Opinion: Jordan Peterson has always been a crank

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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Indeed I did and intentionally. I don’t consciously intend treat people to the kind of language I used on you in that post but I wanted you to feel what it is like to be on the receiving end of it. My intention was to treat you with the same kind of verbal nastiness with which you addressed me. I tried to show you my version of what I think is your style.
What on earth are you talking about?

The OP was not aimed at you in the slightest, and yet here's your opening response to the OP:

I was told by other people that Jordan Peterson is a nut job so I won't waste a second of my time on him. And I can easily justify that decision because you all know I'm an imbecile.

That's the sort of thing I mean when I say you're the one being triggered here.

Allegedly moronic things. There you go assuming your personal opinion as factual.

See topic title.

Would it be fair to say that a person raised in a religious faith and ceases to believe in the god of that faith for lack of proof that god exists is an Atheist? And if subsequently the person in studying neuroscience, psychological states, mystical experiences, myth, totalitarianism etc and experiences a growing suspicion that something in his or her thinking is amiss, undertakes to find out what it is and begins to see that what he or she thought god was isn’t known by the scientific method used by modern western people but by a far more sophisticated science and far more psychological science that gives birth to a religious experience and a richer more inwardly fulfilling life that his personal attitude as an Atheist precluded him or her from having, and as a consequence of this growth in understanding ceases to believe that there is a proof of god of another kind, could that person then say he used to be an Atheist?
Are you asking me a question or are you telling me your personal experience on this topic? It seems to be the latter but it has no bearing whatsoever in my critique of JP's video.

You see, I used to be an Atheist too, but I no longer am and when I hear your spite and scorn toward unscientific believers I know exactly what you are saying
My criticism was not aimed at "unscientific believers", it was aimed at JP. I think a large problem here is that you're taking criticisms of JP to be criticisms of you personally.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Why do you keep sucking Peterson off?

I mean based on your slight diversion from your usual narrative I know I hit a nerve.

Perhaps you should think about that.
I haven’t really expressed much on what I see in Peterson. He does not post here so I can’t interact with him. I got involved with Peterson from posts about him here so I took a look and saw something completely different than the claims I was reading. What interests me is the mental state of the people who post here and it appeared to me that people were operating under some sort of hypnotic spell, that with regard to Peterson and what I saw him sating and the claims of others that many here were manifesting some sort of insanity.

What I see is opinion taken as fact and extreme rage. That’s a place people go to for a self administered brain chemical drug fix. Many people do harmful things because they don’t see what they are doing, and I know a lot about rage. Things I have learned about myself that make my life better really pissed me off during lesson time.

I have experienced the most violent rage against myself beyond what I could possibly ever imagined long ago. I can handle a few pin pricks by comparison. There is a saying, we wary of those you help. Naturally, when I say help it just means help in my opinion. I can only try to do what my best guess of what help is with an open mind.
 
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Would it be fair to say that a person raised in a religious faith and ceases to believe in the god of that faith for lack of proof that god exists is an Atheist? And if subsequently the person in studying neuroscience, psychological states, mystical experiences, myth, totalitarianism etc and experiences a growing suspicion that something in his or her thinking is amiss, undertakes to find out what it is and begins to see that what he or she thought god was isn’t known by the scientific method used by modern western people but by a far more sophisticated science and far more psychological science that gives birth to a religious experience and a richer more inwardly fulfilling life that his personal attitude as an Atheist precluded him or her from having, and as a consequence of this growth in understanding ceases to believe that there is a proof of god of another kind, could that person then say he used to be an Atheist?

