SarcasticDwarf
Diamond Member
- Jun 8, 2001
- 9,574
- 2
- 76
Your math is what is not lining up. The plane was traveling at over 560mph from what I remember. Do the math.
Your math is what is not lining up. The plane was traveling at over 560mph from what I remember. Do the math.
IMO there are a lot of unanswered questions. I also believe that there is a lot of fuzzyness between what everyone thinks happened and what actually happened. Why there is that fuzzyness? No idea. Is it for national security? Is it conspiracy? who knows... not I.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
ummm simple math... at 530 MPH the plane is moving 8 miles a minute. So that 50 miles was covered in 6 minutes!!!!!!
That last 10 was covered in just over a minute.
Also your idea that "these guys are the apex of the gov. they know when a fighter jet is going to intercept." it bogus.
Norad did not even learn about American 77, the plane that hit the Pentagon. They didn't even know American 77 was 'lost' until 9:34 four minutes before the plane hit the Pentagon. At the time of impact the Langely fighters were still 150 miles away.
It is obvious that the order to shot down planes was given, but no one ever had a chance to shot a plane down because none of the fighters were even close to the planes that hit the Pentagon or WTC.
Why don't you go read the 9-11 report yourself instead of posting more uninformed BS.
That last 10 was covered in just over a minute.
Also your idea that "these guys are the apex of the gov. they know when a fighter jet is going to intercept." it bogus.
Norad did not even learn about American 77, the plane that hit the Pentagon. They didn't even know American 77 was 'lost' until 9:34 four minutes before the plane hit the Pentagon. At the time of impact the Langely fighters were still 150 miles away.
It is obvious that the order to shot down planes was given, but no one ever had a chance to shot a plane down because none of the fighters were even close to the planes that hit the Pentagon or WTC.
Why don't you go read the 9-11 report yourself instead of posting more uninformed BS.
why dont u do this math
According to the official account, an unidentified aircraft that somebody randomly decided was 'Flight 77' (remember, the transponder needed to identify the aircraft had been turned off) then suddenly pops up over Washington DC out of nowhere and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees/minute while descending at 3,500 ft/min, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, 'The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.'" (ABC News, 10/24/2001, also archived at www.cooperativeresearch.org)
then after that nice maneuver, he finds the pentagon and hits it!!! damn.
your forgeting about his "maneuver" just before hitting the pentagon.
tell me about those "blips" that were put on rader for those "games". whose software was that on those rader screens????
SarcasticDwarf
Diamond Member
- Jun 8, 2001
- 9,574
- 2
- 76
Ok, you have now reached the point of being PATHETIC. Why don't you grow a pair of balls and actually admit that you are wrong. We have refuted the claims you are pulling out of your ass and you refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong. Here all you have done is switch from one argument to another. You can't just keep making random claims.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
1. Google Pentagon and click "map" the building is HUGE!!!!!!!!! You don't have to 'find' it because you can't miss it!! It is over a 1000 feet across.
2. What some guys in a control said is meaningless. Of course they thought it was a fighter jet because they had never seen a commercial jet make that type of approach. But google "corkscrew approach" and read about how planes fly into Baghdad using a very tight circular pattern that looks like a corkscrew. Or better yet buy FSX and fly it yourself a few times.
Also... provide a link to back up what you said about how many degrees and how fast it was falling etc. I don't see that any where that I have read.
2. What some guys in a control said is meaningless. Of course they thought it was a fighter jet because they had never seen a commercial jet make that type of approach. But google "corkscrew approach" and read about how planes fly into Baghdad using a very tight circular pattern that looks like a corkscrew. Or better yet buy FSX and fly it yourself a few times.
Also... provide a link to back up what you said about how many degrees and how fast it was falling etc. I don't see that any where that I have read.
a few thoughts...
people SAW the plane fly into the Pentagon - it's not like the crappy cam shot from the parking lot is the only person/thing that saw the plane - an, oh - people were on that plane, talking to the friends/family - how do you explain them?
the twin towers stuff - why bother bringing the building down? if you really think that demo crews/explosives were used to bring down the building - why bother? the planes themselves hitting the towers, and the thousands of people that would have died, collapse or no collapse, would have been plenty to bring us to war. Bringing down the towers, with the HUNDREDS of people that would have to have been involved, would only open up this 'plot' to a much larger group, increasing the risk of it leaking
the whole idea of 9/11 being an inside job is just plain silly - metal/steel do break evenly, models have shown that the amount of fuel burning can cause the destruction seen in the towers that day.
people SAW the plane fly into the Pentagon - it's not like the crappy cam shot from the parking lot is the only person/thing that saw the plane - an, oh - people were on that plane, talking to the friends/family - how do you explain them?
the twin towers stuff - why bother bringing the building down? if you really think that demo crews/explosives were used to bring down the building - why bother? the planes themselves hitting the towers, and the thousands of people that would have died, collapse or no collapse, would have been plenty to bring us to war. Bringing down the towers, with the HUNDREDS of people that would have to have been involved, would only open up this 'plot' to a much larger group, increasing the risk of it leaking
the whole idea of 9/11 being an inside job is just plain silly - metal/steel do break evenly, models have shown that the amount of fuel burning can cause the destruction seen in the towers that day.
you know what's sillier than 9/11 conspiracy threads?
