Official Modern Warfare 2 thread

[DrunkenSano]

Wow, I should proof read my posts. =)

What I was trying to say was that situation shouldn't arise much in game, and isn't a huge factor. You gave an example of running aroudn a corner and being in a face off. I don't just go running around corners without looking first. The Halo comment is refering to the games overall lack of attempting to be a tactical shooter. Dual shotguns?... Running around like some crazy person with a LMG?... Nothing like that will happen in real life.

I agree with this, when you round a corner that you aren't sure is safe, don't go running around it and expecting TDT to save you. Crouch, get your aim ready and creep around it. You might even hear footsteps and just wait to get the jump on the guy. That's why I hate the current 1887 Akimbo concept or the lame super speed knifer, that type of run and gun (or run and knife) should have no place in MW2.

 

[Stuxnet]

Honestly I think you should focus more on engagement preperation than on the "TDT" of a weapon. If I've got my sights up and I'm ready to engage 95% of the time I'm going to kill the other guy first, it doesn't matter if it takes .5 or .025 seconds to do so...

Of course you should focus more on creating the most advantageous encounter; that doesn't mean you should ignore other possible advantages just because they're less important, though. Is there something to be gained by ignoring factors like TDT? I never said it was the most important factor in an engagement; in fact, I've plainly said the opposite: TDT is a factor when all else is equal (you and your opponent see one another at the same time and start firing at the same and are capable of delivering n consecutive shots. I've made it clear that it makes assumptions and is only pertitent to certain battlefield scenarios.

Obviously taking your opponent by surprise is not one of those scenarios. Hell, you could use an olive fork for that job if you want.

But in the interest of maximizing my K/D potential given my playing style, I consider everything... right down to the camo on my gun.

 

[Stuxnet]

I agree with this, when you round a corner that you aren't sure is safe, don't go running around it and expecting TDT to save you. Crouch, get your aim ready and creep around it. You might even hear footsteps and just wait to get the jump on the guy. That's why I hate the current 1887 Akimbo concept or the lame super speed knifer, that type of run and gun (or run and knife) should have no place in MW2.

I don't mean to be defensive, but a lot of you are responding to the TDT discussion as if it's been presented as the bottom-line to gameplay, strategy, and weapon selection, when I've gone pretty far out of my way to avoid exactly that.

Remember these words, folks: All. Else. Equal.

When all else is equal, there exists yet another opportunity to get a leg up on your opponent. This discussion of TDT isn't about strategy or the best way to prepare for an encounter.

For people who spend so much time fretting over what perks, killstreaks, and attachments to use, I'm a bit surprised by how quick some are to dismiss what is simply one more piece of intelligence to add to your arsenal.

 

[smackababy]

Of course you should focus more on creating the most advantageous encounter; that doesn't mean you should ignore other possible advantages just because they're less important, though. Is there something to be gained by ignoring factors like TDT? I never said it was the most important factor in an engagement; in fact, I've plainly said the opposite: TDT is a factor when all else is equal (you and your opponent see one another at the same time and start firing at the same and are capable of delivering n consecutive shots. I've made it clear that it makes assumptions and is only pertitent to certain battlefield scenarios.

Obviously taking your opponent by surprise is not one of those scenarios. Hell, you could use an olive fork for that job if you want.

But in the interest of maximizing my K/D potential given my playing style, I consider everything... right down to the camo on my gun.

This information was helpful for my friend when we were playing a CTF game. Being the flag runner, he did a lot more moving than positioning. Giving him the information about the MP5K helped him get more kills than usual. The information can help depending on what you're doing. Generally speaker, this information should almost never come into play if you're playing tactically and not a Halo run and gun play style. A good example is how people who know how to take up a good position can get many kills with any weapon.

As stated, my weapon of choice right now is the ACR until I prestige. It might not have the stopping power of the other guns, but in mid to long range combat, I am more accurate, and thus more deadly, than with any other gun. Plus, the bonus of having a fully auto gun helps if someone manages to get in close range and I need to spray a little. But then again, I also use commando so I can get that knife a little farther / faster than my opponent. The no fall damage doesn't hurt either (see what I did there?).

