I agree with Tycho, and I think he summed up the reason a number of members around here come off as insane, argumentative and irrational. However, I think part of the problem is that gamer's always broach this issue from a "I'm not a warezer" stand point. We all know full well that a good number of people have to warez here. It's prevalent, some of you are fucking doing it. And if I assume that some of you are in fact warezing, then your stances make a lot more sense, because you don't want to solve the problem, you want to continue exploiting it.
ZzZGuy
Golden Member
- Nov 15, 2006
- 1,855
- 0
- 0
With the no dedicated server issue, it would be a issue if I ever had any interest in MP. COD series is good, $15 one play through on SP good. If it was good enough to play full price I wouldn't pay full price with what they are trying to do.
If they want my money, they have to work for it. Oh, and I consider what "Tycho" said to be utter BS. I don't know who they hang out with or talk to but that is far from reality as well as ignoring what consumers what in favor of what the companies want. I don't give a shit what they think, if I don't like it I do not buy it.
If they want my money, they have to work for it. Oh, and I consider what "Tycho" said to be utter BS. I don't know who they hang out with or talk to but that is far from reality as well as ignoring what consumers what in favor of what the companies want. I don't give a shit what they think, if I don't like it I do not buy it.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,758
- 603
- 126
I agree with what he said in this news post, more or less. He seems to downplay the outrage a bit much, however his main point is quite correct: The PC is the most open platform, a new game will be along shortly. I can understand this is little consolation to serious fans of this series, but there isn't really any reason to get super angry. Just don't buy it and buy a different game instead. Everyone knows by now petitions and whining do nothing. Just vote with your wallet and move on.
His description of piracy is sadly...pretty dead on. Perhaps piracy was more taboo on here and elsewhere in the past, but I've noticed a rash of people lately saying that they will be pirating this game because of this dedicated server business (or something else, generally DRM) as if this was sort of principled position. They claim that they would have certainly otherwise purchased this game if it only had dedicated servers. I say thats a bunch of bullshit, they would have just found some other excuse to justify it and that they really aren't righteous about the dedicated server thing at all because they would just refuse to buy it or play it if they were. I understand the arguement that pirated versions often are more consumer friendly then purchased versions in that they have annoying DRM restrictions removed. However, I fail to see how a pirated version is going to work around the lack of dedicated servers.
I've noticed similar arguements rolling out on slashdot lately. "Well, I'll just pirate it because I didn't like the developer's funny beard." If that were really a big concern, you'd just not buy it. Again, it isn't a cure of cancer its a computer game. There is literally no economic harm you can do to yourself by boycotting the product.
I'm somewhat annoyed since when I see all these posts peppered into the discussion I frankly can't think of a reason the developers should really take the rabble seriously. But then again, it is only a game at stake...I suppose I have bigger things to worry about.
His description of piracy is sadly...pretty dead on. Perhaps piracy was more taboo on here and elsewhere in the past, but I've noticed a rash of people lately saying that they will be pirating this game because of this dedicated server business (or something else, generally DRM) as if this was sort of principled position. They claim that they would have certainly otherwise purchased this game if it only had dedicated servers. I say thats a bunch of bullshit, they would have just found some other excuse to justify it and that they really aren't righteous about the dedicated server thing at all because they would just refuse to buy it or play it if they were. I understand the arguement that pirated versions often are more consumer friendly then purchased versions in that they have annoying DRM restrictions removed. However, I fail to see how a pirated version is going to work around the lack of dedicated servers.
I've noticed similar arguements rolling out on slashdot lately. "Well, I'll just pirate it because I didn't like the developer's funny beard." If that were really a big concern, you'd just not buy it. Again, it isn't a cure of cancer its a computer game. There is literally no economic harm you can do to yourself by boycotting the product.
I'm somewhat annoyed since when I see all these posts peppered into the discussion I frankly can't think of a reason the developers should really take the rabble seriously. But then again, it is only a game at stake...I suppose I have bigger things to worry about.
PhatoseAlpha
Platinum Member
- Apr 10, 2005
- 2,131
- 21
- 81
Shot in the dark. The logical approach would be to simply pull out of the market entirely with any and all AAA titiles, leave the pc for niche titles developed on the cheap.
PhatoseAlpha
Platinum Member
- Apr 10, 2005
- 2,131
- 21
- 81
Aye. Because, as has been noted, DRM is not working.
That doesn't mean we should clamor for those affected to stop trying though.
I think we are facing the 1st YoY decrease in sales in over 10 years.
Before that, it was setting sales records for 10 consecutive years.
the good thing is this will extend the liftetime of modern warfare 1.
they have pretty much killed competitive mw2 before it releases with the no dedicated server bullshit.
no custom league maps, no custom league configs etc... good choice iw!
i have already cancelled my pre order for the game.
they have pretty much killed competitive mw2 before it releases with the no dedicated server bullshit.
no custom league maps, no custom league configs etc... good choice iw!
i have already cancelled my pre order for the game.
