Discussion Optane Client product current and future

[cbn]

After seeing this I am interested to find out how Intel 58GB and greater Optane would do with 4TB 3D QLC dram-less SATA SSD.

However, I think the Seagate Multi-actuator 3.5" HDD would be an even more interesting match for Optane. (The major downside, of course, is if the data is not on the cache the performance drop will be higher.).

 

[nosirrahx]

Does anyone happen to know what the write buffer size is for the 32GB Optane when used as cache? The 58GB Optane when used as cache?

I haven't been able to find this info yet.

The other part I am not sure about is whether or not the block level caching shows up in the cache breakdown.

The best I can offer is the CP from a 118GB drive as cache:

https://imgur.com/w6aI9B5

https://imgur.com/NZHScUx

 

[nosirrahx]

After seeing this I am interested to find out how Intel 58GB and greater Optane would do with 4TB 3D QLC dram-less SATA SSD.

IMO you are right on the money when it comes to potentially the best use case for Optane.

A cheap QLC 2TB SATA SSD + 58GB Optane drive should be cheaper than a high end NVMe 2TB M.2 SSD and the performance should be better.

 

[Brahmzy]

380GB 905P M.2 delayed until 11/23

I just got the email from newegg.

Ah, thanks. Was wondering...

 

[nosirrahx]

After seeing this I am interested to find out how Intel 58GB and greater Optane would do with 4TB 3D QLC dram-less SATA SSD.

I just looked up some more pricing and there are a few other places where you can beat NVMe easily with Optane.

If you wanted 8TB on one drive letter you can RAID 0 4 2TB 970 EVOs for $2100 or cache a 7.68TB Micron SATA SSD against a 800P M.2 or even a 905P M.2 and be between $1700 and $1900.

 

[Dayman1225]

Presentation from Rob Crooke (Slides only)

Probably the only interesting slide.

 

[VirtualLarry]

So China's going to be pumping out cheap 3DXpoint in a year or two? Some Chinese state-owned fabs, just "happen" to gain the know-how to produce it?

Edit: N/M, mis-read.

 

[Dayman1225]

So China's going to be pumping out cheap 3DXpoint in a year or two? Some Chinese state-owned fabs, just "happen" to gain the know-how to produce it?

Reread the slide, 3DNAND in China, 3DXP in New Mexico

 

[cbn]

After seeing this I am interested to find out how Intel 58GB and greater Optane would do with 4TB 3D QLC dram-less SATA SSD.

IMO you are right on the money when it comes to potentially the best use case for Optane.

A cheap QLC 2TB SATA SSD + 58GB Optane drive should be cheaper than a high end NVMe 2TB M.2 SSD and the performance should be better.

Based on the information in this post I wonder if that could be done via double sided M.2 2280.....or maybe even single sided M.2 22110 using 16 dies per package 3D QLC and a single package of Optane with four dies?

 

[cbn]

Taking the idea of an M.2 Optane & 3D QLC NAND M.2 SSD (from the previous post) a bit further...

.....I actually wonder if Intel could even make a consumer NVDIMM-P with DRAM, Optane and 3D TLC or QLC? (With the 3D TLC or QLC seeing a small reduction in latency compared to what it would have been if NVMe PCIe).

 

[nosirrahx]

Taking the idea of an M.2 Optane & 3D QLC NAND M.2 SSD (from the previous post) a bit further...

.....I actually wonder if Intel could even make a consumer NVDIMM-P with DRAM, Optane and 3D TLC or QLC? (With the 3D TLC or QLC seeing a small reduction in latency compared to what it would have been if NVMe PCIe).

Any form of Optane + QLC AIO SSD would be a great combination of cheap NAND and fast persistent cache. Intel would also eliminate any form of platform compatibility with a solution like this. Literally anything with a matching I/O port would work.

 

[IntelUser2000]

chrisdar, a rather famous leaker is saying Optane H10 and M15. So maybe they are Carson Beach?

 

[cbn]

chrisdar, a rather famous leaker is saying Optane H10 and M15. So maybe they are Carson Beach?

