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Official Modern Warfare 2 thread

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Using the weapon data here: http://www.modernwarfare2forum.com/modern-warfare-2-game-guides/1300-weapon-stats-chart.html

I've calculated the "take-down" time for SMGs, AR's, and LMG's with and without Stopping Power (where SP adds 0.4 damage). Assuming none of your shots miss and are at "close" range (using the max damage value for each weapon), and do not receive a damage multiplier (such as a shot to the head, neck, etc), here are the top 5 weapons (Weapon (normal / with stopping power)):

1. MP5K (0.1467 / 0.0733)
2. TAR-21 and L86 LW (0.1655 / 0.0828)
3. AK-47 (0.1893 / 0.0946)
4. RPD (0.1914 / 0.0957)
5. AUG HBAR (0.1945 / 0.0972)

The worst weapon is the FAMAS without Stopping Power (0.2804), but with SP it moves closer toward the middle. With Stopping Power, the worst weapon is the MG4 (0.1655).

Remember these are just numbers and don't really account for any style of play (well, actually they're naturally going to favor CQB). For instance, the FAMAS looks like it blows, but if you're using it you're probably trying to avoid CQB (at least you should be) and trying to take down enemies from a distance.

Since battles at a distance rarely result in all shots landing, recoil is much more of a factor and damage/RPM much less so (unless either is coupled with a relatively accurate gun, in which case it will dominate).

Food for thought.

PS - By my numbers, the P90 is officially junk 😉 (0.1959 / 0.1306)

Good info, but as mentioned it doesn't hold much sway on the overall way the game plays. Sure the MP5 does the most damage but if they're more than 20 feet away you're probably not hitting them very often! :awe:

For all around rating of how balanced the guns are you need to look at close and far damage, accuracy over distance, recoil (the ACR has al most none, you can go full auto across the Wasteland map and do alright), etc.
 
Good info, but as mentioned it doesn't hold much sway on the overall way the game plays.

Depending on how you play the game, it sure can: if you play CQB (which I do), this info is crucial, since recoil and accuracy mean very little (I've been dominating with the TAR like it's no one's business... why? Because its take-down time is very good and its recoil doesn't factor in at short distances).

But like I said, as distance increases, the less important take-down time is, since it's a function of max damage done with no missed shots.

edit - To add to the above, this data helps someone like me (who again tries to stick to CQB as much as possible) make the most of his weapon selection. I want a gun that's a fast finish up close, but if I have options that don't render me completely useless at longer distances, I want to know. The MP5K and, to a lesser degree, the UMP, are useless at medium ranges against almost any AR. The TAR, on the other hand, out-performs most SMG's up close. It's not a good choice for anyone engaging in long-range combat, but it out-performs the SMG's at medium/medium-long distances by a mile, and remains very competitive with the other AR's at this distance, as well. This is a great gun for a guy like me.

That's not to say the TAR is for everyone... but I want a good SMG that doesn't leave me screwed when I'm in a medium range battle. The TAR does both.
 
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BTW, for anyone using the FAL... stopping power = useless. With or without it, 2 bullets are necessary (which can be delivered in 0.1181 seconds). However, it's quite competitive with most other weapons, even when your opponent has SP equipped, thus freeing up Perk 2. Obviously you just need to worry about maximizing its RPM.
 
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Yes, the FN FAL is a 2-3 shot kill whether you have stopping power or not.

Interestingly enough, though, it is also the only non-sniper rifle that can kill with a single headshot. But it can only do that at close range and with stopping power. So if you find yourself making a lot of close-range headshots with the FAL 🙂hmm🙂, that's when stopping power can be useful.

Seriously though it's not useful. Actually, I hate the iron sights on the FAL so much I'm considering playing with it in one of the 3rd person game modes until I unlock the grenade launcher, then using it for my noob tube class until I unlock the better sights.

I love how that chart doesn't show the damage done by the shotguns. Why? Because I bet they are over 100...