You see, I used to be an Atheist too, but I no longer am and when I hear your spite and scorn toward unscientific believers I know exactly what you are saying
+1

My simplest explanation for there not being any direct scientific evidence of God is that since He is all powerful and all knowing, it would be a simple thing for him to make Himself invisible to the scientific tools of puny humans. Kind of like a process trying to butt against the confines of a hypervisor, failing to break through and concluding with confidence that it's not running in a hypervisor. Well, there ARE hackers out there who can break out of a hypervisor or detect being in one. Same thing with theists. Some of them assume there IS a God because of their upbringing. Others reach that conclusion after extensive study of religious and spiritual texts. Trying to explain years of their research in a paragraph or two to someone not willing to even entertain the possibility of changing their beliefs is like explaining quantum mechanics to someone on the street and expecting them to go, "Woah! I see the Universe differently now!". Not gonna happen. Believing in a higher power is not something that can be taught. You have to go on that journey alone and with a sincere intention to find the truth.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,873
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The basic facts are that 1. Peterson is a hack and 2. He has always used these linguistic illogical acrobatics to drive home a point that is really not manifested in real life and only really works towards putting coin in his purse.

Your sin moonie, is the same as Peterson. You got high on your own supply.

First rule of slinging drugs. Dont get high on your own supply.
This is of course a childish assertion and the product of your imagination. I don't use drugs, entered a transformative state of consciousness drug free. Try not to allow you ego butt and some seemingly juvenile competitive spirit make a fool of you. You may find support for others in your claim but one of us knows the actual truth and it isn't you.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,873
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Yes JP got famous by claiming that law compels speech, but it doesn't compel speech. It was just his lack of critical thinking and the tendency of the defective conservative brain to always make themselves the victim.

"I don't want to call that person xi and you can't make me!" You are right we can't make you but you can always use their name in place of their preferred pronouns. What you CANNOT do is continue calling them "he" when they have repeatedly asked you not to. You'd think this would be self evident, Jordan.
If something is self evident do you think it needs explaining. Isn't the claim of self evidency uttered with others are ignoring that belief. We had a revolutionary war over this. The victors are now sending bombs with my tax dollar to bomb children in Gaza. I don't care whom you call what as long as you address me when using the third person as His Royal Highness and I want that written into law that any violators will lose their heads. And you are always entitled to stop the planet and get off if you don't like it.

Imagine, remember lectures I went to in college that required auditoriums that held hundreds of people, a very large university, and being the dunce that I am I have to check the spelling of most of the names of the people I want to address individually in posting here. I forget people's names easily. I would not really like to be put in a position of learning not only the names but the preferred pronouns of hundreds of students on pain of losing tenure. Gurd up your loins, Miss, I'm thinking of calling you Sweet Cheeks.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I didn't rush to defend Matt, where did you get that from? I brought up the debate as an example of Jordan's rhetorical approach. The fact that Matt is able to handle himself with someone who repeatedly interrupts him mid-thought and strawman's his arguments before he's even had a chance to finish a sentence is a credit to Matt. But that doesn't make Jordan's rhetoric sound.
OK. fair enough. The sudden intake of the rebuff of Peterson's approach struck me as being rushed and as you were critical of Peterson that seems to automatically go down as supporting the other person. But I can back off that point of view. I simply disagree with yours assertion that what I watched with my own eyes was anything other than excessive zeal that points to the passion with which Peterson is willing to expend in trying to clarify a point he thinks the other person is missing. That is why there is a debate, two different views seeking resolution. It doesn't make his rhetoric unsound either. You saw what you saw. I did not see what you say. I saw someone whose eagerness to make a point caused him to talk out of turn.
Your response is to say that we saw different things because you actually think about what is being said whereas I look for why one of them is wrong like a programmed bigot, which is what a radical leftist really is. But that's just, like, your opinion man, so it's not an attack, unlike when I posit a different theory about you. Then it is an attack!
Do you see any truth in that or not. And why are you saying that I take what you say as an attack. You are either right or being self defensive if not or a mix of each as far as I can see.
Moonbeam: "Unlike me, you don't think about what is being said, you just look for someone being wrong because you're a radical leftist, I mean a programmed bigot!"
Pontius: "You like Jordan Peterson because he makes you feel good about yourself."
Moonbeam: "WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING ME?!?"
I enjoy listening to Peterson debate people. That is me being me. I don't like Peterson because he makes me feel good. I feel great for a person who hates himself. I am curious and love to satisfy my curiosity. I have the same experience talking to you. You are a pleasure to talk to.
But we've been around this gravity well already, so no need to dip in again. You are what you are.
Up to you. If I were only who I really am you would be talking to God. Unfortunately you get the jerk you see.

