NOS -- I saw somewhere that the P-4 actually requires its own seperate power connector input from the power supply on its supporting mobos.
Tell me it isn't true that buyers of P-4's have to go out and replace their CASES too??? Or anyways, their power supplies, even if they have say a nice clean beefy 400W job like my Antec??
Tell me that isn't true. Please?
Tell me it isn't true that buyers of P-4's have to go out and replace their CASES too??? Or anyways, their power supplies, even if they have say a nice clean beefy 400W job like my Antec??
Tell me that isn't true. Please?
As Toms Hardware pointed out:
Let's summarize the latest findings:
Pentium 4 scores very badly in MPEG4 encoding benchmarks once the IEEE high quality iDCT is used.
Pentium 4 runs current office applications slower than Pentium 3 and much slower than AMD's Athlon, as proven in our Sysmark 2000 benchmark results from Monday.
Pentium 4 scores worse than Athlon in Unreal Tournament.
Pentium 4 is a very bad solution for compilations with gcc 2.95.2 under Linux.
Pentium 4 scores very badly in 3D Studio Max , proving a sub-par FPU.
Pentium 4 gets slightly beaten by Athlon in the 3D game MDK2.
Pentium 4 is badly losing out against Pentium 3 as well as Athlon in clock-for-clock comparisons.
Pentium 4 is currently the most expensive x86-system solution available.
BUT Pentium 4 is really good at Quake 3 Arena! Honestly!
Please post some screenshots of Unreal Tournament benchmarking at 132 fps. Nothing on the net gets even close to that so I'd appreciate it if I could see this for myself. The P4's horrid FPU structure can't possibly do it in my opinion.
Let's summarize the latest findings:
Pentium 4 scores very badly in MPEG4 encoding benchmarks once the IEEE high quality iDCT is used.
Pentium 4 runs current office applications slower than Pentium 3 and much slower than AMD's Athlon, as proven in our Sysmark 2000 benchmark results from Monday.
Pentium 4 scores worse than Athlon in Unreal Tournament.
Pentium 4 is a very bad solution for compilations with gcc 2.95.2 under Linux.
Pentium 4 scores very badly in 3D Studio Max , proving a sub-par FPU.
Pentium 4 gets slightly beaten by Athlon in the 3D game MDK2.
Pentium 4 is badly losing out against Pentium 3 as well as Athlon in clock-for-clock comparisons.
Pentium 4 is currently the most expensive x86-system solution available.
BUT Pentium 4 is really good at Quake 3 Arena! Honestly!
Please post some screenshots of Unreal Tournament benchmarking at 132 fps. Nothing on the net gets even close to that so I'd appreciate it if I could see this for myself. The P4's horrid FPU structure can't possibly do it in my opinion.
dougjnn,
Yes, you need the specified case and ps.
"A new chip requires a new?Case & Power Supply?
Along with the Pentium 4 Intel is introducing support and a need for the new ATX 2.03 specification. This specification basically makes room for the mounting holes for the Pentium 4?s heatsink retention mechanism in the case. This unfortunately means that current cases, without modifying the motherboard tray, won?t work with the Pentium 4 with its heatsink attached. If you?ve really got a lot of money invested in your case you can try and make your own mounting holes by lining up your motherboard and making the appropriate marks to drill through on the tray.
The next big change is with the power supply. The ATX 2.03 spec calls for an ATX12V power supply which supports the additional power connector required by i850 boards. This additional +12V power connector allows for additional power to be supplied to the motherboard around the CPU. With CPUs increasing in clock frequency and drawing more and more power, this helps to keep things stable in an area of the motherboard where current draw is at the highest levels."
Yes, you need the specified case and ps.
"A new chip requires a new?Case & Power Supply?
Along with the Pentium 4 Intel is introducing support and a need for the new ATX 2.03 specification. This specification basically makes room for the mounting holes for the Pentium 4?s heatsink retention mechanism in the case. This unfortunately means that current cases, without modifying the motherboard tray, won?t work with the Pentium 4 with its heatsink attached. If you?ve really got a lot of money invested in your case you can try and make your own mounting holes by lining up your motherboard and making the appropriate marks to drill through on the tray.
