One downside of Intel canning BCLK OC on SKL

[crashtech]

How much do you normally sell these low end systems? Just curious.

I do 8GB memory and an SSD even on the low-end boxes that get sold, right now one of those with Win10 and a G1820 goes for $425. It's not price competitive with the boxes out there with 4GB and a spinner, but with a little customer education it's possible to get them into a pretty good computing experience, just try speccing out 8GB and an SSD in a cheap machine at a big box store.

 

[cbn]

It is. For a certain subset of people. Non-enthusiasts, that would rather a cheap (and slower) AM1 rig, and save their money to spend at the casino. Because as long as they have a working PC to get to Facebook, they don't care otherwise.

Just curious, for this group of people.....do they pay the extra money for Windows? Or do they go for Linux Mint?

 

[cbn]

Yes, as long as you can make people believe so. Google for example fooled a lot of people with their motto alone. Clever PR move.

Are you referring to "Don't be evil"?

If anything that motto probably put more people on guard about Google than if they didn't have a motto.

 

[Vortex6700]

What a fascinating story, tell us more, and link to your sources!

It really is. They actually designed it for a company that made cash registers and had to buy the license from them before selling it.

I'll let the whole story wait for another thread. Shame to lock a good thread with off topic tales of yesteryear.

 

[crashtech]

It really is. They actually designed it for a company that made cash registers and had to buy the license from them before selling it.

I'll let the whole story wait for another thread. Shame to lock a good thread with off topic tales of yesteryear.

In your original post, you claim that they bought the design, when what they did was secure the right to market their own bespoke design. Your post was misleading.

 

[Vortex6700]

In your original post, you claim that they bought the design, when what they did was secure the right to market their own bespoke design. Your post was misleading.

I'm sorry if I confused anyone with my obscure reference.

Lets try this:

Intel designed the second microprocessor to be bought from a company. They were subcontracted to do design work and then had to purchase the design from the company they worked for in order to develop it into thier own processor.

Now, like I said, let's try not to lock a thread.

 

[escrow4]

What happened to your budget CPU love, for what is essentially a "Facebook box"?

And for those questioning my judgement on OCing budget rigs for people, I do always explain the downsides, and I don't clock them to "the max".

I sold a friend a Q6600, that was clocked to "the max", 3.6Ghz. It ran fine for me, rock solid actually. But when he got it, he put it in a closed cabinet, and it essentially cooked itself. I fixed it for him, replaced the PSU, and re-clocked it to something more reasonable and stable, like 3.2-3.3Ghz.

For an E5200, I would probably clock it from 2.5 to 3.0, on near stock voltage, but not higher.

For a G3258, depending on mobo and it's limit, I might only clock it from 3.2 to 3.6Ghz. Still, free performance is free performance.

Edit: Oh, and if I could convince people like that to part with some of their precious casino money to spend it on a higher-tier CPU, I would, but... what do you say to a Facebook user? "Once you get malware, this here i5 will slow down your PC less..."?

If they want a Facebook box give them a Celeron. If they want anything more give them an i5. An i3 is a waste and a Pentium likely isn't worth the extra change.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If they want a Facebook box give them a Celeron. If they want anything more give them an i5. An i3 is a waste and a Pentium likely isn't worth the extra change.

I have a thread open in GH about a particular client with the E5200 rig, with a possibly bum PSU in it now. (Cheap case PSU, it's about five years old, not unexpected. Not overclocked.)

Was exploring possibilities of trying to talk them into an upgrade. An E5200, while not horrible, is kind of dated these days. Especially using the GMA onboard video, with VGA output, and no SSD.

Was exploring either a G3258 combo, and using the IGP possibly, and a SATA6G SSD, or transplanting their 775 mobo + E5200 and 4GB DDR3 to a new case+PSU, and adding a GT610/620 card, and a SATA6G ASMedia controller card (that I've had success with thus far), and adding a SATA6G SSD that way. Currently, they're using a HDD. (Back in 2011, SSDs were mostly either too tiny, or prohibitively expensive for extreme budget builds.)

I've already offered to supply a 120GB SSD for free for the re-build.

 

[Phynaz]

No.

IBM circa 1970 and Intel now are classified as trusts. Trusts are large companies that attempt to gain monopolistic powers. VIA never paid oems billions to not buy a better part.


The reason intel has a better product is because they got the engineers. The reason they got the engineers was because they sued all but two of thier competition out of the market, and when one of those two made a better product, they paid thier customers not to buy it.

This is not something that happens with every company and it is extremely illegal and detrimental to the market.

You should read before blindly repping a company.

Edit: AMD BOD could very well have done this damage on thier own, but they didn't.

And the doj sued IBM. The flaw in your " logic" is Intel hasn't been sued, and has never lost a court case in the United States.

You're the that should be doing the reading before blindly defending a company.

 

[Phynaz]

It really is. They actually designed it for a company that made cash registers and had to buy the license from them before selling it.