There is a Sufi saying: A person is three things, he thinks he is, what others think he is, and what he really is.

In my opinion that debate we watched was about who we really are. Is Earth trying to become Heaven or is Heaven trying to become Earth. I have experienced a state of awareness in which such distinctions vanish and it seemed real to me.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,873
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+1

My simplest explanation for there not being any direct scientific evidence of God is that since He is all powerful and all knowing, it would be a simple thing for him to make Himself invisible to the scientific tools of puny humans. Kind of like a process trying to butt against the confines of a hypervisor, failing to break through and concluding with confidence that it's not running in a hypervisor. Well, there ARE hackers out there who can break out of a hypervisor or detect being in one. Same thing with theists. Some of them assume there IS a God because of their upbringing. Others reach that conclusion after extensive study of religious and spiritual texts. Trying to explain years of their research in a paragraph or two to someone not willing to even entertain the possibility of changing their beliefs is like explaining quantum mechanics to someone on the street and expecting them to go, "Woah! I see the Universe differently now!". Not gonna happen. Believing in a higher power is not something that can be taught. You have to go on that journey alone and with a sincere intention to find the truth.
I agree. To add to your point, in my opinion the finger pointing to such a god is not the god itself, but the finger that does the pointing, all those religious texts, myths sign posts and road maps everywhere to be found are all in the shape of what each in their experience thought best to point with. This is the story of God as an elephant approached by 4 blind men who claimed that god is a rope, a broom, a fan, and a pillar, depending on which part of the elephant they had touched or experienced.

In have heard that there exists in the East the notion there are 3 types of God conscious people, the saint for has surrendered to God's will so has no will of his own, the Master who makes his will the same as the will of God, and the Prophet who can do both and that there are seven types or stages of seekers and schools appropriate for them. The fakir who enters via mastery of the body, or someone like a Samurai, the monk whose love of God approaches the love of God for him, the yogi who stops thought and time going straight to realization, and all of the possible permutations, like monk warrior, yogi fakir, etc.

In the West there is a way perhaps better suited to non believers, psychotherapy. I believe it is fear that keeps us from knowing that what the reality might be behind the word god, fear of realization that Eastern Practices have found ways around and it is psychotherapy which is really getting to know and confronting what we fear and that what that is is the feeling we are actually worthless caused by being put down as children. But the same fear that turns people to either abandon religion or pervert it for the sake of ego will also create rationalizations against seeking psychological help. Only people who have inferiority complexes need therapy. :)
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,585
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I haven’t really expressed much on what I see in Peterson. He does not post here so I can’t interact with him. I got involved with Peterson from posts about him here so I took a look and saw something completely different than the claims I was reading. What interests me is the mental state of the people who post here and it appeared to me that people were operating under some sort of hypnotic spell, that with regard to Peterson and what I saw him sating and the claims of others that many here were manifesting some sort of insanity.

What I see is opinion taken as fact and extreme rage. That’s a place people go to for a self administered brain chemical drug fix. Many people do harmful things because they don’t see what they are doing, and I know a lot about rage. Things I have learned about myself that make my life better really pissed me off during lesson time.

I have experienced the most violent rage against myself beyond what I could possibly ever imagined long ago. I can handle a few pin pricks by comparison. There is a saying, we wary of those you help. Naturally, when I say help it just means help in my opinion. I can only try to do what my best guess of what help is with an open mind.
Three points ego zero points substance. Jesus juice is best administered through a c note to the right nostril.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,532
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If something is self evident do you think it needs explaining. Isn't the claim of self evidency uttered with others are ignoring that belief. We had a revolutionary war over this. The victors are now sending bombs with my tax dollar to bomb children in Gaza. I don't care whom you call what as long as you address me when using the third person as His Royal Highness and I want that written into law that any violators will lose their heads. And you are always entitled to stop the planet and get off if you don't like it.

