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** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

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Praxis1452

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,197
0
0
Let me go against the grain here and say I don't care what top players are doing, they represent what...2% of the playerbase? I don't imagine I'll be spending every waking second playing SC2 to worry about it and/or try to be like them. Good for them, now quit catering to them, and worry more about us crappy players.:whiste:
They're going to balance the game. They just nerfed zealot build time because it was too good on the low levels, and it doesn't disrupt higher play that much either.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
12,842
325
126
Would making Inject Larvae auto-castable be OP? I think that'll help Zerg's busy macros.
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
It took me over 25 games after I had reached rank 1 Plat. Over 35 after I had started playing diamond players every game. But my case seemed extreme...I was top 10 Plat in the US points-wise before I was promoted. Winning% was very high, not sure why it took so long.
I'd like to get to Diamond before moving to another game, but the sheer amount of games it will take to do it is ridiculous. I'm at 387 pts, and the #1 in the division is at 1,000 or something. The game is too mentally taxing to put that much effort into eking into a division that just means you're mediocre.
 

Glitchny

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2002
5,679
0
0
Would making Inject Larvae auto-castable be OP? I think that'll help Zerg's busy macros.
day9's latest daily was showcasing games where zerg made 0 queens all game, and they won. It actually showcased a bunch of interesting but strange strats that can work, and some that would benefit from a queen in the middle of the builds. It was basically showing that you *don't have to* make a queen as soon as possible. There are other things you can do and stay competitive.

I'd like to get to Diamond before moving to another game, but the sheer amount of games it will take to do it is ridiculous. I'm at 387 pts, and the #1 in the division is at 1,000 or something. The game is too mentally taxing to put that much effort into eking into a division that just means you're mediocre.
you don't have to be #1 in your division or pass the top person to move onto the next division. I went from silver to plat in under 15 games and never was above top 10 gold while I was there.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,931
593
126
Heh, the Build Order is screwed up... it says my friend made about 50 Greater Spires :p.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
11,625
182
106
I'd like to get to Diamond before moving to another game, but the sheer amount of games it will take to do it is ridiculous. I'm at 387 pts, and the #1 in the division is at 1,000 or something. The game is too mentally taxing to put that much effort into eking into a division that just means you're mediocre.
it doesn't take that long if you deserve to be there. why not just enjoy the game and whatever ladder you're in, while steadily improving your skills?
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
it doesn't take that long if you deserve to be there. why not just enjoy the game and whatever ladder you're in, while steadily improving your skills?
Honestly, it's not that fun to just take 10 minute wins off people with retarded build orders (a large amount of people in Platinum), and it feels horrible to lose via attrition after investing 30 min+ into a game.

But maybe you're right. I'm going to quit anyway, so I might as well play some games with no goals other than having fun. It's sort of freeing when you give yourself permission to play stupid as hell.
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
Honestly, it's not that fun to just take 10 minute wins off people with retarded build orders (a large amount of people in Platinum), and it feels horrible to lose via attrition after investing 30 min+ into a game.

But maybe you're right. I'm going to quit anyway, so I might as well play some games with no goals other than having fun. It's sort of freeing when you give yourself permission to play stupid as hell.
YES :D
That's one of my favorite things to do in this game. Sure it probably annoys the fuck out of my opponents, but whatever. Especially in custom games, I really don't care.

I like to pick some absolutely ridiculous strategy & see what happens. Like proxy hatch->spine rush. cauthonluck cheese. planetary fortress rush. All so glorious :D

My friend and I are going to try broodlord "rush" tomorrow. It should be sweet.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
4,818
1,205
136
i play random.
you have to run around and/or fight with workers until your first unit is out. then you use workers to block/fight the lings from getting to your marine. sometimes he dies, but usually they've lost a good amount of lings as well. your 2nd marine should be out to finish the remaining lings.

by then, you'll have economic advantage and your counter attack will easily wipe him out.