Yep, that sounds very plausible with M15 designating it as the higher end (PCIe x 4) memory module compared to M10 (PCIe x2).

But H10 is new designation we haven't seen before. Maybe a new way to start labeling HHHL AIC form factor Optane?

 

[IntelUser2000]

I was thinking maybe H10 is a lower version of the M15. So segmentation for Optane Memory. And they'll keep the numbered naming scheme for SSDs. We'll see.

 

[cbn]

I was thinking maybe H10 is a lower version of the M15. So segmentation for Optane Memory. And they'll keep the numbered naming scheme for SSDs. We'll see.

Or maybe a version of the M10 not as optimized for mobile? (Thinking of your examp[e in link below as a reference point)

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...rent-and-future.2525180/page-14#post-39652272

 

[IntelUser2000]

Or maybe a version of the M10 not as optimized for mobile? (Thinking of your examp[e in link below as a reference point)

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...rent-and-future.2525180/page-14#post-39652272

Hmm, that sounds quite plausible. Kinda like how they name their chipsets. "H370" and "HM370".

Maybe the H10 replaces Optane Memory for desktops and M15 for Laptops? The higher number confused me at first, but they tend to treat mobility as a premium.

 

[cbn]

Hmm, that sounds quite plausible. Kinda like how they name their chipsets. "H370" and "HM370".

Maybe the H10 replaces Optane Memory for desktops and M15 for Laptops? The higher number confused me at first, but they tend to treat mobility as a premium.

Yep I could see H10 replacing M10 for desktops (and being sgemented by Intel) because M10 64GB is priced $15 more than 800p 58GB according to Intel Ark:

https://ark.intel.com/products/1355...Series-64GB-M-2-80mm-PCIe-3-0-20nm-3D-XPoint-

https://ark.intel.com/products/125296/Intel-Optane-SSD-800P-Series-58GB-M-2-80mm-PCIe-3-0-3D-Xpoint-

......but perhaps M15 is a whole different level of Optane memory (Carson Beach)?

And maybe later on there would be a H15 for any desktop usage that would have otherwise used M15?

 

[IntelUser2000]

....but perhaps M15 is a whole different level of Optane memory (Carson Beach)?

And maybe later on there would be a H15 for any desktop usage that would have otherwise used M15?

I'm thinking both are Carson Beach. I hope the price per GB improves, at least in the MSRP sense.

Update: Gigabyte and MSI vendor qualification pages are showing Optane M15 and H10.

Models:
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEK1F032GA
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEK1F064GA
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEK1F128GA

Interesting are the H10s,
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0101A
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0202A

For the "H10 with SSD", its saying 16/256GB and 32/512GB. Maybe this is a bundle? Being on the QVL list also suggests a less-likely possibility its a NAND SSD with Optane cache on board?

Both M15 and H10s are on the PCIe x4 interface and M key, rather than B+M for Optane Memory.

Specs for M15:
-16-128GB(Up to 64GB in M2.2242 form factor)
-Up to 2.1GB/s Read and 1GB/s Write(900MB/s for M2.2242) in Sequential

Also Optane SSD 815P is coming. Available in same capacities as 800P. Same 2.1GB/s Read and 1GB/s Write as M15.

 

[cbn]

I'm thinking both are Carson Beach. I hope the price per GB improves, at least in the MSRP sense.

Update: Gigabyte and MSI vendor qualification page are showing Optane M15 and H10.

Models:
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEK1F032GA
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEK1F064GA
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEK1F128GA

Interesting are the H10s,
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0101
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0202

For the "H10 with SSD", its saying 16/256GB and 32/512GB. Maybe this is a bundle? Being on the QVL list also suggests a lesser-likely possibility its a NAND SSD with Optane cache on board?

Both M15 and H10s are on the PCIe x4 interface and M key, rather than B+M for Optane Memory.

Specs for M15:
-16-128GB(Up to 64GB in M2.2242 form factor)
-Up to 2.1GB/s Read and 1GB/s Write(900MB/s for M2.2242) in Sequential

Also Optane SSD 815P is coming. Available in same capacities as 800P. Same 2.1GB/s Read and 1GB/s Write as M15.