I'll let the whole story wait for another thread. Shame to lock a good thread with off topic tales of yesteryear.

It was actually a calculator company. And they didn't buy a license, they negotiated the rights to the chip when Busnicomm wanted a price reduction.

 

[Phynaz]

nvm

 

[cbn]

There is a class of customers, to whom there is a relatively fixed budget ceiling. For those people, cutting off the availability of cheap budget clockers, doesn't mean that those customers got higher on Intel's product stack - it means that they look somewhere else, which is a kind of code speak for "switching to AMD".

I agree with that.

Most people typically have their phone and their laptop....and anything beyond this may be seen as a luxury item.

So when it comes time to spend discretionary money on something they think they may not need a desktop may also get compared to a console ( if their primary desire for more powerful hardware is gaming).

For these people, the value needs to beat a $350 Xbox One, etc.

Unfortunately in the current landscape of low end Intel desktop CPU performance per dollar hasn't been improving that much over the last ~five years. The major exception was the G3258 which when overclocked could handle a R7 250X dGPU (which is in the ballpark of a Xbox One GPU).

P.S. Here is a list of the lowest end Pentiums starting with Sandy Bridge and moving up through Skylake:

G620 (SB 2.6 Ghz, $64, Q2 2011) http://ark.intel.com/products/53480/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G620-3M-Cache-2_60-GHz
G2010 (IV 2.8 Ghz, $64, Q1 2013) http://ark.intel.com/products/71071/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G2010-3M-Cache-2_80-GHz
G3220 (HSW 3.0 Ghz, $64, Q3 2013) http://ark.intel.com/products/77773/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G3220-3M-Cache-3_00-GHz
G4400 (SKL 3.3 GHz, $64, Q3 2015) http://ark.intel.com/products/88179/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G4400-3M-Cache-3_30-GHz

So for the same $64 a person 4 years 1 quarter later gained 700 Mhz and perhaps 30% higher IPC along with a iGPU that doubled the number of EUs from 6 to 12 (accompanied by architectural improvements). AES-NI and Vt-d was also added with Skylake.

 

[ElFenix]

And the doj sued IBM. The flaw in your " logic" is Intel hasn't been sued, and has never lost a court case in the United States.

You're the that should be doing the reading before blindly defending a company.

well aren't we misleading.

 

[Piroko]

I have a thread open in GH about a particular client with the E5200 rig, with a possibly bum PSU in it now. (Cheap case PSU, it's about five years old, not unexpected. Not overclocked.)

Was exploring possibilities of trying to talk them into an upgrade. An E5200, while not horrible, is kind of dated these days. Especially using the GMA onboard video, with VGA output, and no SSD.

Was exploring either a G3258 combo, and using the IGP possibly, and a SATA6G SSD, or transplanting their 775 mobo + E5200 and 4GB DDR3 to a new case+PSU, and adding a GT610/620 card, and a SATA6G ASMedia controller card (that I've had success with thus far), and adding a SATA6G SSD that way.

Personally, I would go for the G3258 combo with IGP.
My reason is that I loathe needlessly complex systems and an E5200 system with GT610 and SATA6G ASMedia controller card would hit almost all of my "dont's" in a single system (why not add a sound card and a wireless LAN card while you're at it? :awe: ).

Though I would also replace the PSU, just because I want to more than anything else.

 

[Vortex6700]

And the doj sued IBM. The flaw in your " logic" is Intel hasn't been sued, and has never lost a court case in the United States.

You're the that should be doing the reading before blindly defending a company.

Stop trolling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanc..._v._Intel_Corp.

Contents:
1991 antitrust lawsuit AMD vs INTEL: Court ruled against INTEL
2009 Korea Fair Trade Commission Fined Intel et. al for forming a cartel
2009 AMD sued intel for paying customers not to buy AMD : Court Ruled for AMD

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-in...0EN0M120140612

Contents:
2009 EU Fines Intel 1.06 Billion euro ($1.44B) for offering rebates to those refusing to do business with AMD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel#Lawsuits

Contents:
2005 JAP forces intel to cease rebates for businesses refusing to work with AMD
2008 South Korea fines Intel $25M for the rebate scam (same as above)
2010 Dell settles with the SEC for $100M for hiding the agreement with intel to receive rebates for not doing business with AMD


Trust, noun: a large company that has or attempts to gain monopolistic control of a market.

 

[Ranulf]

VGA is going the way of the dodo. Its obsolete.

No and yes. Yes it is obsolete, no it is not going the way of the dodo. Most monitors on store shelves for $90-200 have vga and hdmi. Now DVI, that is going the way of the dodo sadly. I much prefer it over hdmi or vga.

Toss in Larry's point about cheap refurbs/used monitors from recyclers and no, vga is going to be around awhile.