 

[Stuxnet]

Honestly I think you should focus more on engagement preperation than on the "TDT" of a weapon. If I've got my sights up and I'm ready to engage 95% of the time I'm going to kill the other guy first, it doesn't matter if it takes .5 or .025 seconds to do so...

Since this has started shifting toward strategy, let me ask you this: if you find yourself in a room with multiple targets, does it still not matter if it takes 0.5 or 0.025 seconds to take down a target? I know you're an uber stealthy ninja who knows what's around every corner, but I'm sure you've found yourself caught off-guard by multiple targets, or perhaps you intentionally entered a room with 2 or more...

Tell me TDT "doesn't matter" in those situations.

 

[DrunkenSano]

It is one more piece of intelligence to add to our arsenal but in my opinion, TDT is something I would rank really low on affecting how I choose my main weapon. Mainly because the majority of my engagements require more weight in other departments in TDT, almost to the point where TDT is almost a non-factor so to me, TDT isn't equal to everything else. (Note this opinion is formed with my playstyle)

For example, with TDT, the M-16, FAMAS, Scar-H, ACR aren't even ranked yet to me, they are the most powerful weapons in the game (not counting AK-47 since it is level 70 and Akimbo 1887s because they are the cheese). M-16 and Famas have the ability to drop people with one burst, Scar-H is a brutal weapon (especially when used as a ninja package), and ACR is an amazing weapon due to it's higher rate of fire and insane accuracy. So to me, TDT is almost a non-factor when I try to set up my packages.

Though that doesn't mean TDT has no relevence since other players have different styles, the only thing I'm worried about is it'll lead more people into the 'run and gun' style where TDT comes into play equally to other factors of the game. Now, my posts are in line with my playstyle so I am not saying that the information is useless. Not at all, it is very useful information, just not for me (My style and also because I pretty much play TDM only).

 

[DrunkenSano]

Since this has started shifting toward strategy, let me ask you this: if you find yourself in a room with multiple targets, does it still not matter if it takes 0.5 or 0.025 seconds to take down a target? I know you're an uber stealthy ninja who knows what's around every corner, but I'm sure you've found yourself caught off-guard by multiple targets, or perhaps you intentionally entered a room with 2 or more...

Tell me TDT "doesn't matter" in those situations.

I've been in those situations before and from experience, TDT doesn't matter. I've had a ton more luck with a FAMAS or M-16 clearing those rooms than a MP5K since the time between switching from my first target to the second, my M-16 is ready to shoot again and one burst kills. Now if they see me run in, unless they are bad, I'm dead, TDT or no TDT if I didn't put myself at an advantage with a nade or flashbang..

 

[Stuxnet]

Generally speaker, this information should almost never come into play if you're playing tactically and not a Halo run and gun play style. A good example is how people who know how to take up a good position can get many kills with any weapon.

I disagree. I think you've generalized a bit too much in the first part and you've been a bit too specific in the second. Hear me out:

I play in a very stealth-like manner. I'm on the move constantly, and find myself sneaking up on players who've taken up "good positions". If I have multiple targets, you can certainly bet that this information comes into play. In COD4, the P90 had a remarkable TDT and I absolutely cleaned out rooms of people because of how efficient the gun was for my style. In MW2, the MP5K and TAR fit the same bill. But the longer your TDT is, the more opportunity targets 2 through n have to react to your presence (yes, I know you flashbanged first).

As for being a bit too specific: taking up a position is only one style of play that neglects the circumstances and variables of all others, such as the one I just described. I rarely "take up a good position"... again, I'm on the move. Note that "on the move" != "Halo". If you've taken up such a position, you're obviously gearing up for at-range combat, which I've specifically stated doesn't benefit much, if at all, from this data.

 

[Stuxnet]

It is one more piece of intelligence to add to our arsenal but in my opinion, TDT is something I would rank really low on affecting how I choose my main weapon. Mainly because the majority of my engagements require more weight in other departments in TDT, almost to the point where TDT is almost a non-factor so to me, TDT isn't equal to everything else. (Note this opinion is formed with my playstyle)

For example, with TDT, the M-16, FAMAS, Scar-H, ACR aren't even ranked yet to me, they are the most powerful weapons in the game (not counting AK-47 since it is level 70 and Akimbo 1887s because they are the cheese). M-16 and Famas have the ability to drop people with one burst, Scar-H is a brutal weapon (especially when used as a ninja package), and ACR is an amazing weapon due to it's higher rate of fire and insane accuracy. So to me, TDT is almost a non-factor when I try to set up my packages.

