Organized Labor is good for everyone

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redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,463
8
81
How about the rational, common sensical citizens who work regular private corp jobs and realize that math that says growing numbers of public employees continuing to retire with guaranteed pensions until the day they die and the failing means of those union bound public agencies to pay those underfunded pensions is.....well......batsh!t crazy??

;)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,083
5,611
126
I think that Unions are generally beneficial for all, but I think the current/traditional Union model no longer works well. I don't know much about the German system, but their including Worker Representatives on the Boards of Corporations seems like the best idea regarding Workers Rights.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
The company moved the jobs to Mexico because it could do so profitably. It could do so profitably because of trade agreements that removed tariffs and quotas. Trade agreements passed by politicians elected by workers too stupid to vote their own self-interest. If the middle class is to survive we need unions now more than ever and we need workers to quit voting based on bullshit issues and stick to what's-in-it-for-them issues.

You make it sound like tariffs and quotes are the natural state of the world. I think it's immoral for the government to restrict my access to goods to artificially inflate the value of someone else's labor. I don't consider that a legitimate function of government.
 

Bill Wiltrack

Member
Nov 7, 2012
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Allow me to make a small but important point, especially for those of you who are not that familiure with Organized Labor; Independant, legally recognized Organized Labor agreements establish a minimum of wages and benefits. Incentives and bonuses are always appropriate and accepted.

Modern Organized Labor agreements establish a more perfect level playing field for signature parties that encourages a more competative and united workforce. It's a GREAT system that produces real wealth for all parties involved, the immediate surrounding community, and society in general.



I thank everyone for all of the support and all of the positive responses to this thread.




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halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
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Allow me to make a small but important point, especially for those of you who are not that familiure with Organized Labor; Independant, legally recognized Organized Labor agreements establish a minimum of wages and benefits. Incentives and bonuses are always appropriate and accepted.

Modern Organized Labor agreements establish a more perfect level playing field for signature parties that encourages a more competative and united workforce. It's a GREAT system that produces real wealth for all parties involved, the immediate surrounding community, and society in general.

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Exactly how does UAW two tier system establish a more level playing field?

Either way your main premise is not grounded in economics; unions cannot establish a minimum wage that's higher than actual hourly output. That is if I create $50 of value in hour, you simply cannot compel the employer to pay more than $50/hr ... in long run they will eliminate said workforce (see UAW).

Unions in practice will never achieve what you argue, simply because their only incentives are to increase ranks and wages of the rank members. By default there is no incentive to increase productivity, competitiveness or wealth of anyone aside from the union members.

The only real argument I've heard (from a Labor Lawyer roommate in grad school) was a case of monopolistic employer (ie one factory town) where the employer could use the lack of competition to pay below market wages. That and I suppose employers that benefit from free trade induced outsourcing*.

* Outsourcing creates lower prices, but some of the cost saving is retained by the employer in the form of additional profit (ie they'll only pass part of the cost saving to the consumers). Now the downside for consumers is the frictional/systematic unemployment, but the upside is the lower prices. Empirically it seems to net out as a wealth transfer from the consumers.
 
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Bill Wiltrack

Member
Nov 7, 2012
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A more level playing field is established when a country or an individual location supports and encourages Organized Labor.

When similar but seperate companies compete, innovation and quality determines the success of each indiviual company. This is a great system that encourages self worth and real value. These charactoristics are more generally found in Liberal Democracies.

Organized Labor agreements do not outstrip production or overall normal profits. That would be illogical and not in the best interest of any of the signature parties.




GREAT question. Thank you for allowing me to claeify that important point.



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Bill Wiltrack

Member
Nov 7, 2012
116
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Perhaps retro is the way to go?


You are so far behind you just may be ahead...in some strange way.


Good luck to you!



Thank you for responding.




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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
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A more level playing field is established when a country or an individual location supports and encourages Organized Labor.

When similar but seperate companies compete, innovation and quality determines the success of each indiviual company. This is a great system that encourages self worth and real value. These charactoristics are more generally found in Liberal Democracies.

Organized Labor agreements do not outstrip production or overall normal profits. That would be illogical and not in the best interest of any of the signature parties.




GREAT question. Thank you for allowing me to claeify that important point.



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What are "normal profits"? Who gets to decide what "normal profits" will be in industry?
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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If workers getting together and colluding to fix the price of labor is "good for everyone", then surely you would agree that business owners getting together and colluding to fix the price of their goods and services is also "good for everyone"?

Right?

Since labor and corporations are entirely different and have entirely disparate functions, no, he/she likely wouldn't agree, Holocaust-denier.
 