Praxis1452
Platinum Member
- Jan 31, 2006
- 2,197
- 0
- 0
There are pretty much two option that we are talking about. Pirating and buying. A rational individual would weigh the costs and benefits of both, and figure out which they would choose.
Pirating has minimal cost, low chance of detection, but often requires a bit more effort installing it as well as limited access to MP.
Buying it has high cost, but access to MP, and often uses DRM.
A company crippling their product with no dedicated servers like MW2 only adds a negative to buying and downloading it. But, it gives a boost to piracy because people don't have to pay for a legit copy of the game, so why would they pay money for a crappy legit copy that has a shitty MP system.
It's not about what's right, it's about making money, and the best way is to offer features that cannot be pirated, such that people will want to buy your game. An example in many ways is the ease of joining and connecting to others on steam games. Hard to pirate, but the ease of use tends to make up for it. Steam is incredibly restrictive, but not many complain because for most people, it's worth it.
Whether or not you believe their reasons means nothing, and whether or not that blogger tells people not to buy that game means nothing either. If the game is not worth the money, but worth the time to play a bit, the choice is obvious: pirate it.
Most PC gamers would like to believe that's the world they live in. You need to read Phatose's point below.
I'm not convinced of that. If they had reason to believe they'd be more profitable without DRM, I have no doubt they'd switch to that business model.
Saying "they can't stop it so they need to ignore it" is essentially inviting game developers to abandon the PC as a platform.
I like you more and more every day. You seem to be able to think clearly about these situations, which is a rare gift.
Perhaps for this release yet, but who knows. Maybe they're leveraging the Call of Duty brand to get IW.net off the ground, and implement their own VAC type DRM in the future. Speculation is all that is though.
I speak to too many people who download games as try-before-buying. Some of them legitimately purchase if they liked the game. More of them just play it and delete it and keep their money.
It's pretty clear the problem exists on the PC as a platform. Game development companies aren't going to waste the money and resources (not to mention the PR risk) chasing a phantom this costly.
This is the big misconception people aren't getting. They think DRM hurts everyone. It doesn't. Game companies knew what their sales were like before DRM, and they know what they're like now after it. Obviously, if they were making more money before, they'd switch back.
A lot of the "DRM outrage" is people convincing themselves a faulty worldview is correct.
They are far more informed than you. Recall that the Penny Arcade Expo is now bigger than E3, with more companies demoing their upcoming products. They have scads of personal relationships with people in the industry.
What you can *bank* on, friend, is that in any disagreement you have with them regarding what "the developers" think - you are very much wrong.
The problem here is that most pirates are hiding as customers. They're happy to provide feedback and then go pirate it anyway. If you truly want a voice, you're going to have to start railing against people you know are part of the problem.
Another part of the problem is that a large portion of their customer base is broke, teenage and college aged males who don't want to pay for shit.
In gross numbers yes, but marketshare was actually falling. Console usage jumped an absurd amount over the past decade. PC marketshare didn't drop because less people were playing PC games, but because the console market exploded.
Or, rather, because when you have a job $50 just isn't that big of a fucking deal, even if you end up lukewarm on the purchase. I don't buy a game until I'm convinced the purchase will be worth it. This happens in many ways - trusted reviews, playing a friend's copy on their machine, demos, etc.
mindcycle
Golden Member
- Jan 9, 2008
- 1,901
- 0
- 76
I find it funny that there are those of you, you know who you are, that truly believe that if someone is against invasive DRM they must be a pirate. You'll go to great lengths to convince yourself that pirates are the only ones who would possibly want to bitch about DRM and that they somehow want DRM dropped so it will make pirating easier or some other bizarre reasoning.
Let me make something clear for you. DRM doesn't affect pirates. It never has and it never will. Pirates will download cracked versions of games with the DRM already bypassed and play their game with ease while legit customers get stuck with the problems. This has been the case for as long as copy protection has existed and isn't going to change anytime soon. So please stop bringing up this tired argument. It's so utterly absurd that I can't begin to understand how someone could convince themselves that it's true. I mean, who brainwashed you into believing that pirates are vocally against something that doesn't affect them whatsoever? Oh wait, never mind.. His name is John Riccitiello.. lol
So the solution, IMO, is to treat your customers like customers again and not like potential thieves. Why focus on pirates when they aren't the ones paying your salary? Why put any effort, and especially money, into a group of people who aren't going to pay you anything anyway? Why drive away your potential customers with invasive DRM that doesn't work? In an industry that is already having problems, why add fuel to the fire by creating additional roadblocks? It just makes no sense to me..