I think how shotguns work is like in real life - they have a certain number of pellets that spread out more and more over the distance to a target. In real life, I've heard 00 buckshot described as being like nine .38 caliber rounds all being fired at once. It can still kill at long range if even one pellet hits the target. The closer you are, the more pellets hit, and the more damage is done.

In the game, I don't know precisely how it works, but I do believe it has a number of pellets that do a certain amount of damage each and spread out over a distance. Unlike real life, I believe in Call of Duty (and most games), the pellets simply disappear after a little while. It's not really realistic because it gives shotguns a much shorter range than in reality, but I'm sure it's done for game balance reasons. Same reason you can take a rifle shot to the belly and just hide in a corner for a few seconds until you're all better.
 
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I love how that chart doesn't show the damage done by the shotguns. Why? Because I bet they are over 100...

Probably because their damage is determined by how many rounds hit you. One single "shot" probably hits for very little damage, it's about how many BB's hit you.
 
Yes, the FN FAL is a 2-3 shot kill whether you have stopping power or not.

Interestingly enough, though, it is also the only non-sniper rifle that can kill with a single headshot. But it can only do that at close range and with stopping power. So if you find yourself making a lot of close-range headshots with the FAL 🙂hmm🙂, that's when stopping power can be useful.

Seriously though it's not useful. Actually, I hate the iron sights on the FAL so much I'm considering playing with it in one of the 3rd person game modes until I unlock the grenade launcher, then using it for my noob tube class until I unlock the better sights.

Or you could just grab one off of a dead guy that already has a red dot or EOTech on it.
 
jbourne, I believe your calculations may be off.


example: MP5K

you have listed MP5K (0.1467 / 0.0733) (without SP / with SP) for a "take down" time

60sec/818RPM = 0.073 seconds per bullet.

Without stopping power, at close range, the dmg is 40, you'll need to hit 3 times (to get above 100dmg to kill a full HP target).

So multiply 0.073sec x 3 bullets and you're at 0.22 seconds for a kill

Same concept applies for with stopping power (56 bullet dmg), except now you only need to score 2 bullet hits - that comes out to 0.146 seconds.

This is all considering you're not looking through the sights. If you are, you need to add the "ADS time" from that webpage to obtain your final "take down" time.
 
Probably because their damage is determined by how many rounds hit you. One single "shot" probably hits for very little damage, it's about how many BB's hit you.

If this is so, there is a huge spread for shotguns with short barrels (ie the strongest ones). There is no way, on a scatter shot, you can get a head shot more than 20 yards away. I've been head shot (wearing a helmet and flak vest like normal soldiers) from the bottom of rust while I was standing on the top. The shotguns are complete BS in this game, and everyone knows it. From a distance other than close range a shotgun will not have much of an effect on a body armored target.

Also, FMJ makes no sense, as all bullets issued are jacketed. No war fighter will have anything else, except maybe security forces, who might be issued hollow points.
 
jbourne, I believe your calculations may be off.


example: MP5K

you have listed MP5K (0.1467 / 0.0733) (without SP / with SP) for a "take down" time

60sec/818RPM = 0.073 seconds per bullet.

Without stopping power, at close range, the dmg is 40, you'll need to hit 3 times (to get above 100dmg to kill a full HP target).

So multiply 0.073sec x 3 bullets and you're at 0.22 seconds for a kill

Same concept applies for with stopping power (56 bullet dmg), except now you only need to score 2 bullet hits - that comes out to 0.146 seconds.

This is all considering you're not looking through the sights. If you are, you need to add the "ADS time" from that webpage to obtain your final "take down" time.

His calculation is the time between the first bullet and the last bullet. Presumably there is no delay for the first bullet other than your own input delay.
 
His calculation is the time between the first bullet and the last bullet. Presumably there is no delay for the first bullet other than your own input delay.

Bingo

Here's how I calculated it:

[seconds between bullets] = 60/[RPM]

[bullets required] = 100/[max damage] (rounded up)

[takedown time] = ([bullets required]-1)*[seconds between bullets]

Because there is no delay in firing the first shot, you don't add a delay for the first shot.
 
i'm going on for a bit if anyone's interested.

gamertag = negativInfinity

ps - i don't have a headset so if you don't hear me responding it's because i can't ;-)
 
Depending on how you play the game, it sure can: if you play CQB (which I do), this info is crucial, since recoil and accuracy mean very little (I've been dominating with the TAR like it's no one's business... why? Because its take-down time is very good and its recoil doesn't factor in at short distances).

