***OFFICIAL*** Ryzen 5000 / Zen 3 Launch Thread REVIEWS BEGIN PAGE 39

[scannall]

My thoughts on the price increase. It's OK. Currently AMD's NET margins are roughly 9%. While it's certainly better than bleeding cash like is was pre-2017, it still isn't great. No real cushion for unforeseen disasters. It doesn't need to be nearly as high as Intel's roughly 30%. But getting into the Apple/Google range of low 20's would ensure more R&D and a bit of breathing room.

 

[coercitiv]

so it's for enthusiasts not peasants

things are heating up, charcoal level... one-two more of these and the sprinklers may go off.

 

[CHADBOGA]

I'm very surprised that AMD didn't raise the speed of the 1:1 Infinity Fabric for memory and that this remains the same as is the case with Zen 2.

It does make their IPC improvements all the more impressive and takes away a reason to buy new ram, if you already have fastish DDR4.

 

[nicalandia]

Only naive people forgetting that Top of The Line CPUs are not budget friendly and Intel Fans are complaining about a price increase. Amd IPC increase from Gen1 to Gen3 Zen net you nearly 40% performance increase while keeping the price of top 8 core CPU less than $500... Mean while Intel was charging an Arm and a Leg for 6 core CPUs from Sandy Bridge to Skylake and their total net IPC gain was like 20% IPC. LOL Yeah Keep calling AMD a Price Tyrant and just another Intel and Nvidia it will show us all how ungrateful you are

 

[inf64]

I'm very surprised that AMD didn't raise the speed of the 1:1 Infinity Fabric for memory and that this remains the same as is the case with Zen 2.

It does make their IPC improvements all the more impressive and takes away a reason to buy new ram, if you already have fastish DDR4.

I think that might have incurred power draw penalty. Maybe they plan it for Zen4 as it goes to 5nm, who knows.

 

[moinmoin]

I think that might have incurred power draw penalty. Maybe they plan it for Zen4 as it goes to 5nm, who knows.

Actually with Renoir unlocked/asynchronous IF is used to save power. But if with the 5000 series IF is still locked to fixed 1:1 and 1:2 ratios that's a big sign that the IOD is indeed the same as the 3000 series.

 

[Zucker2k]

I look forward to tests done at 1080ps with RTX 3090, that should be enough of GPU grunt to show how much better Zen3 is against CometLake.

So you truly believe AMD couldn't lay their hands on a 3090, with PCIE4 support, no less? I mean, every single bit counts here, no?

 

[nicalandia]

I think that might have incurred power draw penalty. Maybe they plan it for Zen4 as it goes to 5nm, who knows.

Zen 4 is On Track and on 5nm... and we all win since it's another double digit IPC improvement

 

[Markfw]

Do you disagree that there are outliers in AMD's gaming benchmark comparison?

Where do you get 300MHz all core OC on Matisse? And while the headroom is there for memory OC, you got to admit that on Intel the headroom is much higher on the memory front. Overclocked thermals are still manageable with gaming workloads on Intel 14nm.

In the first place, Ryzen 2 gets massive (or large) increases in gaming speed due to higher speed memory and and lower latency. Intel does gets gains from the same thing, but not NEARLY as much % wise. Lets wait for independant gaming benchmarks, but the writing is on the wall. Intels dominence in gaming is OVER. Get used to it (for now)

 

[inf64]

So you truly believe AMD couldn't lay their hands on a 3090, with PCIE4 support, no less? I mean, every single bit counts here, no?

As explained by user Kuiva maa here, the difference will be very pronounced in lower thread count games. Better GPU will only emphasize that. As per official info in the slides AMD conducted the tests on Sept 23rd while the RTX 3090 was releasing worldwide on September 24th. I seriosuly doubt AMD was able to get one in time for the testing. It doesn't matter, reviewers have plenty of time to test Zen3 with RTX 3090

 

[Gideon]

Does the video have a summary graph?

Just dismissing custom timings on Zen 2 is totally bad faith, there is enough evidence in that video to prove your "only 720p improves" statement as flat out wrong:

Spoiler: relevant screenshots from the video

These are not superficial gains. Just using custom timings (@ DDR4 3800 FCLK 1900 mind you) can improve FPS by 8%-10% in some titles.

It is true that Intel can reach higher memory speeds but Computerbase had benchmarks that showed that all-in-all Intel benefited less from ultra-tuned >4000Mhz DDR4 with custom timings than AMD did from corresponding 3600-3800 Mhz + Custom Timings.

And two additional points:

1. You have no idea whether AMDs FCLK or memory scaling has improved (perhaps they can also run at say FCLK 2000-2133 now)
2. As @Kuiva maa stated, BF V really downclocks Zen 2 (to around 4.1 Ghz). If the PBO implementation is better, it might very well help Ryzen in such heavily threaded benchmarks as well. Meaning such all-core OC might help Ryzen as well

 

[Hans Gruber]

Did anybody hear what the sweet spot of memory speeds will be for Zen3. I know they tested using 3600mhz but what is the max speed supported by the memory controller.