Imagine, remember lectures I went to in college that required auditoriums that held hundreds of people, a very large university, and being the dunce that I am I have to check the spelling of most of the names of the people I want to address individually in posting here. I forget people's names easily. I would not really like to be put in a position of learning not only the names but the preferred pronouns of hundreds of students on pain of losing tenure. Gurd up your loins, Miss, I'm thinking of calling you Sweet Cheeks.
You would think it would be self evident that the world is round but thousands will go to their graves believing it is flat. Everything needs explaining to some people no matter how self evident it may be.

Saying it is difficult for a professor to keep track of their students is pretty sad, but it is beside the point. The clear text of the law was preventing unwanted speech, not compelling speech.
 
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Moonbeam

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Three points ego zero points substance. Jesus juice is best administered through a c note to the right nostril.
I call this kind of magicical thinking 'poof you're a dragon' It doesn't surprise that you seem quite knowledgeable about drugs.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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You would think it would be self evident that the world is round but thousands will go to their graves believing it is flat. Everything needs explaining to some people no matter how self evident it may be.

Saying it is difficult for a professor to keep track of their students is pretty sad, but it is beside the point. The clear text of the law was preventing unwanted speech, not compelling speech.
How can I have free speech if you can prevent me from speaking. Would not my speech have to endanger you physically like yelling fire in a crowded building rather than you forcing me to call you a girl, for example, when gender is stripped of its traditional moorings and becomes a matter of personal opinion?

I give you a week to confess your belief in God and if you can’t I will have your head removed.

I could give a shit what gender you personally want to identify with. I could give a shit about the culture war started over this issue. I simple do not want to be legally dragged into it.

Like racism or any other form of bigotry the only way to end it is within yourself. Truth isn’t suddenly adopting to some new big moral trend, it’s the unlearning of everything you believe. I unlearned any belief I once might have had that being a man made me better. It’s other people who surrender their self dignity to grant me that status.

I do not regard your interest or anyone else’s worry about social status as being relevant or important. To acknowledge you exist categorically, that your real identity is tied to this that sacred belief, is to feed your insanity. No thanks.

Please don’t ask me to denigrate your absolute equality with me by forcing me to treat you special. Grow a pair or cut them off but leave me out of it. I have flowers to water.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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You would think it would be self evident that the world is round but thousands will go to their graves believing it is flat. Everything needs explaining to some people no matter how self evident it may be.

Saying it is difficult for a professor to keep track of their students is pretty sad, but it is beside the point. The clear text of the law was preventing unwanted speech, not compelling speech.

Yea but how many dragons have you slain?
 
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@Moonbeam






 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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How can I have free speech if you can prevent me from speaking. Would not my speech have to endanger you physically like yelling fire in a crowded building rather than you forcing me to call you a girl, for example, when gender is stripped of its traditional moorings and becomes a matter of personal opinion?

I give you a week to confess your belief in God and if you can’t I will have your head removed.

I could give a shit what gender you personally want to identify with. I could give a shit about the culture war started over this issue. I simple do not want to be legally dragged into it.

Like racism or any other form of bigotry the only way to end it is within yourself. Truth isn’t suddenly adopting to some new big moral trend, it’s the unlearning of everything you believe. I unlearned any belief I once might have had that being a man made me better. It’s other people who surrender their self dignity to grant me that status.

I do not regard your interest or anyone else’s worry about social status as being relevant or important. To acknowledge you exist categorically, that your real identity is tied to this that sacred belief, is to feed your insanity. No thanks.

Please don’t ask me to denigrate your absolute equality with me by forcing me to treat you special. Grow a pair or cut them off but leave me out of it. I have flowers to water.
JP has no qualm with laws limiting speech. He only made a stink of this law because he believed it compelled speech, which it does not.

I'd agree with his objection if the law was compelling speech. The government should never do that. You have to understand the difference between preventing speech and compelling speech. Your first paragraph makes it seem like you still do not understand that important distinction, because if you did, you would never compare fire in a crowded theater with forcing you to call someone a girl. The law does not force him to call someone a girl. The law prevents him from calling someone a girl (or boy or whatever) if they have asked him to stop doing so. This would be an unreasonable law if it applied to everyone, everywhere, but the law he is taking issue with only applies to people in positions of power. There is a lot of power invested in making sure people like you continue to fight for them against your own best interests and the interests of all subordinates.
 