Your contradicting yourself. The workers you use for fighting the lings are the ones the 6-poolers sacrificed for his 6-pool. Some of them will die. In the end you won't be off much better economically.
And again, if the 6 pooler just runs in the middle of your probes, and does nothing else it's easy to deal with it. but if he micros his lings, gg. Also he will follow up with 6 more and so on.
Show me a rep of such a game were you (or any other person) actually did that against a well-done 6-pool without a wall-off.


Scouting after 9 is hardly that late on any 2 player map. Their pool may be done, but even playing standard, 12 gate, 14 core, you will be able to get the zealot out in time. If you really feel that it is such a big risk, then send an early probe. 6 pools are incredibly obvious, if no 6 pool, play standard.

Btw, top zerg players in korea are actually complaining more about PvZ than TvZ.
IMHO you don't have enough time at least on certain maps to get the zealot out. now after the patch this is even more problematic.

My point is, that you're solution forces me to build in a retarded way. Such a wall of will be a big disadvantage because your buildings block the space were your stalkers could be shooting the enemy (probably roaches) on the ramp.
Also you must wall-off before you even know if it is coming or not. So scouting does not really help. -> you are forced to play a certain way just because the opponent is zerg.
Also note that placing the buildings correctly isn't that easy as it sounds.

The only thing I complain about PvZ is 6-pool. Else I would agree. Zerg seems to be the easiest to beat.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,876
452
126
The only thing I complain about PvZ is 6-pool. Else I would agree. Zerg seems to be the easiest to beat.
So Zerg is usually not a problem unless they choose a strategy that will hamper your play style. If they don't put a wrench in your plans and put you out of your building comfort zone, then you can roll them pretty easily... sounds like balance to me. You seem to be complaining that you can play your way and stomp the Zerg.

Successful SC2 games seem to be constantly out-thinking your opponent or putting him out of his comfort zone, messing up his plans to force him to make new ones.
 

Praxis1452

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,197
0
0
IMHO you don't have enough time at least on certain maps to get the zealot out. now after the patch this is even more problematic.

My point is, that you're solution forces me to build in a retarded way. Such a wall of will be a big disadvantage because your buildings block the space were your stalkers could be shooting the enemy (probably roaches) on the ramp.
Also you must wall-off before you even know if it is coming or not. So scouting does not really help. -> you are forced to play a certain way just because the opponent is zerg.
Also note that placing the buildings correctly isn't that easy as it sounds.

The only thing I complain about PvZ is 6-pool. Else I would agree. Zerg seems to be the easiest to beat.
I play T. If I don't wall off against zerg I will get crushed by a 6 pool. So get over it.

If you want, you can warp in a pylon to block the last remaining space. Just remember to cancel it in time. It only costs 25 mins for that peace of mind until you can get a zealot and stalker out.
 

HomerX

Member
Mar 2, 2010
184
0
0
I play T. If I don't wall off against zerg I will get crushed by a 6 pool. So get over it.
i really dont get the point of these rush tactics in ladder games...

if the other player has walled off / is able to defend it, its nearly an autolose...

so depending on metagme/ladder/luck you achive probably a 50% win chance... you can be lucky and win like 60-70% and you can probably even reach diamond only with 6-pool every game...

but whats the point?

It doesnt make you a better sc2 player...

i often stop the early aggression of a zerg/terran/protoss and advance to the midgame and suddenly the other player has no chance... he makes silly desicions, has a bad macro etc... and then i realize i have met another of these "i can only play the first 10 min of this game" players that think they are great at this game because the are playing in diamond using a 2gate zealot rush every single game...

if you are playing on a tournament/against another person you are familiar with and you KNOW they are probably making a lot of drones/going for a fe etc then go for your rush... but really... whats the point in ladder matches?
 

xCxStylex

Senior member
Apr 6, 2003
710
0
0
I agree with this, the workers you use to fight are pulled off the harvest line, and losing them can hurt you as much as the zerg's initial set back.

I actually had this happen to me last night, the guy was platinum though, not diamond. By the time I scouted him (1v1 map one with destructible rocks hidden by brush as a 2nd choke to main base, probe was sent after warping in gate, so about 12/13 supply?) the pool was already up. I ended up warping another gateway and a second pylon to completely block the choke.