Though that doesn't mean TDT has no relevence since other players have different styles, the only thing I'm worried about is it'll lead more people into the 'run and gun' style where TDT comes into play equally to other factors of the game. Now, my posts are in line with my playstyle so I am not saying that the information is useless. Not at all, it is very useful information, just not for me (My style and also because I pretty much play TDM only).

I totally agree. Every once in awhile I'll change things up and go more "conservative", in which case recoil and accuracy trump everything else. This is why the ACR is the shit at distance Love that gun...

I've been in those situations before and from experience, TDT doesn't matter. I've had a ton more luck with a FAMAS or M-16 clearing those rooms than a MP5K since the time between switching from my first target to the second, my M-16 is ready to shoot again and one burst kills. Now if they see me run in, unless they are bad, I'm dead, TDT or no TDT if I didn't put myself at an advantage with a nade or flashbang..

This I cannot give much weight to, however. The evidence is anecdotal, for starters, and grossly contradicted by the data. When recoil/accuracy are removed from the picture and you're practically at point-blank range, it is impossible to argue that the M16 can hold a candle to the MP5K. Perhaps you've done well with it; that's fantastic (seriously), but your anecdotal experience with it is not enough to suggest it's a viable CQB weapon. I've sniped snipers from across the map with a P90, but that doesn't make it a good long-range weapon.

 

[DrunkenSano]

This I cannot give much weight to, however. The evidence is anecdotal, for starters, and grossly contradicted by the data. When recoil/accuracy are removed from the picture and you're practically at point-blank range, it is impossible to argue that the M16 can hold a candle to the MP5K. Perhaps you've done well with it; that's fantastic (seriously), but your anecdotal experience with it is not enough to suggest it's a viable CQB weapon. I've sniped snipers from across the map with a P90, but that doesn't make it a good long-range weapon.

I misread your situation then, because even if I enter a room with two people, there is still some aiming involved but it's easier. At point blank, I never really taken time to notice the difference between one burst of M-16 with three shots of the MP5K since the situations are rare. Usually in those times I try to knife and hope for one kill.

I am curious, how are you calculating the TDT for M-16 and FAMAS, are you factoring the pause in between the bursts too?

 

[Kabob]

Since this has started shifting toward strategy, let me ask you this: if you find yourself in a room with multiple targets, does it still not matter if it takes 0.5 or 0.025 seconds to take down a target? I know you're an uber stealthy ninja who knows what's around every corner, but I'm sure you've found yourself caught off-guard by multiple targets, or perhaps you intentionally entered a room with 2 or more...

Tell me TDT "doesn't matter" in those situations.

Oh it matters, but not to the level you've presented it. First off, you're assuming I magically entered a room and there's 2 guys there. If you're playing "tactically" you engage the first in your line of sight. If his buddy tries to join in the fight he's got to cross into the line of fire unless he's on a different plane.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when it will make a huge difference. When two or three guys suddenly run into a room you're in, when you are surprised (I never claimed to be an "uber ninja who knows everything"), but the majority of the time it won't matter. I'm not going to use an MP5K for the quick TDT when the majority of my engagements will be longer range.

I think that in most CQB situations TDT isn't the deciding factor, it's target awareness, reaction time, and speed/accuracy of aiming...how fast it slings bullets takes a back seat.

 

[Stuxnet]

I misread your situation then, because even if I enter a room with two people, there is still some aiming involved but it's easier. At point blank, I never really taken time to notice the difference between one burst of M-16 with three shots of the MP5K since the situations are rare. Usually in those times I try to knife and hope for one kill.

I am curious, how are you calculating the TDT for M-16 and FAMAS, are you factoring the pause in between the bursts too?

"Point-blank" was a bad way to put it; I was basically referring encounters in small spaces or encounters where there's negligible distance between you and your target.