 

[nicalandia]

In the first place, Ryzen 2 gets massive (or large) increases in gaming speed due to higher speed memory and and lower latency. Intel does gets gains from the same thing, but not NEARLY as much % wise. Lets wait for independant gaming benchmarks, but the writing is on the wall. Intels dominence in gaming is OVER. Get used to it (for now)

I agree with that

 

[nicalandia]

Did anybody hear what the sweet spot of memory speeds will be for Zen3. I know they tested using 3600mhz but what is the max speed supported by the memory controller.

They are using the same 12nm IO so it's going to be the same range

 

[Zucker2k]

Just dismissing custom timings on Zen 2 is totally bad faith, there is enough evidence in that video to prove your "only 720p improves" statement as flat out wrong:

Spoiler: relevant screenshots from the video

These are not superficial gains. Just using custom timings (@ DDR4 3800 FCLK 1900 mind you) can improve FPS by 8%-10% in some titles.

With the reduced CCX latencies in Zen 3 are you sure we're going to see similar improvements with RAM tuning as above?

 

[Markfw]

With the reduced CCX latencies in Zen 3 are you sure we're going to see similar improvements with RAM tuning as above?

The ram latency is a problem/speedup for Zen 2. I think everyone here knows that with lower latency on Zen 3, it may be totally irrelevant.

 

[Carfax83]

The ram latency is a problem/speedup for Zen 2. I think everyone here knows that with lower latency on Zen 3, it may be totally irrelevant.

I don't know about that. Intel CPUs have their memory controller on the same die as the CPU cores, and they still benefit from tighter timings. No reason to believe that tighter timings would be irrelevant for Zen 3. I would say that it likely won't gain as much as Zen 2 though for sure due to the increased efficacy of the L3 cache.

 

[lobz]

With the reduced CCX latencies in Zen 3 are you sure we're going to see similar improvements with RAM tuning as above?

Very little to none in cases where the 16-32 MB range eliminates that bottleneck, and similar improvements in cases where that doesn't help. Just going by common sense, of course, I can't know for sure (just like nobody else here can).

 

[lobz]

I don't know about that. Intel CPUs have their memory controller on the same die as the CPU cores, and they still benefit from tighter timings. No reason to believe that tighter timings would be irrelevant for Zen 3. I would say that it likely won't gain as much as Zen 2 though for sure due to the increased efficacy of the L3 cache.

That's because they have a WAAAAY smaller L3.

 

[Markfw]

I don't know about that. Intel CPUs have their memory controller on the same die as the CPU cores, and they still benefit from tighter timings. No reason to believe that tighter timings would be irrelevant for Zen 3. I would say that it likely won't gain as much as Zen 2 though for sure due to the increased efficacy of the L3 cache.

Maybe that was worded too strongly. Yes, I bet they are better on Zen 2, Zen 3, and all recent Intel, but the only one that has massive gains in actual speedup is Zen 2, I think we are agreeing.

 

[Grooveriding]

I would prefer to pay as little as possible for everthing if I could, but.. Nvidia doubled prices, literally, from $700 to $1400, for the performance crown pedigree. These prices are not that bad, what does Intel have for $400 compared to the 5900x?

Actually, I wonder if we will finally see Intel have to really cut prices once Zen 3 launches?

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

They are using the same 12nm IO so it's going to be the same range

Where did hear/see/read that?

I was just about to ask about the IF

 

[Carfax83]

That's because they have a WAAAAY smaller L3.

Good point, but Intel also has had much lower overall RAM latency than AMD due to the ODMC so they didn't need such a large L3 cache to offset the latency penalty of having the I/O controller not directly attached to the CPU.

Also I'm sure their monolithic architecture helped as well to keep latencies down.

 

[nicalandia]

I would prefer to pay as little as possible for everthing if I could, but.. Nvidia doubled prices, literally, from $700 to $1400, for the performance crown pedigree. These prices are not that bad, what does Intel have for $400 compared to the 5900x?

Actually, I wonder if we will finally see Intel have to really cut prices once Zen 3 launches?

Perhaps they will, they did with their UHEDT CPUs when Zen 2 ThreadRippers were really ripping them a new one...

 

[Kuiva maa]

Only naive people forgetting that Top of The Line CPUs are not budget friendly and Intel Fans are complaining about a price increase. Amd IPC increase from Gen1 to Gen3 Zen net you nearly 40% performance increase while keeping the price of top 8 core CPU less than $500... Mean while Intel was charging an Arm and a Leg for 6 core CPUs from Sandy Bridge to Skylake and their total net IPC gain was like 20% IPC. LOL Yeah Keep calling AMD a Price Tyrant and just another Intel and Nvidia it will show us all how ungrateful you are

I think it is the 5600X and 5800X that caused the pushback. I expect 5600/5700X to fix that.