Let me make something clear for you. DRM doesn't affect pirates. It never has and it never will. Pirates will download cracked versions of games with the DRM already bypassed and play their game with ease while legit customers get stuck with the problems. This has been the case for as long as copy protection has existed and isn't going to change anytime soon. So please stop bringing up this tired argument. It's so utterly absurd that I can't begin to understand how someone could convince themselves that it's true. I mean, who brainwashed you into believing that pirates are vocally against something that doesn't affect them whatsoever? Oh wait, never mind.. His name is John Riccitiello.. lol
So the solution, IMO, is to treat your customers like customers again and not like potential thieves. Why focus on pirates when they aren't the ones paying your salary? Why put any effort, and especially money, into a group of people who aren't going to pay you anything anyway? Why drive away your potential customers with invasive DRM that doesn't work? In an industry that is already having problems, why add fuel to the fire by creating additional roadblocks? It just makes no sense to me..
VashHT
Diamond Member
- Feb 1, 2007
- 3,361
- 1,439
- 136
I think it's pretty stupid, and he's generalizing PC gamers from the portion that does pirate. As a matter of fact it's pretty easy to see counters to his generalization in every way on this forum, but the one that pisses me off is his 3rd point, just because I refuse to buy games that have crappy MP or install limits doesn't mean I pirate them.
If he can't see companies are hurting themselves then he is blind to one side of the problem. Obviously pirates hurt companies, but to say they aren't hurting themselves with stupid ass design choices is just ignorant.
EDIT: I just wanted to add that his reasons he gives for us as to why we're pissed off at IW are off base too. The main reason is we're losing mods and custom maps and the ability to run our own servers, not because it's a supposed anti-piracy measure and the fact they're going to sell us maps now.
PhatoseAlpha
Platinum Member
- Apr 10, 2005
- 2,131
- 21
- 81
It's not that we believe anyone against invasive DRM is a pirate.
We just realize that focusing on your actual customers actually means 'Make games for the consoles instead'.
If the pirates can't be stopped, the reality is there aren't enough actual consumers to merit spending money on PC development for anything other then low budget, niche titles. The producers, aware that the pc 'market' is tiny because so few actually pay, will shift their focus elsewhere. The PC will stop being the lead platform, ports will be delayed if at all, done as cheaply as possible thus with low quality, and eventually will simply cease.
....which is a pretty darn good description of what's happening right now.
The PC gaming market will not sustain itself at the level of development costs we're used to if piracy is not curbed. If DRM won't affect the pirates, fine. But realize, that's not going to mean we all get AAA titles with no DRM. We'll get hand-me-downs from the consoles months after they've come and gone, shoddy port jobs and the occasional rough gem developed on the cheap in eastern europe by devs that will switch to the consoles the second they can.
Frankly, if my choices are deal with DRM in the vain hope we can avoid that, or sit back and live off the console's crumbs....well, frankly DRM don't seem so bad anymore.
We just realize that focusing on your actual customers actually means 'Make games for the consoles instead'.
If the pirates can't be stopped, the reality is there aren't enough actual consumers to merit spending money on PC development for anything other then low budget, niche titles. The producers, aware that the pc 'market' is tiny because so few actually pay, will shift their focus elsewhere. The PC will stop being the lead platform, ports will be delayed if at all, done as cheaply as possible thus with low quality, and eventually will simply cease.
....which is a pretty darn good description of what's happening right now.
The PC gaming market will not sustain itself at the level of development costs we're used to if piracy is not curbed. If DRM won't affect the pirates, fine. But realize, that's not going to mean we all get AAA titles with no DRM. We'll get hand-me-downs from the consoles months after they've come and gone, shoddy port jobs and the occasional rough gem developed on the cheap in eastern europe by devs that will switch to the consoles the second they can.
Frankly, if my choices are deal with DRM in the vain hope we can avoid that, or sit back and live off the console's crumbs....well, frankly DRM don't seem so bad anymore.
coloumb
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 4,069
- 0
- 81
So if I understand this correctly - you have to log into a remote dedicated server [run by the company or a legitimate server house] rather than being able to host your own server? Is it nothing more than PC gamers losing control of being able to host their own servers?
http://www.pcworld.com/article...are_2_a_bad_idea.html/
Am I wrong to think this all sounds way too familiar to Blizzard's latest Battle Net account requirement for their games [Diablo 2, SC 2, Wow, etc]?
If I'm correct - it's no surprise. I predicted awhile back that the online portion of PC games would be on a dedicated remote server [either hosted by the company or a server house] that you have to log into in order to play - this model is similar to what MMO's already use - the almost perfect DRM.
http://www.pcworld.com/article...are_2_a_bad_idea.html/
Am I wrong to think this all sounds way too familiar to Blizzard's latest Battle Net account requirement for their games [Diablo 2, SC 2, Wow, etc]?
If I'm correct - it's no surprise. I predicted awhile back that the online portion of PC games would be on a dedicated remote server [either hosted by the company or a server house] that you have to log into in order to play - this model is similar to what MMO's already use - the almost perfect DRM.
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