By the time he destroyed both gateways, I had 4 zealots and a few probes waiting for him, easily fighting him back.

The rest of the game was pretty close. But +3 upgraded colossi > zerg... He went ling/hydra on me the entire game

Your contradicting yourself. The workers you use for fighting the lings are the ones the 6-poolers sacrificed for his 6-pool. Some of them will die. In the end you won't be off much better economically.
And again, if the 6 pooler just runs in the middle of your probes, and does nothing else it's easy to deal with it. but if he micros his lings, gg. Also he will follow up with 6 more and so on.
Show me a rep of such a game were you (or any other person) actually did that against a well-done 6-pool without a wall-off.




IMHO you don't have enough time at least on certain maps to get the zealot out. now after the patch this is even more problematic.

My point is, that you're solution forces me to build in a retarded way. Such a wall of will be a big disadvantage because your buildings block the space were your stalkers could be shooting the enemy (probably roaches) on the ramp.
Also you must wall-off before you even know if it is coming or not. So scouting does not really help. -> you are forced to play a certain way just because the opponent is zerg.
Also note that placing the buildings correctly isn't that easy as it sounds.

The only thing I complain about PvZ is 6-pool. Else I would agree. Zerg seems to be the easiest to beat.
 
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Ika

Lifer
Mar 22, 2006
14,267
3
81
I agree with this, the workers you use to fight are pulled off the harvest line, and losing them can hurt you as much as the zerg's initial set back.

I actually had this happen to me last night, the guy was platinum though, not diamond. By the time I scouted him (1v1 map one with destructible rocks hidden by brush as a 2nd choke to main base, probe was sent after warping in gate, so about 12/13 supply?) the pool was already up. I ended up warping another gateway and a second pylon to completely block the choke.

By the time he destroyed both gateways, I had 4 zealots and a few probes waiting for him, easily fighting him back.

The rest of the game was pretty close. But +3 upgraded colossi > zerg... He went ling/hydra on me the entire game
I don't know about real zerg players, but if I ever saw more than one colossus on the field against me I would reconsider making MORE ling/hydra...
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
I'm like 86-71 now, ranked 2nd in bronze. I'm starting to get bored because any time I try a strategy other than MMM I get my ass kicked by the other guy spamming units. When I do MMM I win 90% of the time.
 

Glitchny

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2002
5,679
0
0
I'm like 86-71 now, ranked 2nd in bronze. I'm starting to get bored because any time I try a strategy other than MMM I get my ass kicked by the other guy spamming units. When I do MMM I win 90% of the time.
try

10depot
12rax
13gas
16OC
@100gas Factory
depot
@factory 1/3rd done 2nd gas
22 depot
@factory 100% -> tech lab
@factory 100% starport
30-31 depot
@starport 100% swap with factory
banshee + cloak after port lands
depot as needed.

win

make marines and scv's the entire time this is going on, by the time your banshee gets to his base cloak will be done and you should have around 10 marines and a couple hellions. Drop more rax or expansion or whatever to counter his build.

should have the banshee's + cloak in his base at 8min mark. Just make sure the starport doesn't get scouted... but in bronze it probably wont matter if it does. If needed pull your banshees back to defend and switch tech if you have to.

Against toss that forgo the observer this works amazingly well, really only hard time vs smart terran.

I had a zerg player last night on kulas who couldn't scout past my wall so he assumed I was going reapers, made roaches. Banshee's showed up at 8min and he just said "Holy shit that was fast" and GG'd.

If you micro the banshee's well you can get ahead in econ very easily and switch tech if needed.
 
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Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
I will give that a try.

How long do I need to wait to move up to silver? I'm ranked #1 now and won 12 of my last 15
 

Praxis1452

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,197
0
0
I will give that a try.