As for calc'ing the TDT for the M16 and FAMAS, no, the burst pause is not accounted for because it is not necessary: each requires 3 bullets to kill without stopping power and 2 bullets to kill with stopping power. Thus, the second burst is not necessary under our scenario (all n shots hit your target). Since [n] is always <= 3, you don't use the second burst (when against one opponent).

I'd like to calculate TDT for all weapons under the scenario that your first shot misses, which will certainly generate a different pecking order and which will definitely put the burst-fire rifles at a substantial disadvantage.

 

[Stuxnet]

Oh it matters, but not to the level you've presented it.

And what level would that be? I've deliberately avoided coming to any conclusions as what the consequences of this data are, aside from asserting that it does, in fact, matter at some level. I never said "this should dictate your gun selection" or "this will make a bad player a good player" or anything of the sort. I've just said that I'm confident it can have an impact for a certain type of player in certain situations.

Despite your objections to the relevancy of TDT, I think it's interesting that you and I (who play the game in a virtually identical manner) both gravitated toward the MP5K as our SMG of choice. The most important question becomes WHY? WHY would we select the MP5K over, say, the UMP, without having this data? It's certainly not due to the MP5K's accuracy, recoil, or long-distance damage (which is 15pts lower than the UMP, and is also more manageable at distance). The same holds true to the TAR. I couldn't figure out why I was particular to it until I saw these numbers: the TAR is second only to the MP5K (and tied with the L86, but that is far less mobile).

Odd that all 5 of my classes are TAR's and MP5K's, and you've recently declared the MP5K a killing machine. Sorry, this is not a coincidence. You selected it for its TDT, you just didn't know it . Its close-range damage, RPM, and manageable recoil at this distance translate directly to a very efficient close/medium range weapon. In other words, it has a kick-ass TDT.

This data, which suggests a particular set of weapons for this particular style of play, isn't going to make a bad player average, an average player good, or a good player great. I believe it has the potential to take a proficient CQB player's ratio and give it a slight nudge if they aren't already using the optimum equipment. That's the level to which I'm presenting this, so we're clear .

I promise not to argue this any further, that is, unless you're able to provide some empirical evidence to contradict my data and our experiences which both support it. We can talk all day about how to clear a room, lines of sight, planes, yadda yadda yadda, but that has no bearing on whether or not selecting a weapon with a low TDT is worth any effort or thought. Show me with something tangible and concrete that it's a pointless endeavor... like switching to, say, the Vector and maintaining your K/D ratio .

 

[DivideBYZero]

Yeah so last night I played against someone who hid inside a rock in Afghan for the entire round... he could shoot us but we couldn't shoot him.

Oh and domination is basically a joke now with the javelin glitch

Yep. That's a really annoying one. You can only hope they run out of ammo fast.

 

[DivideBYZero]

TAR with Bling Pro, Deep Impact, HB Sensor and Red dot is my current load out of choice. Just swapped from FMJ to RD to unlock the other add ons, but I'm 94 kills away from getting 1000 kills on this weapon.

 

[GrantMeThePower]

i'm trying to get all the unlocks with the SCAR. I've done it all but the grenade launcher...I just can't seem to kill anyone with it. I dont know why people call it a noob tube...i'm a noob and can't hit shit. lol

 

[sygyzy]

Regardless, I don't at all agree with the Halo comment: this situation arises ALL THE TIME: you round a corner and *BAM* you're staring a baddie in the face and you both start shooting.

When that scenario happens to me, the other guy always rushes and stabs me, something I never consider myself. I lose everytime.

 

[sygyzy]

BTW, for anyone using the FAL... stopping power = useless. With or without it, 2 bullets are necessary (which can be delivered in 0.1181 seconds). However, it's quite competitive with most other weapons, even when your opponent has SP equipped, thus freeing up Perk 2. Obviously you just need to worry about maximizing its RPM.

How do you determine how many shots it takes for a take down, for a particular gun?