But like I said, as distance increases, the less important take-down time is, since it's a function of max damage done with no missed shots.

edit - To add to the above, this data helps someone like me (who again tries to stick to CQB as much as possible) make the most of his weapon selection. I want a gun that's a fast finish up close, but if I have options that don't render me completely useless at longer distances, I want to know. The MP5K and, to a lesser degree, the UMP, are useless at medium ranges against almost any AR. The TAR, on the other hand, out-performs most SMG's up close. It's not a good choice for anyone engaging in long-range combat, but it out-performs the SMG's at medium/medium-long distances by a mile, and remains very competitive with the other AR's at this distance, as well. This is a great gun for a guy like me.

That's not to say the TAR is for everyone... but I want a good SMG that doesn't leave me screwed when I'm in a medium range battle. The TAR does both.

This is why the UMP is awesome though. I can do above average in my CQB battles (TAR does get me every now and then) but at range I can still do just as good. The damage stays high and the recoil isn't too bad if you fire in bursts. I usually have the most longshots even while I'm using the UMP.
 
Grrr... I can't download 1.06 - keeps getting stuck at 15% 😡

Also, how do you know what your K/D ratio is? I always hear people talking about it, but the only place I know to see it is in the barracks where it shows your kill and death counts with other stats... none of which are K/D ratio.
 
Grrr... I can't download 1.06 - keeps getting stuck at 15% 😡

Also, how do you know what your K/D ratio is? I always hear people talking about it, but the only place I know to see it is in the barracks where it shows your kill and death counts with other stats... none of which are K/D ratio.

one of the columns in the category that shows kills is K/D
 
I personally am not that big a fan of high RPM guns. Not sure "take down time" is the best way of looking at it. I like the UMP45 because of the high damage.

Interesting fact about the UMP45: Because it does 40-35 damage, it is a nearly ideal weapon for a stealth build. Now, at short range, it does 40 damage, which is 3 hits to kill. Add stopping power and it's a 2-hit kill. But at long range, it's a 3-hit kill regardless of stopping power. If you then add a silencer, nearly all of your shots will be taken at long range since the silencer reduces the cutoff for long range. That means you can use a silenced UMP without stopping power and still get 3-hit kills.

Compare that with the MP5K, which does 40-20 damage. At long range, 20 damage means 5 hits to kill. Even with stopping power it takes 4 hits, and then you don't have cold blooded.

Anyway, the UMP and the FAL are the two guns where stopping power doesn't seem to matter, and that's nice to keep in mind for when you want to use builds that use a different perk 2.

Oh yeah and I finally unlocked the tac knife for the USP. Went with sniper rifle + USP/tac knife, Marathon, Lightweight, Commando, and Painkiller. Went 22-8 the very first time, getting the highest score on my team and winning the game for them despite joining late with them behind. Wow that was fun. Now I can't wait to go stabbing again.
 
If this is so, there is a huge spread for shotguns with short barrels (ie the strongest ones). There is no way, on a scatter shot, you can get a head shot more than 20 yards away. I've been head shot (wearing a helmet and flak vest like normal soldiers) from the bottom of rust while I was standing on the top. The shotguns are complete BS in this game, and everyone knows it. From a distance other than close range a shotgun will not have much of an effect on a body armored target.

Also, FMJ makes no sense, as all bullets issued are jacketed. No war fighter will have anything else, except maybe security forces, who might be issued hollow points.

Overall the shotguns are fine, it's the freaking 1887's that are buggy somehow. You can literally kill someone 60 feet away with 1 shot without aiming at them. It's retarded...as for FMJ they should have made it something like "Steel Core" as you're right, most military ammo is already FMJ'd.