The next big change is with the power supply. The ATX 2.03 spec calls for an ATX12V power supply which supports the additional power connector required by i850 boards. This additional +12V power connector allows for additional power to be supplied to the motherboard around the CPU. With CPUs increasing in clock frequency and drawing more and more power, this helps to keep things stable in an area of the motherboard where current draw is at the highest levels."
Anandtech's own example of less than desirable UT performance....
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1360&p=18
It's the FPU kid. Truth will set you free.
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1360&p=18
It's the FPU kid. Truth will set you free.
How do you see the performace being better? Every benchmark I've seen has the P4 losing matchups with 1.1 T-Birds or, when it wins, winning narrowly. It gets more embarrassing when the TB is OC'd to 1.4 GHz. And, while you could argue that the P4 is in its infancy, I spent 200 bucks for my 1.1 GHz T-Bird. Intel's over-hyped underachiever represents 1000 dollars I'd rather keep in my wallet. Unless paying through the nose for marginal gains is something to brag about, I'll stick with AMD, thanks. ;-)
mechBgon
Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 30,699
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Unfortunately, the P4 is also giving very poor speeds in RC5 benchmarks... in fact, it does RC5 decryption at approximately the speed of a Celeron 500. Very strange for Intel to go backwards like that... you'd think their new processor would be at least as good as their previous ones, if not better. 
Buddahbuddah --
Actually, as it happens my Antec 400W power supply is ATX 2.03 compliant. Don't know about the case (Antec 1030b).
But I ain'g getting no stinking P4 anywho.
Not until the Palominos run out of headroom, anyway. And then who knows what the .13mu Thoroughbred version will do (and whether it will be a socket A plug in or not.)?
Actually, as it happens my Antec 400W power supply is ATX 2.03 compliant. Don't know about the case (Antec 1030b).
But I ain'g getting no stinking P4 anywho.
Not until the Palominos run out of headroom, anyway. And then who knows what the .13mu Thoroughbred version will do (and whether it will be a socket A plug in or not.)?
<< Very strange for Intel to go backwards like that... >>
Intel wasn't prepared for the arrival of the Athlon. After ayear they still had nothing to fire back with and the againg P6 quit on them in the time of need.(the PIII 1133 recall)
Everybody knows MHz sells so Intel needed MHz and they needed it fast. I find it very easy to be the rumours that the P4 design was crippled to get it out the door fast. It may in time as I'm sure Intel will improve it, start to yield better preformance. The outlook is however somewhat grim, with the Hammer family on the way implementing SSE2, it might very well prove to be too little too late once Intel manages to correct the most obvious design flaws in the P4 achitechture.
Well since some MORON told me I don't know anything earlier in this thread I am probably not qualified to answer your questions but I will give it a try.
1. You can use your current case with the p4, Asus as well as MSI has made a backing plate to help with the cooler support (although I can't see where you would need this extra support the coolers that cool the p4 are lighter than the ones I used on my classic athlon Intel is again looking towards the future.)
2. You can use a regular PSU to run it as well. I am running mine with a 303 antec as I type this (quite ROCK even overclocked I might add)
3. Since I don't do rc5 cracking, M -flops, intense mathmatical calculations etc. I think the p4 is incredibly fast (for the stuff that I like to do) and one of the most STABLE SYSTEMS I HAVE EVER SEEN!!
It took only about 2 hours to put my system together yesterday and it runs perfectly full of cards no IRQ battles or anything. Not one BSOD during the entire setup process. The p4 is as easy as any other Intel system is, to configure and make stable. Not to mention this is a FIRST REVISION product that is every bit as STABLE as the other Intel setups I have had that were much more mature
I know that you guys will tell me that it doesn't make any sense to upgrade to the p4 right now but it really doesn't make any sense to upgrade to AMD either since I am sure that they will change their platform soon as well (about 4 times or so in the last year I think??) and for what I paid the p4 was a good move I can stay with what I have currently for a long long time.
1. You can use your current case with the p4, Asus as well as MSI has made a backing plate to help with the cooler support (although I can't see where you would need this extra support the coolers that cool the p4 are lighter than the ones I used on my classic athlon Intel is again looking towards the future.)
2. You can use a regular PSU to run it as well. I am running mine with a 303 antec as I type this (quite ROCK even overclocked I might add
)3. Since I don't do rc5 cracking, M -flops, intense mathmatical calculations etc. I think the p4 is incredibly fast (for the stuff that I like to do) and one of the most STABLE SYSTEMS I HAVE EVER SEEN!!