Pontius Dilate

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Mar 28, 2008
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Do you see any truth in that or not. And why are you saying that I take what you say as an attack.
No, I don't see any truth in your statement that I don't think about what is being said, nor that I am a radical leftist or a programmed bigot. Listening to what is being said and observing Jordan's shitty debate tactics are separate things, and I can do both of them. If Jordan had just let him speak and complete his thoughts most of the things he interrupted about would have been satisfactorily explained, regardless of whether he agreed with Matt nor not. You see Jordan being excited and speeding ahead of Matt. I see Jordan doing this deliberately as a rhetorical tactic.

The reason I said you took what I said as an attack is because in the quote below you said you took what I said as an attack.
You are free to attack me with the notion I hear what I hear because it makes me feel intelligent.
Seems pretty clear.
If I were only who I really am you would be talking to God.
I presume you're not using the conventional notion of an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful creator god who transcends time and space. What sort of god are you?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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JP has no qualm with laws limiting speech. He only made a stink of this law because he believed it compelled speech, which it does not.

I'd agree with his objection if the law was compelling speech. The government should never do that. You have to understand the difference between preventing speech and compelling speech. Your first paragraph makes it seem like you still do not understand that important distinction, because if you did, you would never compare fire in a crowded theater with forcing you to call someone a girl. The law does not force him to call someone a girl. The law prevents him from calling someone a girl (or boy or whatever) if they have asked him to stop doing so. This would be an unreasonable law if it applied to everyone, everywhere, but the law he is taking issue with only applies to people in positions of power. There is a lot of power invested in making sure people like you continue to fight for them against your own best interests and the interests of all subordinates.
But having just watched the first video igor_kavinski linked immediately above Peterson does not make that claim. What is said, to my ears at least is that he has studied totalitarian governments for forty years and knows how totalitarianism starts and that the Canadian bill, while on the subject of gender, at a deeper level was coming dangerously close to crossing over in that of how totalitarians deal with free speech. And all the while he was trying to tell those obviously traumatized kids that the capacity to debate issues and try to arrive of consensus over what speech could legitimately be legislated against many of them in their self righteous indignation were trying to silence him. They were looking to lay the blame for their suffering on somebody else and thereby get even. They had been made to feel worthless and victims of sexual bigotry and lay the blame at someone else's feet. As I have said so many times the need to target others with rage and contempt comes from having experienced the other side of it.

When I point out that Peterson is not saying what people hear because they have a need to find a target for their suffering to dump on as they were dumped on, I become the new target. I have known that would be the case for years and years and years. No surprise here, but when I don't take the insults personally or react in kind, and I have made it perfectly clear that I can as I hope you have seen, the hostility amps up.

Peterson is talking to the three monkeys, they don't see, they won't hear, and they have nothing of value to say. They just throw self justified victim mentality tantrums.

The right is self-righteously convinced they know what the good is and have no need of liberals so the liberals start screaming to be heard. That fails so they attempt to silence the right out of the self righteous certainty that doing so is the good. Meanwhile, here and there are people who can both argue and listen.

Your homework assignment (just kidding) is to ask yourself in Peterson said that the law compels speech or gets dangerously close to it. If the latter than what needs doing is examining his claim. My first thought on that matter is that I do not have forty years of studying totalitarianism and how it gets started. That is a habit I acquired from becoming aware that everything I held sacred was a lie and discovering to my utter shock that none of it was needed, that there's is something I call the joy of being but has many other names, I think.