I couldn't sleep last night, so I woke up around 1:30 and hopped on...I gotta say that it was the best streak of games I've had since I started. I'm 100% convinced that as a whole the people in the early morning (midnight and later) and in the middle of the day just aren't as good as the evening crew (overall).

My worst game I went 19-8, my best game I went something like 34-2. My favorite game I once again went with the MP5K, the more I use it the more I like it. It's literally a gun that you have to throw caution to the wind and just go crazy. After a bunch of slower paced games I decided it was time to give it a whirl. I'm currently using Stopping Power instead of Lightweight, Marathon, and Steady Aim. On a game I played with it last night on Invasion I ran out of ammo with it and swapped to my USP .45 and got 4 kills with it before picking up a dead guy's P90. Now I've got FMJ on my pistol...not sure what benefit it is. Wish silencer's unlocked first.

There was one guy I played with for quite a while who I'm sure I infuriated. I could tell he's the kind of guy who's used to doing really well, he had a riot shield and dual 1887's (loads of skill 'eh?). When using the 1887's the riot shield protects the majority of his back. Well, he just couldn't get it right last night. I literally single-handedly shut him down (not sure how, but on a game at Rundown he was 1-7 at one point, 6 of the deaths were from me). And not just then, pretty much every single game. We were never on the same team.

Another great moment was at Terminal using the SCAR-H and a USP .45 backup. We were on the Rangers spawn side and for some reason my entire team (minus me) decided to suddenly all go left towards the escalators. Well, I'm watching the gift shop enterance and decide to go right and check for people, I walk over and there's 4 guys there, 1 right next to the ticket counter and the other 3 in the second glassed-in gift shop. I take out the counter guy point blank with the SCAR and I get 2 of the guys in the shop, run out of ammo so I duck down, swap to the USP, pop up, and get the last guy with my sidearm.

The only downside is that my team as a whole didn't always do so well. On my 19-8 game (the MP5K Favela game) the next highest guy on my team was 6-11...

Still, bundles of fun.
 
Not sure "take down time" is the best way of looking at it. I like the UMP45 because of the high damage.

Now, at short range, it does 40 damage, which is 3 hits to kill. Add stopping power and it's a 2-hit kill. But at long range, it's a 3-hit kill regardless of stopping power.

(TDT = Take-down Time)

Again, whether or not it's the best way of looking at it depends on your strategy. If your strategy is short/medium-range combat, the UMP simply isn't your best option (unless you can't manage the recoil of the MP5K or the TAR, in which case the UMP is an excellent choice, because it's not far behind those two and has lower recoil).

TDT certainly omits other variables, but those variables are largely irrelevant at short distances in the hands of a semi-descent player (namely, recoil and whether or not the weapon is silenced). It's certainly superior to just looking at it in terms of 'number of bullets' or, worse, 'damage-per-bullet', because those tell even less of the story than TDT (because RPM does play a significant role). What good is a 3-hit kill if it takes "long" to deliver those 3 hits? Suppose you and an opponent are both capable of delivering 3 consecutive shots, your load-outs result in a 3-hit kill, but his weapon has a higher RPM. You are at an irrefutable disadvantage. All else equal (you both see each other and start firing at the same time), he'll take you down every time.

This is why TDT is superior to just looking at the number of bullets needed or the damage-per-bullet, provided the engagement scenario warrants considering TDT (CQB, both players able to deliver the number of consecutive shots required to take each other down, etc).

Again, all of this is really just relevant to CQB and, to a lesser degree, mid-range battles. In these scenarios, a descent player can mitigate whatever recoil disadvantages may exist (such as the TAR and MP5K). But as range increases, this discussion becomes less and less relevant because recoil, accuracy, whether or not the weapon is silenced, and long-range damage play much more significant roles. Here, not only does RPM not help, it can actually be detrimental to an inexperienced trigger finger. Thus, TDT is then a function of an entirely new set of variables.

At short- to medium range, I'll take my TAR up against anyone's UMP, ACR, FAMAS, M16, etc, any day of the week... and win. At these ranges, its recoil is not a factor for me and its combination of high damage/high RPM makes it superior to all but the MP5K, which will beat me every time (again, all else equal). The AK-47, not so much: despite having a very low TDT, I cannot manage it when firing consecutive shots, so it would make a very poor choice (for me).