It took only about 2 hours to put my system together yesterday and it runs perfectly full of cards no IRQ battles or anything. Not one BSOD during the entire setup process. The p4 is as easy as any other Intel system is, to configure and make stable. Not to mention this is a FIRST REVISION product that is every bit as STABLE as the other Intel setups I have had that were much more mature
I know that you guys will tell me that it doesn't make any sense to upgrade to the p4 right now but it really doesn't make any sense to upgrade to AMD either since I am sure that they will change their platform soon as well (about 4 times or so in the last year I think??) and for what I paid the p4 was a good move I can stay with what I have currently for a long long time.
<< I know that you guys will tell me that it doesn't make any sense to upgrade to the p4 right now but it really doesn't make any sense to upgrade to AMD either since I am sure that they will change their platform soon as well >>
In case you missed my point the first time, if both choices are equal in terms of lack of future upgradablility, choose the most cost effective of them. That would be AMD
Yeah, I'm with you Zephyr.
But as well, they aren't equal in term of upgradeability. There's at least one worthwhile upgrade available now if you buy a KT133A TBird set up now -- the high end of the Palomino line. A nice end of year upgrade, or a bit sooner, depending upon price considerations.
Whereas we know that second half P4's will sport more pins = need a new mobo.
(Is that when Intel is planning to introduce a less crippled version of the P4?)
But as well, they aren't equal in term of upgradeability. There's at least one worthwhile upgrade available now if you buy a KT133A TBird set up now -- the high end of the Palomino line. A nice end of year upgrade, or a bit sooner, depending upon price considerations.
Whereas we know that second half P4's will sport more pins = need a new mobo.
(Is that when Intel is planning to introduce a less crippled version of the P4?)
dougjnn no it isn't true the connector is there but they run fine without it. Its there for the future speeds that will require the extra juice. My system and frustrate'd are proof of that they both run rock stable at 1.7 GHZ without anything more than a 300w Antec powering it. And as far as the case only if you buy a Intel motherboard does it require either some case modding or a new case. Asus and other MB OEM's include all necessary hardware for installing in a Standard ATX case.
Zephyr
<< In case you missed my point the first time, if both choices are equal in terms of lack of future upgradablility, choose the most cost effective of them. That would be AMD >>
The point you keep seeming to miss is that it didn't cost us as much as even building a 1 GHZ Athlon we got one hell of a deal and sold are P-3 setups for more than the cost of the P-4 we looked at the deals and The P-4 was the BEST FOR US !!!!!
dougjnn
You just don't get it ! Intel is going to release a upgraded P-4 but they are also going to keep making speed upgrades for the current platform for some time after that DAAAAAAAA Besides being a Intel Product there are plenty of people that will take the stuff off me when I'm ready to upgrade for near what I paid for it we all know Intel has a much better record of keeping upgrade paths open then AMD that is for sure..
Buddabudda you are such a child and have these children following you !!!!! Anyone can pull selective statements off 4 different reviews and end up with making the review twisted in favor of one or the other.
You guy's are digging real deep and being real careless all you statement are not well research or supported . I know you guy's can do better than this !!
Zephyr
<< In case you missed my point the first time, if both choices are equal in terms of lack of future upgradablility, choose the most cost effective of them. That would be AMD >>
The point you keep seeming to miss is that it didn't cost us as much as even building a 1 GHZ Athlon we got one hell of a deal and sold are P-3 setups for more than the cost of the P-4 we looked at the deals and The P-4 was the BEST FOR US !!!!!
dougjnn
You just don't get it ! Intel is going to release a upgraded P-4 but they are also going to keep making speed upgrades for the current platform for some time after that DAAAAAAAA Besides being a Intel Product there are plenty of people that will take the stuff off me when I'm ready to upgrade for near what I paid for it
we all know Intel has a much better record of keeping upgrade paths open then AMD that is for sure.. Buddabudda you are such a child and have these children following you !!!!! Anyone can pull selective statements off 4 different reviews and end up with making the review twisted in favor of one or the other.
You guy's are digging real deep and being real careless all you statement are not well research or supported . I know you guy's can do better than this !!
Intel is coming out with an upgraded P4???...where did you hear that??...I feel sorry for the people who bought the P4 now...