But what I do feel is a curiosity as to why Peterson says what he does from that 40 years of analysis by first of all hearing more about his opinions. I don't need to shit on him for ideological error having, in my opinion, none or fewer myself, to defend. My victim mentality is of a different kind. I have observed a truth in psychology and Eastern systems of wisdom, that we have created a delusional reality based on a psychological mechanism, the ego, there to deny from consciousness, the life crippling feelings of worthlessness that would incapacitate us were we to let them in. The problem is that while that was true once and saved allowed us to live, it in now a kind of living death. If you were to dare to let your guard down you would open yourself again to hatred of others who deny that freedom can exist and see it as a deadly threat. We do not want to know we are the living dead. Sorry, but that's how I see it. The man most responsible for showing me all of this said, Come on in, the water's fine. Maybe I dipped a toe. It's not for me to really know.
 
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Moonbeam

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@Moonbeam






I watch the first two to the extent I could stomach all the righteous indignation because they had pictures showing in the link. I didn't watch the others because I thought they were just comments until, just now, I quoted your post. Maybe I'll take a look, but my interest isn't so much in Peterson who I do think has interesting things to say, but the people here who also seem to me to be full, very very full of righteous indignation, and because I won't join in it with them go berserk as I see it. I am a person who would stop someone from jumping off a building until I had figured out why. I am not against people taking their own lives in some conditions any more than I would let a curious child lose to explore a mental institution. Unfortunately nobody saved me or anybody else I know from that.
 

Moonbeam

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No, I don't see any truth in your statement that I don't think about what is being said, nor that I am a radical leftist or a programmed bigot.
Can you see that just such a person might reach the same conclusion? Does it make sense that a reason why a person might not hear what Peterson is saying could be for those reasons. Would personalizing that charge and directing it at you tell us something about whether you are interested in an idea objectively or whether you might be motivated to turn it into a personal attack if so personalized in your direction. People attack each other, in my opinion, because of feelings of being inferior they are impelled to express as attacks on the dignity of others. First off it is my job not to deny that is true of me and the more I see it the less so that will be. The result translates into some small capacity to have the courage to be who I am. Another result is that we are psychologically predisposed to hear anything we have been programmed to think of as a negative is being directed at us. You, unlike most people, are willing to go to the mat to articulate your reactions to me rather than simply retreating only in emotional outrage.

We have to be careful, also of what a radical leftist means to you as compared to how I see it. A radical leftist for me is a person on the left who is righteously indignantly certain that what they hold sacred is truth.
Listening to what is being said and observing Jordan's shitty debate tactics are separate things, and I can do both of them. If Jordan had just let him speak and complete his thoughts most of the things he interrupted about would have been satisfactorily explained, regardless of whether he agreed with Matt nor not. You see Jordan being excited and speeding ahead of Matt. I see Jordan doing this deliberately as a rhetorical tactic.
You know what I do not and are certain of it. I am certain I do not know what you know. That translates to me that you have an opinion that you believe to be factual whereas I believe that if Peterson were doing that he and he alone would know it. Since everything that I saw in the exchange indicated no confession from him to doing that, and all of the signs I read said otherwise to me, I reject your claim. I have acquired the habit from the discovery I do not know anything as a process of the loss of everything I held sacred and the direct lived misery that resulted emotionally from that loss, the habit of not believing what other believe, and furthermore that why they cling to, defend, and persist to believe what often can be scientifically proven not to be factual.

The subject of Flat-Earthers came up earlier in this thread. Why do people believe the world if flat when we actually know that it isn't. Is it because they are stupid, ignorant, ill informed, programmed, delusional, etc? I don't think so even though they may be all those things. I think it is because they crave the attention that willful imbecility evokes in those whose sense of self importance is tied to ego identification with being rational. What happens to a person who has been made to feel worthlessly unimportant and undeserving not just of love but any positive attention at all? What they will do in my opinion is substitute negative attention for positive attention and they will get in your fact with anything that makes you notice them both to get even with those who belittled them and everybody else. And what do we do in reply but feed them the negative attention they desire because their irrational notions upset our logic world view and threaten our own misplaced self esteem.
The reason I said you took what I said as an attack is because in the quote below you said you took what I said as an attack.

Seems pretty clear.

I presume you're not using the conventional notion of an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful creator god who transcends time and space. What sort of god are you?
Nice job and you re right. My world view is founded on the effects of and the unconscious motivations created by self hate, both how that leads to attacking others and denying truth about what I call the real truth of the matter. Further, I believe that we all have been programmed with self hate, both of us included. But because I carelessly spoke in generalities does not mean that anything you say about me has to be an attack which is what I literally and imprecisely said.
 