Chris A

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
1,431
1
76
In this day and age unions. Are pretty whiped out. I could hire several over qualified people for much less. I like unions though as they make my job easy because the rules are all spelled out.
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
23
81
How about the rational, common sensical citizens who work regular private corp jobs and realize that math that says growing numbers of public employees continuing to retire with guaranteed pensions until the day they die and the failing means of those union bound public agencies to pay those underfunded pensions is.....well......batsh!t crazy??

;)

I find it amusing that the stupid private sector voters will gladly vote for the benefit of public sector union's crazy benefits such as 80+% pensions that they themselves will never achieve in their lifetime.

The day I vote for Union's benefit is the day I see them picketing for us private sector non-union peeps, until then fuhgeddaboutit.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
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Allow me to make a small but important point, especially for those of you who are not that familiure with Organized Labor; Independant, legally recognized Organized Labor agreements establish a minimum of wages and benefits. Incentives and bonuses are always appropriate and accepted.

Modern Organized Labor agreements establish a more perfect level playing field for signature parties that encourages a more competative and united workforce. It's a GREAT system that produces real wealth for all parties involved, the immediate surrounding community, and society in general.
I thank everyone for all of the support and all of the positive responses to this thread.

How about the negative ones from a former member of 2 different unions? You guys are thugs, you're organized criminals, you're liars, cheats and swindlers and I hope that before to long you're being dealt with by the tender mercies of the CCPOA. Have a nice day.
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Juror No. 8

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
1,108
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Since labor and corporations are entirely different and have entirely disparate functions, no, he/she likely wouldn't agree, Holocaust-denier.

Labor is just a collection of people. Corporations are just collections of people. If price fixing and collusion is good for one collection of people (labor), why isn't it also good for another collection of people (corporations)? If fixing the price of labor is good, why isn't fixing the price of goods and services also good?

Why can't you answer the question without obfuscation?
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
China keeps the unions in check.

The problem with that argument is that the only way we can compete with China is to sink to their level.

After all, the only reason labor is going over there is cost.

The real answer is barriers to trade, but you'll hear people cry about protectionism even though a massive majority of the electorate will tell you that massive manufacturing outsourcing is high on the list for domestic issues.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Labor is just a collection of people. Corporations are just collections of people. If price fixing and collusion is good for one collection of people (labor), why isn't it also good for another collection of people (corporations)? If fixing the price of labor is good, why isn't fixing the price of goods and services also good?

Why can't you answer the question without obfuscation?

It is a disingenuous question. Negotiating for pay is not the same as colluding against the public in a monopoly-like fashion.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,452
6,878
136
I find it amusing that the stupid private sector voters will gladly vote for the benefit of public sector union's crazy benefits such as 80+% pensions that they themselves will never achieve in their lifetime.

The day I vote for Union's benefit is the day I see them picketing for us private sector non-union peeps, until then fuhgeddaboutit.

If you're a middle class wage earner, then the unions have actually BEEN picketing for you and they've also been striking on your behalf.

Union negotiated wages have been the benchmark wage that the private sector uses to pay their own non-union workers of like occupations. Think of it this way: If union wages are far better than a private sector wage of the same occupation, wouldn't all the best workers seek these union jobs and have the non-union shops wanting for talent? These non-union shops would then have to pay a wage equal to or better than the union shop to either keep the skilled workers they have or attract the good ones working at union shops. Union wages is like the incoming tide such that it lifts all boats. Likewise, getting rid of the unions will be like the outgoing tide such that it lowers all boats.

You may not realize it, but unions did in fact create the middle class, especially so after World War II.

Haven't you noticed that there is a direct correlation between how the unions have been shrinking and how the middle class is also shrinking a like amount?

Let's look at the auto industry. They're doing just fine with the majority of line jobs filled by UAW employees. The non-union auto manufacturing shops have had to pay wage/benefits packages similar to the amounts the unions negotiated for (adjusted for cost of living).

That the US auto manufacturers are doing great at the present thoroughly debunks the fairy tale about the unions destroying the auto industry when management held/holds all the decision making power as to how they make their products desireable to the driving public.

In hard times, most unions have made concessions commensurate with the times they were negotiated in as saving their jobs became their highest priority. Conflicts arose for the most part when opportunistic management teams attempted to bust unions wholesale in those difficult economic times instead of trying to save as many jobs as possible.

True, there are as many bad union bosses as there are bad management types. However, just as the auto industry here in the US have worked well with the unions, so too have numerous other US manufacturers or service providers worked well with unions whose workers they represent.
 
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