<< The point you keep seeming to miss is that it didn't cost us as much as even building a 1 GHZ Athlon we got one hell of a deal and sold are P-3 setups for more than the cost of the P-4 we looked at the deals and The P-4 was the BEST FOR US !!!!! >>
... yeah that's a real good objective basis for comparing the products. By using this as an argument you basically admit that you are touting the P4 on false grounds, since nobody else can expect to get it for cheap (I mean it is limited how many out there will buy P4' then get rid of them cheap later when they realize the Tbird is faster, though I'm sure there must be some *LOL*)
I'm a child with children following me...er, ok.
Selective points about different reviews? Hell, EVERY review. You once said you got 132 fps in UT. I say it's impossible. The facts are the P4 has a 20 lane super highway of a memory bus, that's located smack dab in the middle of the Nevada desert. A big pipe, and nothing to fill it. It has an inferior FPU which means horrid UT results. Show me this 132 fps, I've got to see it. Really I do.
Selective points about different reviews? Hell, EVERY review. You once said you got 132 fps in UT. I say it's impossible. The facts are the P4 has a 20 lane super highway of a memory bus, that's located smack dab in the middle of the Nevada desert. A big pipe, and nothing to fill it. It has an inferior FPU which means horrid UT results. Show me this 132 fps, I've got to see it. Really I do.
mechBgon
Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 30,699
- 1
- 0
>>The point you keep seeming to miss is that it didn't cost us as much as even building a 1 GHZ Athlon we got one hell of a deal and sold are P-3 setups for more than the cost of the P-4 we looked at the deals and The P-4 was the BEST FOR US !!!!! <<
If you are telling us that P4's are better per dollar, you will need to factor in what we will be paying for it, not the unusual price you apparently got. Here is the current list from Pricewatch (edit: these are motherboard/CPU combos):
$988 - with cpu + fan Pentium 4 1.5GHz
$793 - with cpu + fan Pentium 4 1.4GHz
$389 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 1GHz
$343 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 933
$260 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 866
$249 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 800
$222 with cpu + fan Pentium III 750
$223 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 733
$193 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 667MHz
$188 with cpu + fan Pentium III 650
$181 with cpu + fan Pentium III 600MHz
$190 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 600EB
$190 with cpu + fan Pentium III 550MHz
$195 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 500MHz
$163 with cpu + fan Pentium III 450MHz
$239 - with cpu + fan Dual Pentium III
$239 - with cpu + fan Dual Pentium
$137 - with cpu + fan Celeron 633
$137 - with cpu + fan Celeron 600
$147 with cpu + fan Celeron 566
$129 - with cpu + fan Celeron 533
$119 - with cpu + fan Celeron 500
$136 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird SLOT A
$292 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird 1.1GHz SOCKET A
$245 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird 1GHz SOCKET A
$350 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird 1.2GHz SOCKET A
There is a very large $638 difference in price there between the prices of a P4 1.5GHz and a Thunderbird 1.2GHz, as you can see. Saying that the P4 outperforms the Thunderbird overall, even on a cost-no-object basis, is debatable, depending upon what benchmarks one looks at. Saying that the P4 is a better value on a price-versus-performance basis is pretty hard to justify, at least by using facts.
(Just my $638 worth...)
If you are telling us that P4's are better per dollar, you will need to factor in what we will be paying for it, not the unusual price you apparently got. Here is the current list from Pricewatch (edit: these are motherboard/CPU combos):
$988 - with cpu + fan Pentium 4 1.5GHz
$793 - with cpu + fan Pentium 4 1.4GHz
$389 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 1GHz
$343 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 933
$260 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 866
$249 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 800
$222 with cpu + fan Pentium III 750
$223 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 733
$193 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 667MHz
$188 with cpu + fan Pentium III 650
$181 with cpu + fan Pentium III 600MHz
$190 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 600EB
$190 with cpu + fan Pentium III 550MHz
$195 - with cpu + fan Pentium III 500MHz
$163 with cpu + fan Pentium III 450MHz
$239 - with cpu + fan Dual Pentium III
$239 - with cpu + fan Dual Pentium
$137 - with cpu + fan Celeron 633
$137 - with cpu + fan Celeron 600
$147 with cpu + fan Celeron 566
$129 - with cpu + fan Celeron 533
$119 - with cpu + fan Celeron 500
$136 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird SLOT A
$292 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird 1.1GHz SOCKET A
$245 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird 1GHz SOCKET A
$350 - with cpu + fan Thunderbird 1.2GHz SOCKET A
There is a very large $638 difference in price there between the prices of a P4 1.5GHz and a Thunderbird 1.2GHz, as you can see. Saying that the P4 outperforms the Thunderbird overall, even on a cost-no-object basis, is debatable, depending upon what benchmarks one looks at. Saying that the P4 is a better value on a price-versus-performance basis is pretty hard to justify, at least by using facts.