How long do I need to wait to move up to silver? I'm ranked #1 now and won 12 of my last 15
Keep winning. Once you lose a few, it'll put you in a spot where it thinks you'll be good.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
28,243
3,659
126
I don't know about real zerg players, but if I ever saw more than one colossus on the field against me I would reconsider making MORE ling/hydra...
lol this. corruptors or mutas would work great. not sure about infestors (neural parasite range got nerfed i think?)
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
4,818
1,205
136
So Zerg is usually not a problem unless they choose a strategy that will hamper your play style. If they don't put a wrench in your plans and put you out of your building comfort zone, then you can roll them pretty easily... sounds like balance to me. You seem to be complaining that you can play your way and stomp the Zerg.

Successful SC2 games seem to be constantly out-thinking your opponent or putting him out of his comfort zone, messing up his plans to force him to make new ones.
The issue is that it is not a strategy it's a general thread. Defending vs. 6-pool needs precautions before you actually scout it.


I play T. If I don't wall off against zerg I will get crushed by a 6 pool. So get over it.

If you want, you can warp in a pylon to block the last remaining space. Just remember to cancel it in time. It only costs 25 mins for that peace of mind until you can get a zealot and stalker out.
As T you normally wall of anyway plus it has no negative side-effects (destroying at least one building later).
6-pool lings are always in Base before the first zealot is out even with chrono on a normal build on most maps. This will only get worse now. We will see 6-pool much more often in PvZ.


so depending on metagme/ladder/luck you achieve probably a 50% win chance... you can be lucky and win like 60-70% and you can probably even reach diamond only with 6-pool every game...

but whats the point?

It doesn't make you a better sc2 player...
That's what makes it annoying. The sole purpose of the strategy is either to "troll/annoy" your opponents on purpose or to get into a higher league than you ever could without it.
 

bhanson

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2004
1,749
0
71
I just tried to figure out the 6 pool timings.

Standard 6-pool on Steppes of War the 6 zerglings made it up the ramp at 2:44.

(Sloppy) Standard Protoss opening the Zealot wall completed at 3:06. I'd imagine this can be done a little under 3:00 since I was slow on the pylon/gate and only used 1 chronoboost for the Zealot. 15 seconds doesn't seem too bad to stall and then once you kill those 6 Zerglings you win.

If you scout after pylon and see a 6 pool just throw your second pylon to wall and that will easily buy enough time to get the Zealot out, I think.
 

HomerX

Member
Mar 2, 2010
184
0
0
The Problem with fast Banshees against a Zerg is that queens are gaining more and more popularity...

a while ago i started using a fe + mass queen build in order to develop a great eco while still being able to defend the early pushes...

the good thing is that these queens are also great against early air harassement... yesterday a protoss tryed a fast VR because he has scouted a fast fe with no fast lair... when his 2 VR arrived 5 queens were waiting there :)

by the time your banshees arrive, i will have a lair and probably an overseer... if i forgot to build the overseer you have ~15 seconds of free time to kill a few drones... killing the queens is impossible because of transfusion and after the overseer pops the banshees get stomped...

i have seen some pros (dimaga, fruitseller) using mass queens in some games in the last few days and if the metagame for zerg switches to mass queens (which it should! really its THAT good!) any sort of early air attack will fail against zerg...
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
4,818
1,205
136
I just tried to figure out the 6 pool timings.

Standard 6-pool on Steppes of War the 6 zerglings made it up the ramp at 2:44.

(Sloppy) Standard Protoss opening the Zealot wall completed at 3:06. I'd imagine this can be done a little under 3:00 since I was slow on the pylon/gate and only used 1 chronoboost for the Zealot. 15 seconds doesn't seem too bad to stall and then once you kill those 6 Zerglings you win.

If you scout after pylon and see a 6 pool just throw your second pylon to wall and that will easily buy enough time to get the Zealot out, I think.
Stall? Don't get what you mean. Move away probes from mining for 15 sec?
Your economic advantage will be marginal at best.
 

imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
So i finally, after about a hundred games, got my queen/larva macro right. I had no idea you could click the minimap to inject larva. rofl

That makes it a ton easier, considering most games i play no one expands past 2 bases before its game over.
 
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