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The subject of Flat-Earthers came up earlier in this thread. Why do people believe the world if flat when we actually know that it isn't. Is it because they are stupid, ignorant, ill informed, programmed, delusional, etc? I don't think so even though they may be all those things. I think it is because they crave the attention that willful imbecility evokes in those whose sense of self importance is tied to ego identification with being rational. What happens to a person who has been made to feel worthlessly unimportant and undeserving not just of love but any positive attention at all? What they will do in my opinion is substitute negative attention for positive attention and they will get in your fact with anything that makes you notice them both to get even with those who belittled them and everybody else. And what do we do in reply but feed them the negative attention they desire because their irrational notions upset our logic world view and threaten our own misplaced self esteem.
THIS!

It's actually more fact than your opinion. A lot of attention craving people who feel unloved and under-appreciated will cling to what they think are radical ideas even when they make no sense because it gets them what they can't have otherwise: the attention of people they used to admire but who ignored them so now they hate them with a vengeance.
 
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Moonbeam

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THIS!

It's actually more fact than your opinion. A lot of attention craving people who feel unloved and under-appreciated will cling to what they think are radical ideas even when they make no sense because it gets them what they can't have otherwise: the attention of people they used to admire but who ignored them so now they hate them with a vengeance.
Even if it is a fact I prefer to call it an opinion because it is not a point of view that is widely enough understood to cause people to seek a way to help such people rather than as enablers. If you call it a fact somebody will argue with you seeking your attention not that if you do call it opinion they still won't try.
 

Pontius Dilate

Senior member
Mar 28, 2008
297
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Can you see that just such a person might reach the same conclusion? Does it make sense that a reason why a person might not hear what Peterson is saying could be for those reasons. Would personalizing that charge and directing it at you tell us something about whether you are interested in an idea objectively or whether you might be motivated to turn it into a personal attack if so personalized in your direction.
I mean, sure. Someone else could come to a different conclusion. If we invited a third person to share their opinion they might draw yet a different conclusion from the first two. I just reject your conclusion. Regarding your last sentence, are you saying you personalized your conclusion and directed it at me in order to gather information about whether I was interested in or willing to entertain your idea objectively as opposed to taking it as an attack? No idea if I have that right, but assuming I do I would say that could be seen as manipulative. If you are modulating your responses to sound like attacks in order to provoke an emotional response when you could otherwise just speak plainly and refrain from making declarations about the inner life of others, that's a bit manipulative. Probably I just don't understand what you were meaning to say in that sentence.
We have to be careful, also of what a radical leftist means to you as compared to how I see it. A radical leftist for me is a person on the left who is righteously indignantly certain that what they hold sacred is truth.
That's an interesting definition. While the term radical leftist is at least somewhat subjective in its meaning, for example the current Republican orthodoxy says that everyone who is to the left of the Republican party is a radical leftist, I don't think anyone would be able to come up with your definition without being told that's what it means to you. If you're going to use a relatively common term like that, using it in a way that no one but you understands is not particular conducive to clear communication.
You know what I do not and are certain of it. I am certain I do not know what you know. That translates to me that you have an opinion that you believe to be factual whereas I believe that if Peterson were doing that he and he alone would know it. Since everything that I saw in the exchange indicated no confession from him to doing that, and all of the signs I read said otherwise to me, I reject your claim. I have acquired the habit from the discovery I do not know anything as a process of the loss of everything I held sacred and the direct lived misery that resulted emotionally from that loss, the habit of not believing what other believe, and furthermore that why they cling to, defend, and persist to believe what often can be scientifically proven not to be factual.
I have an opinion I believe to be a valid opinion. I could be wrong as I've never spoken with Peterson and the odds that ever I will with enough time to have a deep conversation on this subject are effectively zero. My opinion is not subject to scientific proof and neither is yours. They are opinions, equal in all ways and speaking for myself sincerely held. Your opinions do not hold a privileged position with respect to anyone else's. My opinions about Peterson do not come solely from this one debate.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,873
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I mean, sure. Someone else could come to a different conclusion. If we invited a third person to share their opinion they might draw yet a different conclusion from the first two. I just reject your conclusion.
Yes and I reject your conclusion for the stated reasons that it requires in my opinion the detection in Peterson of a duplicity and malevolence of intent I don't see. Furthermore I believe that as beauty is in the eye of the beholder so are negative views which brings us right back to my assertion that to read into a situation as representing malevolent intent one has to start with an a priori sense that carriers of that attitude will bring to whatever they see. I am not telling you that is your condition. I am showing you what I believe is one explanation for why people can differ in that they think they see.