(Just my $638 worth...
)mechBgon
I don't think that we ever said that price/performances ratio was better. The point that you all are missing is that NOS and myself will pay a little more for Intel because the entire SYSTEM is better. Intel supports their products better than AMD in our eyes. The engineering that went into the p4 is a good example when AMD made the jump to the athlon there were all sorts of compatibility problems with ps, ram, cooling etc. with the p4 Intel addressed all of these issues when engineering it they looked at the ps problem and changed it a bit so that you only could use powersupplies that were intended to be used with it and capable of supplying the current necessary, the ram issue is taken care of as well with rdram, the cooling issues are taken care of as well (all though I don't think there are any or were any $9 coolers seem to work great even for overclocking). The entire SYSTEM that Intel has developed is excellent all of the extras have been thought of by Intel (motherboards excluded ASUS did one hell of a job on the p4t) not 3rd party manufacturers. This is what allows the 1st revision p4 to run flawless without the AMDBSODS that the classic athlon was so famous for. See when the classic athlon came out it was supposed to be cheaper but by the time you bought all of the necessary ram, ps, cooler etc. you ended up spending more in the long run than you would have to buy Intel up front. I know all of you will tell me I got mine to run with a 6 watt 15 year old ps and some generic ram that I found in the middle of the road ya di ya di ya. Well NOS and I didn't get ours to run with even the BEST parts.
I don't think that we ever said that price/performances ratio was better. The point that you all are missing is that NOS and myself will pay a little more for Intel because the entire SYSTEM is better. Intel supports their products better than AMD in our eyes. The engineering that went into the p4 is a good example when AMD made the jump to the athlon there were all sorts of compatibility problems with ps, ram, cooling etc. with the p4 Intel addressed all of these issues when engineering it they looked at the ps problem and changed it a bit so that you only could use powersupplies that were intended to be used with it and capable of supplying the current necessary, the ram issue is taken care of as well with rdram, the cooling issues are taken care of as well (all though I don't think there are any or were any $9 coolers seem to work great even for overclocking). The entire SYSTEM that Intel has developed is excellent all of the extras have been thought of by Intel (motherboards excluded ASUS did one hell of a job on the p4t) not 3rd party manufacturers. This is what allows the 1st revision p4 to run flawless without the AMDBSODS that the classic athlon was so famous for. See when the classic athlon came out it was supposed to be cheaper but by the time you bought all of the necessary ram, ps, cooler etc. you ended up spending more in the long run than you would have to buy Intel up front. I know all of you will tell me I got mine to run with a 6 watt 15 year old ps and some generic ram that I found in the middle of the road ya di ya di ya. Well NOS and I didn't get ours to run with even the BEST parts.
<< ...a little more... >>
Oh what self denial .. it's >$600 more for cryin out loud. If you got it for cheap is hardly an argument, since you recommend this to others you have to work from a list price point of view!
mechBgon first off we are Intel users so were more intelligent than the average Joe who bases his decision on Price it seems to be all most of you AMD Zealots can rant about.
Now what I really want to know is where the hell did you get those ignorant prices from the P-4 is currently quoted at 1.5GHZ $655 and 1.4GHZ $489. Why must you AMD Zealots use misinformation to discuss a simple point.
The Average AMD buyer Talking
<< guess what Virgil I just bought a chevette because it costs less than a Corvette and will get the same job done daaabbaaabbaaaaddddaaaaaaaaaaaa >>
Now what I really want to know is where the hell did you get those ignorant prices from the P-4 is currently quoted at 1.5GHZ $655 and 1.4GHZ $489. Why must you AMD Zealots use misinformation to discuss a simple point.
The Average AMD buyer Talking
<< guess what Virgil I just bought a chevette because it costs less than a Corvette and will get the same job done daaabbaaabbaaaaddddaaaaaaaaaaaa >>
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