That fact that people even bother to argue with 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
If I start an "Elvis lives" thread would people actually spend time refuting that?
Maybe I should try.....
That fact that people even bother to argue with 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
If I start an "Elvis lives" thread would people actually spend time refuting that?
Maybe I should try.....
Squisher
Lifer
- Aug 17, 2000
- 21,204
- 66
- 91
I hate to break it to you, but that wasn't cut. The beam looks like a weldment of 8 pieces, four courners and four flat plates. Notice how the front plate is bowed in a little. Typical of a shear.
I was a die maker 31 years and spent the last 18 years working as a die repairman in a forge which uses some of the highest tonnage presses in the industry. My job was to come upon scenes like this (mangled metal) in a smaller scale, in an industrial setting, and fix it.
wrong about what??
the only thing u are debunking is hani hanjour being a bad pilot. im guessing u think he was an excellent pilot.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...F937A35756C0A9649C8B63
Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine.
''There was no suspicion as far as evildoing,'' Ms. Ladner said. ''It was more of a very typical instructional concern that 'you really shouldn't be in the air.' ''
Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot.
''I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.''
now for the quote from above again
'The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.'"
hummmm, sounds like some pretty damn good skills if u ask me.
SarcasticDwarf
Diamond Member
- Jun 8, 2001
- 9,574
- 2
- 76
Good god. Ok, Read through the quoted mess above. You completely changed arguments. Again, grow a pair and admit you are WRONG.
ranmaniac
Golden Member
- May 14, 2001
- 1,940
- 0
- 76
For the people who think that their own government aren't willing to kill innocent American citizens for political reasons are living in fantasy land.
Operation Northwoods:
"...This document, titled ?Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba? was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake ?Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,? including ?sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),? faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a ?Remember the Maine? incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage..."
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/n...0010430/northwoods.pdf
Pages 7 through 14 are most disturbing.
Operation Northwoods:
"...This document, titled ?Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba? was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake ?Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,? including ?sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),? faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a ?Remember the Maine? incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage..."
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/n...0010430/northwoods.pdf
Pages 7 through 14 are most disturbing.
whos math isnt lining up?? mine or yours
your quote-
They didn't even know American 77 was 'lost' until 9:34 four minutes before the plane hit the Pentagon
from mineta's testimony. was cheney talking about a stand down order or shoot down order.
MR. ROEMER: So when you arrived at 9:20, how much longer was it before you
overheard the conversation between the young man and the vice president saying, "Does
the order still stand?"
MR. MINETA: Probably about five or six minutes.
MR. ROEMER: So about 9:25 or 9:26. And your inference was that the vice president
snapped his head around and said, "Yes, the order still stands." Why did you infer that that
was a shoot-down?
from hamilton;s questions
MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the
airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and
said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And
when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice
president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped
his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything
to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --
so at 925 or 926 the vice prez states the order still stands. the plane at that point in time was 10 miles out. so, according to your math "ummm simple math... at 530 MPH the plane is moving 8 miles a minute. So that 50 miles was covered in 6 minutes!!!!!!
That last 10 was covered in just over a minute."
this would put the crash time at about 926-927. the official time is "Flight 77 crashed into the western side of the Pentagon in Arlington County, Virginia, just south of Washington, D.C. at 09:37:44 EDT"
something isnt lining up.
here's a pretty good article written by a lawyer.
http://www.journalof911studies...ttingPentagonOn911.pdf
Mineta, Cheney and Athe orders still stand controversy:
Further evidence that Vice President Cheney=s order on 9/11 regarding
Flight 77 was not a shoot-down order, but a stand down order - an order
NOT to shoot the plane down.
This paper examines the controversy regarding American Airlines Flight 77 and the actions of Vice President Richard Cheney on the morning of September 11, 2001, specifically with
regard to the testimony of former Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta before the 9/11 Commission on May 23, 2003. This controversy has emerged and has been heavily debated since the 9/11 truth movement began to critically examine the events of that day. Mineta=s now famous description of events in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center in the White House regarding Cheney have caused much discussion and debate, and have forced the following question:
Whether, on 9/11/01 while in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center of the
White House, (1) certain Executive Orders which Vice President Richard Cheney
acknowledged the existence of, referred to orders to the U.S. military to shoot down
Flight 77 as it approached the Pentagon, or an order for the stand down of the U.S.
military during an attack on the United States; and (2) whether Vice President
Cheney issued said Executive Orders.
