed and detain without charges is in my eyes barbaric.

TGB: We've paid Billions of dollars directly to your government to rid the Taliban off your lands (and hence out of your people's hair). In turn, your elected government has made deals with the Taliban, deliberately ignored the problem (both at the onset, and ongoingly), given obvious aid to them, and generally hasn't really done sh1t at a National level to rid yourselves of this problem.

What's truly sad is that, the American's/West, value your people's life more than your own Leadership (both National government, and local leaders in the areas in question). Our side goes far out of the way to avoid killing innocents - more than any other armed force in history. Given the Taliban MO, to blend in with the civilian population, I think we've done about all we can do short of doing nothing: Which is exactly what you seem to want us to do based on your past postings.

Doing nothing is exactly what has got your uncoperative government in the predicament it's in....so, doing nothing, that's off the table.

If you and your people truly want to be rid of The Great Satan (which is purely a figment of your imaginations, fueled by your political and religous Leadership essentially brainwashing your populace starting at age 0), then you only have to go and take care of the crazies living amongst yourselves that only want religous, political, and gender oppression.

But, you all have chosen the opposite route.

What does that say about you all over there?????

Chuck

I agree that I value my countrymen over yours. But that's the most simple reason why nobody likes a foreign army ruling over them. And that's the reason America is failing in Afghanistan.

 

[Lemon law]

Chucky2 at least asks, "How are we going to deliver aid to the Afghani's when the Taliban come and either consume those resources, and/or destroy them, and/or punish the people in these locales for "cooperating" with the Western forces?"

Somewhat a valid question if it were not a circular argument. First we have to have a Washington government that even puts it to the test. We have spent more in Iraq every two weeks than we have spent in Afghan aid in years.

Like I said before, even if we have to start in Kabul and build outward, we need to have that starting example, as it is, the people in Afghanistan are screwed, if they aid the Taliban, Nato kills them, if they side with Nato, the Taliban kills them, if they have the chutzpah to think their courts should function, corrupt war lords will kill them. Oh what a wonderful world that must be.

Before we can put any of my ideas to the test, we have to make even a cursorily effort that we have yet to make. Missing in action thus far are any generals who should have told congress but did not, this is what we must do to win. Instead we have pea brains generals who promise to fill body bags with dead Taliban and more of that Vietnam can do spirit.

I still remember that palehorse post, how good he felt after he made the first and last visit to some Afghan village in a year, without the wit to ask what will happen to any Nato supporters before palehorse comes back a whole year later?

 

[Whitecloak]

lol. tgb seems to have forgotten the genocide in east bengal which the pakistani govt/army instigated. which led to the indian forces kicking their butt and the formation of bangladesh as an independent country.

i would trust nato before i trusted the beloved patriot army.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: sciwizam

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
And I think that's the reason why most people here despise Americans. Because they only care for themselves.

News Flash: People look after themselves, everywhere.

I bet most people on this forum would accept $500 in exchange for some random person killed in Afghanistan if there was no guilt involved.

:roll:

When can you send my check? Or better yet, setup a remote sniping pod, and I'll do the killing myself from here.

News Flash: People in individualistic egotistical societies such as in the U.S. look after themselves, all the time.

 

[The Green Bean]

Apparently there is a riot-like situation developing in my city (Karachi). The pakhtuns are on a killing spree and the rangers are rushing to the scene. I've only heard. Ambulances, firing. Such a backlash was inevitable but we'll have to remain calm and be patient.

edit: 10 dead. 14 vehicles burnt.

 

[chucky2]

3 milllion + 10 now....that evil USA is just racking up the body count. I hate that we just k1lled 10 people in your city....

...oh wait....

Chuck

 

[jpeyton]

Danger of "collapse"?

Holy overreaction Batman.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Apparently there is a riot-like situation developing in my city (Karachi). The pakhtuns are on a killing spree and the rangers are rushing to the scene. I've only heard. Ambulances, firing. Such a backlash was inevitable but we'll have to remain calm and be patient.

edit: 10 dead. 14 vehicles burnt.

sigh

Hang in there and stay safe!

 

[nullzero]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Apparently there is a riot-like situation developing in my city (Karachi). The pakhtuns are on a killing spree and the rangers are rushing to the scene. I've only heard. Ambulances, firing. Such a backlash was inevitable but we'll have to remain calm and be patient.

edit: 10 dead. 14 vehicles burnt.

Keep us informed on how it is going, be safe.

 

[The Green Bean]

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/co...ross-north-karachi--10

It's happening a about one mile away from where I am. Hopefully it will cool down today. Apparently it has nothing to do with the Taliban. Why can't we have one year of peace!?

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/co...ross-north-karachi--10

It's happening a about one mile away from where I am. Hopefully it will cool down today. Apparently it has nothing to do with the Taliban. Why can't we have one year of peace!?

LMAO, the picture in that link really makes Karachi look like a mud hut village.

On a side note google map has a good quality imagery of the city.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/co...ross-north-karachi--10

It's happening a about one mile away from where I am. Hopefully it will cool down today. Apparently it has nothing to do with the Taliban. Why can't we have one year of peace!?

I hope for the day you can have many, many years of peace. One day the human race will understand that hate and violence (no matter how justified) is pure evil and serves no purpose.

In the US we don't have the engrained genrational hatreds that have developed in the older civilizations of the middle east, but we are also guilty in finding things for which to develop hatred (govt in general, races and classes, dems, repubs, taxes, welfare, individual politicians and organizations ect.., ect...). It's almost as if the human machine needs something to hate, something to rally against.

 

[dphantom]

Pakistan military reports appear to be exaggerated.

Link

This reporting is more in line with what has actually occurred in past operations. Very little is actually accomplished besides destroying some villages. The Pakistan military makes a show, more often than not using Frontier Corps troops and then declasres victory and leaves.

Meanwhile, the Taliban never really left and take control again when teh Pakistan troops leave.