Regarding your last sentence, are you saying you personalized your conclusion and directed it at me in order to gather information about whether I was interested in or willing to entertain your idea objectively as opposed to taking it as an attack? No idea if I have that right, but assuming I do I would say that could be seen as manipulative. If you are modulating your responses to sound like attacks in order to provoke an emotional response when you could otherwise just speak plainly and refrain from making declarations about the inner life of others, that's a bit manipulative. Probably I just don't understand what you were meaning to say in that sentence.
This seems like such an an honest description of seeking understanding that I feel a need to complement you and comment on it. That out of the way, I see some real struggle ahead for me trying to clarify. The first thing I realize is that I a a person who acts on hunch and instinct, on whatever thoughts arise out of what I am experiencing. I could say that I am experimental or risk taking, that I put myself out there and am willing to experience ridicule. Part of how I can self justify doing so if that is what it this is, is that I believe the only harm I can do to people isn't real. We were wounded long ago as children, don't remember and do not want to know when told we are that way. The danger to myself and others is all the repressed rage we bottle up to keep from awakening expressing hopefully as attacks on me and not in the form of self harm which people to as payback for the pain they feel.

So I tell stories, reflect back to people what I think their game is confront deception with what I feel will reveal it, etc. In short I do not follow social etiquette or normal rules of politeness. My aim is to direct attention to unexamined assumptions buried maintained by popular belief. I am a outlier or an outsider in how I look at the wold, naturally, in my opinion. This is the result, in my opinion, not because I have esoteric truths that reflect my capacity, but because I don't know what others do, I died to my sacred beliefs, I did not really know what I thought I did.
That's an interesting definition. While the term radical leftist is at least somewhat subjective in its meaning, for example the current Republican orthodoxy says that everyone who is to the left of the Republican party is a radical leftist, I don't think anyone would be able to come up with your definition without being told that's what it means to you. If you're going to use a relatively common term like that, using it in a way that no one but you understands is not particular conducive to clear communication.
But if you will observe what I do you may see that makes not the slightest difference because nobody cares to ask how I can justify using the term in the way I see Peterson intending. They scream in your face, shout you down, or drum over you attempt to explain, and pull the plug on your microphone. Such people are only interested in getting the attention Peterson has because some people are willing to listen, and they feel their hurts don't rank. They want to be the center of attention and outrageous behavior is their path to success. That's my opinion.
I have an opinion I believe to be a valid opinion. I could be wrong as I've never spoken with Peterson and the odds that ever I will with enough time to have a deep conversation on this subject are effectively zero. My opinion is not subject to scientific proof and neither is yours. They are opinions, equal in all ways and speaking for myself sincerely held. Your opinions do not hold a privileged position with respect to anyone else's. My opinions about Peterson do not come solely from this one debate.
Are you telling me that my opinions aren't sacred cows that everybody should believe if they want to be happy.

What I am telling you is that your right to value your own opinion can be the same thing as worshiping it. What I am trying to tell you is that I don't value my opinions because I don't have any that are sacred. I have opinions about other people's opinion that they can't possibly know there is truth, sacredness, in them because there was no truth or sacredness in the ones I used to believe in. Owing to the presence of self hate and the need for am alternative substitute for it, we identify with and impute sacredness in programmed belief. I saw that in myself. My Mother told me to be honest much to her regret at times.