I'm tempted to get a 3258 combo deal just for fun or as a backup system but only because they're about $100 still. Beyond that, I don't see how Intel is that compelling for the budget market.

 

[Madpacket]

Stop trolling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanc..._v._Intel_Corp.

Contents:
1991 antitrust lawsuit AMD vs INTEL: Court ruled against INTEL
2009 Korea Fair Trade Commission Fined Intel et. al for forming a cartel
2009 AMD sued intel for paying customers not to buy AMD : Court Ruled for AMD

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-in...0EN0M120140612

Contents:
2009 EU Fines Intel 1.06 Billion euro ($1.44B) for offering rebates to those refusing to do business with AMD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel#Lawsuits

Contents:
2005 JAP forces intel to cease rebates for businesses refusing to work with AMD
2008 South Korea fines Intel $25M for the rebate scam (same as above)
2010 Dell settles with the SEC for $100M for hiding the agreement with intel to receive rebates for not doing business with AMD


Trust, noun: a large company that has or attempts to gain monopolistic control of a market.

Nice summary and a good reminder of what AMD was and still is up against. I remember back when I worked as a PC technician at a mom and pop shop in the early 2000's - the only way to buy AMD Athlon motherboards was in white unlabeled, unmarked boxes. Motherboard manufacturers were terrified Intel would cut them off if they found out they were selling AMD motherboards back then.

 

[superstition]

Are you referring to "Don't be evil"?

If anything that motto probably put more people on guard about Google than if they didn't have a motto.

Only if they don't know what corporations are and why they exist.

They're constructs designed to enrich shareholders and the CEO class at everyone else's expense.

 

[crashtech]

Only if they don't know what corporations are and why they exist.

They're constructs designed to enrich shareholders and the CEO class at everyone else's expense.

Not by definition, and to try and bring anti-business sentiments up in the CPU subforum is kinda like a fart in church, imo. All the toys we play with here are made by the corporations you apparently hate. So why are you here? You could take up wood carving, for example.

 

[Arachnotronic]

All the toys we play with here are made by the corporations you apparently hate. So why are you here? You could take up wood carving, for example.

This is just an excellent post. :thumbsup:

 

[hojnikb]

I have a thread open in GH about a particular client with the E5200 rig, with a possibly bum PSU in it now. (Cheap case PSU, it's about five years old, not unexpected. Not overclocked.)

Was exploring possibilities of trying to talk them into an upgrade. An E5200, while not horrible, is kind of dated these days. Especially using the GMA onboard video, with VGA output, and no SSD.

Was exploring either a G3258 combo, and using the IGP possibly, and a SATA6G SSD, or transplanting their 775 mobo + E5200 and 4GB DDR3 to a new case+PSU, and adding a GT610/620 card, and a SATA6G ASMedia controller card (that I've had success with thus far), and adding a SATA6G SSD that way. Currently, they're using a HDD. (Back in 2011, SSDs were mostly either too tiny, or prohibitively expensive for extreme budget builds.)

I've already offered to supply a 120GB SSD for free for the re-build.

Why would you bother with that ? 3Gbit is still plenty for SSDs and an asmedia card will make things worse.
People still fail to realize that sequential transfers dont really matter. Its the low queue random performance, that matter for user experience. And intel's native 3Gbit sata will be better or the same at something like that

 

[VirtualLarry]

Why would you bother with that ? 3Gbit is still plenty for SSDs and an asmedia card will make things worse.
People still fail to realize that sequential transfers dont really matter. Its the low queue random performance, that matter for user experience. And intel's native 3Gbit sata will be better or the same at something like that

Even if the board uses an ICH7, which doesn't offer AHCI mode, so no NCQ on the SSD? The ASMedia does offer AHCI and NCQ.

Plus, the mobo only has two SATA ports, and if I add an SSD to the mix, along with the HDD (keep it for storage), and DVD drive, that's three SATA devices and only two ports.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Larry, you've just described a perfect use case for a 3rd party add-on sata contoller. And ICH7/ or just about anything else without AHCI ie IDE mode would slow down modern SSDs quite a bit. I retired one of the similar rigs last week, maybe you should do that as well.

 

[Denithor]

Larry, just do something like this for your average "very budget" customer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optipl...280390?hash=item58d61bfc86:g:KIMAAOSw~OVWxgXP

$100 shipped
Dell OptiPlex 390 in tiny case
i3-2120 3.3GHz
4GB RAM
250GB HDD

Get a Dell W7 OS disc and you can install clean copy of Windows on the spinner, or if budget allows drop in a 120GB SSD ($60-70) and keep spinner for storage (move My Documents & etc onto spinner). With spinner, sell for $150, with SSD, sell for $225. Minimal work as most everything is already assembled. There is a constant stream of these models on eBay, off-lease machines needing a new home. Plenty of CPU power there for routine tasks most people will do with desktops these days.

 

[Magic Carpet]

@Denithor

Great advice :thumbsup: