Am I the only one who think zion is also in the digital world? How else can Neo's ability to destroy the sentinals be explained? An external "hard" connection to the machine world? Unless you're talking about some kick ass wireless connection...which could be possible I guess. But then...how do you explain Smith's external connection? How is that possible? Unless his "human" form is actually a robot...but then that means Neo is also a robot. Which is why I think they are all in the digital world and all this is just some internal struggle between differing program personalities. I could be wrong though.
-FP
-FP
here's a post I put on my own forums after some collaboration and thought. should answer some questions if you got any.
Alright, pretty sure everyone's seen this by now.
Intro to post
First I'd like to say, I've taken in everything the Wachowski brothers have dished out: the Matrix, Matrix Reloaded, Enter the Matrix game, the Animatrix, Matrix Revolutions. I'm also one of those people that read up on just about every philosophical, religious, hypothesis post out there that attempted to describe the trilogy/ attempted to guess what the story behind the story was/ attempted to lay out the plot of what would happen in the Revolutions. And to that respect, I read a great deal of ideas that would have made a great movie.
So my opinion?
Bottom line? It was great, but could have been done better.
My questions
There were just some things in the movie that I couldn't understand why they developed the way they did.
> Neo was trapped in TrainMan's program. The place between the real world and the matrix. Here TrainMan was god. Said so himself. TrainMan works for the Merv (so put by Trinity). Merv wants Neo dead, gathered from the fight scene from Matrix Reloaded. So question is, why not have TrainMan kill Neo in TrainMan's program? He had the chance, certainly instead of partying he could have been killing.
> What exactly was Neo?
All human? Mostly human, party machine? This code that had to be reinserted into the source gives the suggestion that he was part machine, but how? This was never explained.
> The kid. He freed himself from the dang Matrix. Even Neo didn't do that! Yeah he played a part in saving some lives in Zion by opening that gate, but anyone in his spot could have done that. He should have been more important, and probably will be if there is a Matrix 4. So not really a question, just a comment there.
> And another one, explain how the twins from Reloaded can do what they did, phasing out and such dangit.
Questions that I thought you might have, I'll answer
> Question: What was Persephone's part in the whole thing? Possible theories of her being the mother of the matrix and all she gets is a couple lines in Revolutions?
> Answer: Her part was to help the keymaker play his part in Reloaded. That's it. A bit disappointing but that's that.
> Question: Why did the Smith blow up at the end? Who killed him?
> Answer: This one's a bit more detailed then the last. To me if you understand this, you understand the whole idea behind the good/bad off the movie. Choices, decisions, and purpose. Morpheus was right with Neo's purpose: ending the war. Catch that? That's important. Neo's purpose was to end the war. That's what he meant when he said, "I now know what I have to do." So what was that exactly? To end a war, a treaty must be established. Neo understood this so he had to offer the machines something they needed, to destroy their problem: Smith. He didn't understand what all it entailed until he was beaten by Smith however. That is when the Oracle still in the superSmith stated everything that has a beginning has an end. We've seen that quote on posters and up until here we believed that meant the Matrix started it, Revolutions ended it (well, that's what I thought it meant). But it meant, everything, whether a human or program has a purpose, and it is to do it, and then its job is done. Neo's purpose (stated before) was to end the war. What was Smith's famous words to Neo in every Matrix movie? "It is inevitable!" Neo realized that it really was inevitable that the only way Smith could be defeated, is if he died. He did and thus, Smith had no purpose for existing (which was to destroy Neo). Therefore, Smith's purpose ended, he became useless (program without meaning now) and ended. The method of this ending was by the machines now having his code right in their fingered, plugged into them, and terminated the code, which terminated all of the Smiths.
With the Smith's now gone, the program child and program Oracle returned, and Neo became pure Neo again, and his code was reinserted into the source (as was the plan all along).
> Question: So there's no matrix within a matrix? Then how did Smth get in the real world and how is Neo still blowing stuff up?[/b]
> Answer to follow...
> Question: So how did Neo destroy the sentinels/bombs
> Answer: Same reason he was still jacked in without really being jacked in. What's that? He's part code, that code still had a connection to the source. This connection could be described as a pychic connection. This wasn't explained much more than that in the movie.
> Question: So what about the Oracle candy/cookie powerup theory?
> Answer: In case you haven't heard this theory here it is. In the Matrix, the Oracle gave Neo a cookie, and told him everything would be alright after he finished it. It was, Neo became the One (powered up). In reloaded, in the park, the Oracle gives Neo some candy, he eats it, and is powered up for the new fight against the multiple Smiths. Also it was stated by the Oracle that they would win together, therefore suggested the Oracle helps more than just by words. There's the theory, now is it true?
To answer that lets look at Revolutions. The Oracle once again offeres Neo candy, but this time he refuses. So what's that mean? Well, this can be interpreted in two ways:
1) He doesn't beat superSmith, wasn't powered up, enforces this theory.
2) He wasn't meant to beat superSmith, was meant to die and be reinserted into the source. Doesn't enforce the theory.
Personally? I'd like to believe there was candy power up, but the way the plot unfolded it looks like choice 2 from a couple lines up is much more probable.
Alright enough of that for now. Here's what I didn't like from a technical standpoint
> Some more telltell CGI effects that were from Reloaded. Scene, Smith VS Neo, with Neo punching him in the face. Also the DragonballZ type fights.
> The body guards for the entrance to the club sucked. Could have been done worlds better. I was hoping for an equal for the lobby scene from the Matrix here. Not even close. The guys that could walk on the ceiling? SO FAKE. You could tell they were on a track system of some sort being moved along the ceiing upside down. The giveaway? Constant speed. Seriously if they were on the ground they'd be ducting and weaving and what not to fight, I knew I would be. But they just moved in a straight line at constant speed. Make it variable! Also I have no idea how the 3 (Seriph, Morpheus, Trinity) survived that. They just stood there and shot.
Now to things I didn't like about the movie in general
The killing off of Trinity. Ok it HAD to happen, if you had a dead Neo, what would Trinity's purpose be? What would she do? Hang out with the machines? Fly back to Zion? That would have been even more lame. But having her go through all that she had to be killed in a crash? Something should have been thought up better than that. What? I don't know, I'm not the writer.
The ending. Nuff said? Maybe not. Yeah, the little girl program's purpose was to make pretty sunsets/sunrises (whatever it was), useless, should have been deleted by all rights. Gay.
Revolutions was the name, that's supposed to end it right? Nope, the machines are still sucking down energy from people that don't know any better. The real humans are still stuck in a whole in the middle of the earth (now beaten to crap, thanks to the machines) and that's that. Well, crap, how did the matricies 2,3,4, and 5 end? What were their stories. I think there's going to be either a tv series/ cartoon series/ another prequel movie(s) that will explain it down the line so as not to end the matrix franchise with this movie.
That's all I can think of for now.. Feel free to debate. My opinions aren't set in stone.
Alright, pretty sure everyone's seen this by now.
Intro to post
First I'd like to say, I've taken in everything the Wachowski brothers have dished out: the Matrix, Matrix Reloaded, Enter the Matrix game, the Animatrix, Matrix Revolutions. I'm also one of those people that read up on just about every philosophical, religious, hypothesis post out there that attempted to describe the trilogy/ attempted to guess what the story behind the story was/ attempted to lay out the plot of what would happen in the Revolutions. And to that respect, I read a great deal of ideas that would have made a great movie.
So my opinion?
Bottom line? It was great, but could have been done better.
My questions
There were just some things in the movie that I couldn't understand why they developed the way they did.
> Neo was trapped in TrainMan's program. The place between the real world and the matrix. Here TrainMan was god. Said so himself. TrainMan works for the Merv (so put by Trinity). Merv wants Neo dead, gathered from the fight scene from Matrix Reloaded. So question is, why not have TrainMan kill Neo in TrainMan's program? He had the chance, certainly instead of partying he could have been killing.
> What exactly was Neo?
All human? Mostly human, party machine? This code that had to be reinserted into the source gives the suggestion that he was part machine, but how? This was never explained.
> The kid. He freed himself from the dang Matrix. Even Neo didn't do that! Yeah he played a part in saving some lives in Zion by opening that gate, but anyone in his spot could have done that. He should have been more important, and probably will be if there is a Matrix 4. So not really a question, just a comment there.
> And another one, explain how the twins from Reloaded can do what they did, phasing out and such dangit.
Questions that I thought you might have, I'll answer
> Question: What was Persephone's part in the whole thing? Possible theories of her being the mother of the matrix and all she gets is a couple lines in Revolutions?
> Answer: Her part was to help the keymaker play his part in Reloaded. That's it. A bit disappointing but that's that.
> Question: Why did the Smith blow up at the end? Who killed him?
> Answer: This one's a bit more detailed then the last. To me if you understand this, you understand the whole idea behind the good/bad off the movie. Choices, decisions, and purpose. Morpheus was right with Neo's purpose: ending the war. Catch that? That's important. Neo's purpose was to end the war. That's what he meant when he said, "I now know what I have to do." So what was that exactly? To end a war, a treaty must be established. Neo understood this so he had to offer the machines something they needed, to destroy their problem: Smith. He didn't understand what all it entailed until he was beaten by Smith however. That is when the Oracle still in the superSmith stated everything that has a beginning has an end. We've seen that quote on posters and up until here we believed that meant the Matrix started it, Revolutions ended it (well, that's what I thought it meant). But it meant, everything, whether a human or program has a purpose, and it is to do it, and then its job is done. Neo's purpose (stated before) was to end the war. What was Smith's famous words to Neo in every Matrix movie? "It is inevitable!" Neo realized that it really was inevitable that the only way Smith could be defeated, is if he died. He did and thus, Smith had no purpose for existing (which was to destroy Neo). Therefore, Smith's purpose ended, he became useless (program without meaning now) and ended. The method of this ending was by the machines now having his code right in their fingered, plugged into them, and terminated the code, which terminated all of the Smiths.
With the Smith's now gone, the program child and program Oracle returned, and Neo became pure Neo again, and his code was reinserted into the source (as was the plan all along).
> Question: So there's no matrix within a matrix? Then how did Smth get in the real world and how is Neo still blowing stuff up?[/b]
> Answer to follow...
> Question: So how did Neo destroy the sentinels/bombs
> Answer: Same reason he was still jacked in without really being jacked in. What's that? He's part code, that code still had a connection to the source. This connection could be described as a pychic connection. This wasn't explained much more than that in the movie.
> Question: So what about the Oracle candy/cookie powerup theory?
> Answer: In case you haven't heard this theory here it is. In the Matrix, the Oracle gave Neo a cookie, and told him everything would be alright after he finished it. It was, Neo became the One (powered up). In reloaded, in the park, the Oracle gives Neo some candy, he eats it, and is powered up for the new fight against the multiple Smiths. Also it was stated by the Oracle that they would win together, therefore suggested the Oracle helps more than just by words. There's the theory, now is it true?
To answer that lets look at Revolutions. The Oracle once again offeres Neo candy, but this time he refuses. So what's that mean? Well, this can be interpreted in two ways:
1) He doesn't beat superSmith, wasn't powered up, enforces this theory.
2) He wasn't meant to beat superSmith, was meant to die and be reinserted into the source. Doesn't enforce the theory.
Personally? I'd like to believe there was candy power up, but the way the plot unfolded it looks like choice 2 from a couple lines up is much more probable.
Alright enough of that for now. Here's what I didn't like from a technical standpoint
> Some more telltell CGI effects that were from Reloaded. Scene, Smith VS Neo, with Neo punching him in the face. Also the DragonballZ type fights.
> The body guards for the entrance to the club sucked. Could have been done worlds better. I was hoping for an equal for the lobby scene from the Matrix here. Not even close. The guys that could walk on the ceiling? SO FAKE. You could tell they were on a track system of some sort being moved along the ceiing upside down. The giveaway? Constant speed. Seriously if they were on the ground they'd be ducting and weaving and what not to fight, I knew I would be. But they just moved in a straight line at constant speed. Make it variable! Also I have no idea how the 3 (Seriph, Morpheus, Trinity) survived that. They just stood there and shot.
Now to things I didn't like about the movie in general
The killing off of Trinity. Ok it HAD to happen, if you had a dead Neo, what would Trinity's purpose be? What would she do? Hang out with the machines? Fly back to Zion? That would have been even more lame. But having her go through all that she had to be killed in a crash? Something should have been thought up better than that. What? I don't know, I'm not the writer.
The ending. Nuff said? Maybe not. Yeah, the little girl program's purpose was to make pretty sunsets/sunrises (whatever it was), useless, should have been deleted by all rights. Gay.
Revolutions was the name, that's supposed to end it right? Nope, the machines are still sucking down energy from people that don't know any better. The real humans are still stuck in a whole in the middle of the earth (now beaten to crap, thanks to the machines) and that's that. Well, crap, how did the matricies 2,3,4, and 5 end? What were their stories. I think there's going to be either a tv series/ cartoon series/ another prequel movie(s) that will explain it down the line so as not to end the matrix franchise with this movie.
That's all I can think of for now.. Feel free to debate. My opinions aren't set in stone.
I can't remember who said it, but it's an interesting theory about Neo being a program. Just as Smith could d/l himself into Bane, a Neo program could d/l into a human.
Also interesting: the candy....gotta think about that one for a bit.
Just a thought regarding Merov:
It's already been mentioned that he could represent Satan. I can sort of see this for a few reasons.
1.) Satan is always willing to bargain. He'll give you what you want, but only for a price and only if it will benefit him. Merov exhibits this in Revolutions in the club scene.
2.) The red imagery. Yes, I know this is weak, but it's still there in the club scene
3.) He has Persephone (daugher of Zeus and Demeter who was taken by Pluto, God of the underworld, to live with him) at his side.
EDIT: 4.) The fact that the entire club scene was full of erotic scenes with bondage and S&M.
5.) His sheer arrogance and pompous behavior, traits that I would associate with the Devil.
If the idea of him as the Devil stands, then could the train station be a form of the purgatory? I'm probably over analyzing the religious qualities, but just a thought, since no one seems to have figured out the point of the train station scene.
Also interesting: the candy....gotta think about that one for a bit.
Just a thought regarding Merov:
It's already been mentioned that he could represent Satan. I can sort of see this for a few reasons.
1.) Satan is always willing to bargain. He'll give you what you want, but only for a price and only if it will benefit him. Merov exhibits this in Revolutions in the club scene.
2.) The red imagery. Yes, I know this is weak, but it's still there in the club scene
3.) He has Persephone (daugher of Zeus and Demeter who was taken by Pluto, God of the underworld, to live with him) at his side.
EDIT: 4.) The fact that the entire club scene was full of erotic scenes with bondage and S&M.
5.) His sheer arrogance and pompous behavior, traits that I would associate with the Devil.
If the idea of him as the Devil stands, then could the train station be a form of the purgatory? I'm probably over analyzing the religious qualities, but just a thought, since no one seems to have figured out the point of the train station scene.
Well, I covered it, but didn't analyze it. "...Nope, the machines are still sucking down energy from people that don't know any better..."
I suppose you are right though...how is this going to work? obviously the guys in zion want all the people out. the machines really don't want any to leave. there's conflict but yet a said peace between the two. doesn't look like it will work.
Don't worry, I don't think the red imagery is that weak. I think you are right, Merovignian is a combination of Hades/Satan. I thought your analysis is one of the VERY few refreshing, simple takes on the philosophy in a sea of people over-analyzing this movie.
I enjoyed the first matrix, thought the second was ok, and enjoyed this movie.
Yeah, I can't believe I didn't mention the most OBVIOUS clue. Thanks for pointing that out! :beer:
About Mero wanting Neo dead....He wanted the Oracle even more, and could use Neo as a bargaining chip for getting the eyes of the Oracle.
the kid didn't free himself from the matrix. you're probably confusing two animatrix episodes.
they are ghost-like programs. i don't understand why you'd ask a question like this, in light of any number of other questions, i.e. "why can trinity walk on walls" or "why is it possible to jump hundreds of meters". inside the matrix, it seems, anything is possible.
matrix 2-5 ended with only 23 humans left to reinhabit zion. from the looks of it, there were still tens of thousands of humans left this time around. i felt completely satisfied by the ending - in fact, it was somewhat expected. first of all, complete destruction of the machines would have been too far-fetched and completely contrived. also, several parts of reloaded foreshadowed this ending. oracle "i've seen the future neo, and trust me, the only way we can get there is together." neo's conversation w/ the counselor: "so we need machines, and machines need us. is that your point counselor?". the brothers ended the story with balance - the idea that humans and machines can co-exist.
i also disagree with your opinion of the quality of the cgi effects. i thought they were absolutely amazing. you brought up some good points though. i hadn't previously considered the candy/cookie theory - very interesting.
in all, i think the matrix trilogy is a masterpiece. i'm somewhat saddened by the fact that other people didn't enjoy it as much as i did - i really wish that the movies brought as much satisfaction to others, as they did to me.
=|
Sure he did. Quote:
Trinity: "I didn't think self-substantiation was possible"
Neo: "Apparently it is"
substantiation: To give substance to; make real or actual.
just saw it on imax, man - that was awesome.
the matrix series was great. then again there will always be haters, no matter what movie.
now for LOTR: ROTK...in a month. w00t!
GtPrOjEcTX is right; "the kid" did free himself. Neo kept on saying that he had nothing to do with freeing the Kid. Nevertheless, I found the Kid completely annoying in reloaded and revolutions. If only a sentinal or large piece of metal would have killed him....
I suppose the reason why I asked this apart from other questions you proposed is simple: this talent was mutually exclusive to just the twins.
The more I think of this one though, it makes me think of that girl program. She was coded to make pretty skies. I suppose Neo would not be able to do that, same way he couldn't do everything that every program does. I guess I'm talking myself out of my original complaint which was, if these guys could phase, why can't Neo. Answered, it what they were programed to do.
hmm, well i just saw it again and you're right - he did get out by himself. but remember that he wasn't the only one to free himself from the matrix. remember the runner that "ran himself our of the matrix?" although what happened to him was rare, it wasn't an isolated case.
=|
Saw it Friday night on the Imax. Best part was it was on the Imax. Worst part was that it was on.
Bleh, whatever. The best I can say is that it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. All the terrible reviews had me expecting it to be George Lucas bad. It wasn't terrible, but it was nothing special.
The first movie was so good, had so much promise, set up what could have been one of the great sci-fi trilogies of all time. Instead we get these two sequels with nothing but eye-candy and mumo-jumbo.
There's no doubt the action scenes were amazing, but none of them even gave me the same "holy sh!t" feeling as the freeway chase in Reloaded. Instead we get a redux of the lobby shooting in the first movie, guys in Robotech/Aliens CGI outfits shooting at millions of CGI flying squids and Trinity/Neo flying past a bunch of metal thingies. The final fight between Neo & Smith wasn't bad, but once you have people fighting in mid-air you've moved so far past reality that anything and everything seem plausible.
And the ending, so we're pretty much back at exactly where we were before the first movie - all this time & money just so Neo could hit the Rick Berman Reset Button??
The 2nd and third movies should have been an epic struggle between man & machine to free humanity from their pods and re-take the planet. There should have been more time actually IN the Matrix, after all that is the name of the damn movies.
Once again I'm left to wonder how the original movie would have turned out if the Wachowski brothers would have had the blank check & free hand they had on Reloaded & Revolutions. Much like Lucas and the crap since the original trilogy I really think they would have farked it up if they hadn't had all the restrictions that were in place. Half of Spielberg's genius in Jaws was the result of the damn shark not working. Make that movie today and we'd have all kind of CGI shots of the shark preparing to attack. Same thing with Lucas, no telling what kind of CGI sh!t creatures he would have injected into the original trilogy. I can only imagine a vast CGI Ewok army massing in the forest before their non-violent attack on the stormtroopers.
I didn't hate it, I'm just very dissapointed.
Bleh, whatever. The best I can say is that it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. All the terrible reviews had me expecting it to be George Lucas bad. It wasn't terrible, but it was nothing special.
The first movie was so good, had so much promise, set up what could have been one of the great sci-fi trilogies of all time. Instead we get these two sequels with nothing but eye-candy and mumo-jumbo.
There's no doubt the action scenes were amazing, but none of them even gave me the same "holy sh!t" feeling as the freeway chase in Reloaded. Instead we get a redux of the lobby shooting in the first movie, guys in Robotech/Aliens CGI outfits shooting at millions of CGI flying squids and Trinity/Neo flying past a bunch of metal thingies. The final fight between Neo & Smith wasn't bad, but once you have people fighting in mid-air you've moved so far past reality that anything and everything seem plausible.
And the ending, so we're pretty much back at exactly where we were before the first movie - all this time & money just so Neo could hit the Rick Berman Reset Button??
The 2nd and third movies should have been an epic struggle between man & machine to free humanity from their pods and re-take the planet. There should have been more time actually IN the Matrix, after all that is the name of the damn movies.
Once again I'm left to wonder how the original movie would have turned out if the Wachowski brothers would have had the blank check & free hand they had on Reloaded & Revolutions. Much like Lucas and the crap since the original trilogy I really think they would have farked it up if they hadn't had all the restrictions that were in place. Half of Spielberg's genius in Jaws was the result of the damn shark not working. Make that movie today and we'd have all kind of CGI shots of the shark preparing to attack. Same thing with Lucas, no telling what kind of CGI sh!t creatures he would have injected into the original trilogy. I can only imagine a vast CGI Ewok army massing in the forest before their non-violent attack on the stormtroopers.
I didn't hate it, I'm just very dissapointed.
Where was Roy Jones?!? He could of taken care of all those sentinals with his left hook 
I definetly have to see this movie again, theres too many things to grasp just by watching it once.
I definetly have to see this movie again, theres too many things to grasp just by watching it once.
CZroe
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2001
- 24,195
- 857
- 126
Actually, the runner's strong will manifested itself as what would be interpreted as "mind over matter" or "ability to control the Matrix." By reaching this level, the existance of the Matrix became apparant to him as a false reality. I believe the narrartor said he only "became aware of the Matrix through entirely different means"
Saw the movie yesterday.... Not bad, could have been better.
But after Matrix 1, the Matrix movies have a set a VERY high bar for themselves, so its not surprising the movie will feel sub standard....
Spent just $3.00 on the ticket, I love being in India
Well ... just two things.... not rants.
1) just logic hole i noticed...(maybe i didnt understand it fully). Everyone was infected and converted by smith, right? Even the humans, Oracle, everyone.
Now when Neo destroyed smith by letting smith complete his purpose (i.e. Infecting Neo), Smith ended, terminated. But as shown in the movie, the Oracle and the other returned back to normal ...
Can't Neo too return to normal? Smith had to INFECT him, not KILL him. After smith infected Neo, Smith terminated, leaving everyone else back to normality, so why not Neo?
2) Didnt Trinity take a lil too long to die ??
But after Matrix 1, the Matrix movies have a set a VERY high bar for themselves, so its not surprising the movie will feel sub standard....
Spent just $3.00 on the ticket, I love being in India
Well ... just two things.... not rants.
1) just logic hole i noticed...(maybe i didnt understand it fully). Everyone was infected and converted by smith, right? Even the humans, Oracle, everyone.
Now when Neo destroyed smith by letting smith complete his purpose (i.e. Infecting Neo), Smith ended, terminated. But as shown in the movie, the Oracle and the other returned back to normal ...
Can't Neo too return to normal? Smith had to INFECT him, not KILL him. After smith infected Neo, Smith terminated, leaving everyone else back to normality, so why not Neo?
2) Didnt Trinity take a lil too long to die
?? Saw it the other day, I thought it was a great trilogy that made my mind wander. Obviously revolutions stirred up this long conversation, so it has done it's job. Any movie that I think about a day or two after seeing it is good in my book.
Few questions.. What was the whole idea behind the guy laying on the table next to Neo that later blinded him? I assume he was agent smith, but why did he look different? what was the purpose of Neo being blinded and why did he see everything in red/flames? Why does the french dude's chicks always turn on him, the first girl did it in reloaded and then again in revolutions?
Few questions.. What was the whole idea behind the guy laying on the table next to Neo that later blinded him? I assume he was agent smith, but why did he look different? what was the purpose of Neo being blinded and why did he see everything in red/flames? Why does the french dude's chicks always turn on him, the first girl did it in reloaded and then again in revolutions?
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