At longer ranges, the TAR is not a good weapon for me unless I have the drop on the enemy. Then again, my strategy is based on making sure my engagements are at shorter ranges. In both COD4 and MW2, I won't even engage a long-range target in most cases. The likelihood of me taking down my opponent is low, so why waste the bullets and put tracers out for everyone to see. The reason I still elect to use the TAR over the MP5K (on most maps, not all) is that its long-range damage/accuracy gives me options the MP5K doesn't if I'm forced to engage at longer distances. For my style of play, it's the most well-rounded selection.

But in a nutshell, the reason TDT is such a good measure is that it approximates and illustrates the EV (Expected Value) of each weapon under a specific (albeit very common) set of conditions.
 
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(TDT = Take-down Time)But in a nutshell, the reason TDT is such a good measure is that it approximates and illustrates the EV (Expected Value) of each weapon under a specific (albeit very common) set of conditions.

The problem is not a lot of people don't end up in a situation where there is no cover and it is a 1v1 both shooting at same time TDT fight. If you are ending up with a lot of that: you're bad and playing Halo.
 
The problem is not a lot of people don't end up in a situation where there is no cover and it is a 1v1 both shooting at same time TDT fight. If you are ending up with a lot of that: you're bad and playing Halo.

Holy triple-negative Batman! I'm not quite sure what your first sentence is trying to say (don't mean that in a condescending way; I just don't know what you mean).

Regardless, I don't at all agree with the Halo comment: this situation arises ALL THE TIME: you round a corner and *BAM* you're staring a baddie in the face and you both start shooting. In that scenario, TDT is probably the single most critical element outside of your ability to simply point your gun at the guy. CQB players encounter this countless times in a single match. There's nothing "Halo-esque" about that at all.
 
Holy triple-negative Batman! I'm not quite sure what your first sentence is trying to say (don't mean that in a condescending way; I just don't know what you mean).

Rephrase for you:

Very few people find themselves in a situation where it's 1 vs 1 and there is minimal cover.

Both of you have valid points. 75% of the time I kill someone it's not exactly close quarters. But there are certainly times when I round a corner and need a weapon that kills said bad guy as rapidly as possible.
 
Holy triple-negative Batman! I'm not quite sure what your first sentence is trying to say (don't mean that in a condescending way; I just don't know what you mean).

Regardless, I don't at all agree with the Halo comment: this situation arises ALL THE TIME: you round a corner and *BAM* you're staring a baddie in the face and you both start shooting. In that scenario, TDT is probably the single most critical element outside of your ability to simply point your gun at the guy. CQB players encounter this countless times in a single match. There's nothing "Halo-esque" about that at all.

Wow, I should proof read my posts. =)

What I was trying to say was that situation shouldn't arise much in game, and isn't a huge factor. You gave an example of running aroudn a corner and being in a face off. I don't just go running around corners without looking first. The Halo comment is refering to the games overall lack of attempting to be a tactical shooter. Dual shotguns?... Running around like some crazy person with a LMG?... Nothing like that will happen in real life.
 
Rephrase for you:

Very few people find themselves in a situation where it's 1 vs 1 and there is minimal cover.

Both of you have valid points. 75% of the time I kill someone it's not exactly close quarters. But there are certainly times when I round a corner and need a weapon that kills said bad guy as rapidly as possible.

... which is pretty much the problem I'm trying to solve, since this describes the majority of my shootouts. Ideally, I prefer to surprise someone from behind, but it doesn't always work out that way. When it doesn't, a fast take-down is critical.
 
Honestly I think you should focus more on engagement preperation than on the "TDT" of a weapon. If I've got my sights up and I'm ready to engage 95% of the time I'm going to kill the other guy first, it doesn't matter if it takes .5 or .025 seconds to do so...
 
Is it just me or is hardcore mode unplayable? It's like a TDM campfest x1000. I'd rather be pecked to death by a duck than play HC.
 
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