Wow! Awesome Info!

But I still wonder if H10 is based off PCIe x 2 Optane because of the 16GB capacity (16GB only reads at 900 MB/s).....and that the reason PCIe x 4 is being used is because it is a AIO (ie, Optane + NAND combination) SSD using either SATA or NVMe for the NAND part of the SSD.

EDIT: This QVL list from Gigabyte H310M-D2VX-SI shows M15 (PCIe 3.0 x4) with 16GB capacity. This is very puzzling because 16GB can't even saturate PCIe 3.0 x2.

 

[IntelUser2000]

I keep thinking about the names,
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0101A
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0202A

I can't think of what HBR stands for. It says its an SSD, but their SSDs start with SSD in the product name. It could also be a whole new category.

Also part numbers for the 16 and 32GB M15s.
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEI1F016GA
Optane Memory M15 series MEMPEI1F032GA

They are all PCIe x4.

 

[cbn]

I keep thinking about the names,
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0101A
Optane Memory H10 With SSD HBRPEKNX0202A

I can't think of what HBR stands for. It says its an SSD, but their SSDs start with SSD in the product name. It could also be a whole new category.

Good of you spotting HBR.

HBR = Hybrid

(Well, that is my guess anyway)

 

[IntelUser2000]

Good of you spotting HBR.

HBR = Hybrid

Huh. That sounds like a good of a guess as any. For some reason HBR kept sounding like High Bandwidth Requirement, but yea Hybrid makes much more sense.

So we might see a hybrid Optane/NAND drive much sooner than expected.

 

[cbn]

So far no H10 as standalone memory.

Could this be a hybrid controller? One that works both with Optane and NAND?

Micron is developing a controller that works with both 3DXpoint and NAND (as I mentioned earlier in this thread)....but I don't know if works with 3DXpoint and NAND at the same time.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Could this be a hybrid controller? One that works both with Optane and NAND?

Are you saying the controller can work with Optane-only or NAND-only by simply switching out the memory chips? It'll be sub-optimal compared to already existing standalone controllers.

Who knows? I'm very on board with hybrid Optane as cache NAND drive.

But I still wonder if H10 is based off PCIe x 2 Optane because of the 16GB capacity (16GB only reads at 900 MB/s)

The 64GB M2.2242 has a bandwidth of 2.1GB/s Read and 900MB/s write. That's 50% increase over the M10. Going to the 2280 version can result in the write bandwidth going up to 1GB/s, but this could easily be due to thermal requirements.

Also, there's always an overhead with protocols, whether SATA or PCI Express. You can't really get 2GB/s out of a x2 link, nor a 600MB/s bandwidth out of SATA3. Actual throughput is 10-15% lower. So just by switching to an x4 link will boost your sequentials, if it was saturating the x2 link.

 

[cbn]

\
But I still wonder if H10 is based off PCIe x 2 Optane because of the 16GB capacity (16GB only reads at 900 MB/s)

The 64GB M2.2242 has a bandwidth of 2.1GB/s Read and 900MB/s write. That's 50% increase over the M10. Going to the 2280 version can result in the write bandwidth going up to 1GB/s, but this could easily be due to thermal requirements.

Also, there's always an overhead with protocols, whether SATA or PCI Express. You can't really get 2GB/s out of a x2 link, nor a 600MB/s bandwidth out of SATA3. Actual throughput is 10-15% lower. So just by switching to an x4 link will boost your sequentials, if it was saturating the x2 link.

But 16GB only needs 900 MB/s......so PCIe 3.0 x 2 is plenty. Furthermore, PCIe 3.0 x 4 increases latency compared to PCIe 3.0 x2.

So why PCIe 3.0 x 4 16GB M15 and 16GB H10....particularly the 16GB M15 which is standalone?

Is Intel is working on some kind of new software that boosts Sequential by adding the Optane Sequential to the NAND or HDD Sequential? (Example: Nosirrahx was mentioning in another thread about having a type of RAID that would read a file on cache and on the backing store from opposite directions and then finish when they meet in the middle). This kind of idea would mesh with what you were thinking about which is HBR = High Bandwidth Requirement.