 

[Kabob]

Despite your objections to the relevancy of TDT, I think it's interesting that you and I (who play the game in a virtually identical manner) both gravitated toward the MP5K as our SMG of choice. The most important question becomes WHY? WHY would we select the MP5K over, say, the UMP, without having this data? It's certainly not due to the MP5K's accuracy, recoil, or long-distance damage (which is 15pts lower than the UMP, and is also more manageable at distance). The same holds true to the TAR. I couldn't figure out why I was particular to it until I saw these numbers: the TAR is second only to the MP5K (and tied with the L86, but that is far less mobile).

Odd that all 5 of my classes are TAR's and MP5K's, and you've recently declared the MP5K a killing machine. Sorry, this is not a coincidence. You selected it for its TDT, you just didn't know it . Its close-range damage, RPM, and manageable recoil at this distance translate directly to a very efficient close/medium range weapon. In other words, it has a kick-ass TDT.

Incorrect. I choose the MP5K simply because it seemed like it would be the most fun, that is it. Well, that and I didn't like the UMP (although I do just as well with it). I've never used the P90 or Vector (nothing against them, they just seem boring) and the Mini-Uzi still leaves a bad taste in my mouth from Cod 4, it might work great.

like switching to, say, the Vector and maintaining your K/D ratio .

I haven't maintained my ratio by using the MP5K, I've used it as my primary weapon for a grand total of 3 or 4 games, 95&#37; of the games I play I use a SCAR-H, M4A1, or (when I unlock it) ACR with a little RPD/AUG love sprinkled on. I'll say what I've said all along, I like the MP5K because it's fun, not because it's a particularly outstanding weapon (and it sounds freaking sweet when it shoots). I hate the TAR with a firey passion which you say is closest to the MP5K, and I also dislike the L86.

TAR with Bling Pro, Deep Impact, HB Sensor and Red dot is my current load out of choice. Just swapped from FMJ to RD to unlock the other add ons, but I'm 94 kills away from getting 1000 kills on this weapon.

Deep Impact (now FMJ), HB Sensor, and Red Dot? Is that like Bling Super Pro or something or do you mean something other than Deep impact? That's one too many attachments. Despite how nice it is for some weapons to have 2 attachments I still say that as a whole for most classes there's no replacement for Scavenger. I use Marathon on my SMG class just to get places quickly but that's it.

i'm trying to get all the unlocks with the SCAR. I've done it all but the grenade launcher...I just can't seem to kill anyone with it. I dont know why people call it a noob tube...i'm a noob and can't hit shit. lol

My first play through I got mastery for the SCAR-H, M4A1, and ACR. I almost got it for the M16 as well but got fed up, the launcher kills aren't NEARLY as bad as the FMJ penetration kills. For the launcher it just takes some practice, I love the M203. Don't use it as your primary weapon (don't walk around with it ready to fire). Use it for areas where you know someone is camping, for finishing off an injured guy (they usually hide behind cover, M203 in their general area when they're low on health and they usually die), etc.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Deep Impact is a Perk.

 

[smackababy]

I promise not to argue this any further, that is, unless you're able to provide some empirical evidence to contradict my data and our experiences which both support it. We can talk all day about how to clear a room, lines of sight, planes, yadda yadda yadda, but that has no bearing on whether or not selecting a weapon with a low TDT is worth any effort or thought. Show me with something tangible and concrete that it's a pointless endeavor... like switching to, say, the Vector and maintaining your K/D ratio .

I'd say my 13-15 nukes are evidence the ACR is superior (in my hands) than any SMG.

Also, the "three guys rush into a room" scenario doesn't happen to me either. I always have a claymore set up, so at least one dies instantly, and the other is stunned. Plus, unless they are rushing from the back of me, I see them coming and usually have put shots on them before they enter.

But, as you pointed out, in the specific situation you've outlined, this information is very good. Although, I'd like to see some info on the shotguns.

 

[Kabob]

Deep Impact is a Perk.

In CoD 4 it was, it doesn't exist in MW2.

 

[dougp]

Deep Impact is a Perk.

No, it's not - Deep Impact does not exist as a perk in MW2. FMJ is the replacement, as IW felt that DI was a bit OPed in the game when combined with the HBS.

 

[mugs]

Perhaps me meant Stopping Power instead of Deep Impact

 

[Kabob]

Perhaps me meant Stopping Power instead of Deep Impact

Mayhaps.