The author concludes that the orders referred to in Norman Mineta=s testimony, the now
famous Aorders still stand@ orders, were not orders to shoot down aircraft, but in fact were
stand down orders.
http://www.journalof911studies...ttingPentagonOn911.pdf
Mineta, Cheney and Athe orders still stand controversy:
Further evidence that Vice President Cheney=s order on 9/11 regarding
Flight 77 was not a shoot-down order, but a stand down order - an order
NOT to shoot the plane down.
This paper examines the controversy regarding American Airlines Flight 77 and the actions of Vice President Richard Cheney on the morning of September 11, 2001, specifically with
regard to the testimony of former Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta before the 9/11 Commission on May 23, 2003. This controversy has emerged and has been heavily debated since the 9/11 truth movement began to critically examine the events of that day. Mineta=s now famous description of events in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center in the White House regarding Cheney have caused much discussion and debate, and have forced the following question:
Whether, on 9/11/01 while in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center of the
White House, (1) certain Executive Orders which Vice President Richard Cheney
acknowledged the existence of, referred to orders to the U.S. military to shoot down
Flight 77 as it approached the Pentagon, or an order for the stand down of the U.S.
military during an attack on the United States; and (2) whether Vice President
Cheney issued said Executive Orders.
The author concludes that the orders referred to in Norman Mineta=s testimony, the now
famous Aorders still stand@ orders, were not orders to shoot down aircraft, but in fact were
stand down orders.
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,589
- 5
- 0
And going through military staff college, I provided position papers on Nixon ordering a nuclear strike on CA to justify martial law.
The military tries to generate scenarios for most every immaginable conflict or variation of theories to plan for options. It is up to the political leaders to choose what they want, either more details on (rework) or implimentation or shelve it.
Northwood was one of those items.
holly shit!!! i havent even heard of that one. i think its that whole mentality that right lies in might....the end justifies the means. 9-11 was the means and we are now seeing the end coming into play. especially with the CIA and MOSSAD trying to set up iran with nuclear documents. my opinion, iran is the end. remember bush as already talked about world war 3 in regards to iran.
Ok can everyone agree that we should approach 9/11 from a scientific standpoint. You do not pick a side and try to find evidence to support your conclusion. That is what 9/11 conspiracy people are doing. They conclude that the government did 9/11 and go look for evidence to support that. That is not how this works.
You should take all the evidence, look at what happened, then come to a conclusion. I believe that when you take all the evidence AND history, a few unexplained things do not justify believing the government had any involvement.
This is no different than people who believe in intelligent design. They take the conclusion, God designed everything and try to find evidence to support that position. Instead they should look at the evidence that already exists and extrapolate how things happened.
Anytime you have a conclusion in mind, you can always find evidence to support you. I can find evidence that unicorns exist and it is a cover up if I wanted.
The other thing that is amazing to me, there are SO SO MANY people that have top secret clearances in the government. Many of these people lost family members/friends in the attack. Most of these people take an oath to defend the US. There is no way this secret could be kept. Comparing the Manhattan project to this is not even remotely the same. The atomic bomb was the ultimate weapon. There is no reason to let that secret out. However, the US attacking its own people is something that people would not keep secret. Just look at how much classified information gets leaked......
You should take all the evidence, look at what happened, then come to a conclusion. I believe that when you take all the evidence AND history, a few unexplained things do not justify believing the government had any involvement.
This is no different than people who believe in intelligent design. They take the conclusion, God designed everything and try to find evidence to support that position. Instead they should look at the evidence that already exists and extrapolate how things happened.
Anytime you have a conclusion in mind, you can always find evidence to support you. I can find evidence that unicorns exist and it is a cover up if I wanted.
The other thing that is amazing to me, there are SO SO MANY people that have top secret clearances in the government. Many of these people lost family members/friends in the attack. Most of these people take an oath to defend the US. There is no way this secret could be kept. Comparing the Manhattan project to this is not even remotely the same. The atomic bomb was the ultimate weapon. There is no reason to let that secret out. However, the US attacking its own people is something that people would not keep secret. Just look at how much classified information gets leaked......
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
Do you have ANY proof that a 'stand down' order was given??
Anything at all?
And you keep cutting out this part
Right there Mineta says that he learned later that the 'order' was to shoot down the plane.
Please explain to us where you get the 'stand down order' from?
i posted that snippet from the testimony to show ya that our math is not lining up.
anyway, if u wanna talk about the shoot down or stand down order then we will.
please read this first. its only 18 pages, written by a lawyer. i love how their brains work.....details, details, details!!!! that way we can be on the same page.
http://www.journalof911studies...ttingPentagonOn911.pdf
this is from the conclusion-
Were the orders stand down orders or shoot down orders?
Norman Mineta and General Arnold and the 9/11 Commission all agree that no shoot down
orders were issued prior to the crash of Flight 93 ( that was after the pentagon strike). For the orders still stand commands to
have been shoot down orders, if the Executive Order (either Presidential or Vice-
Presidential) that still stands given prior to 9:20 a.m. was a shoot down order, then,
according to General Arnold, this order did not reach NORAD or the United States Air
Force until after Flight 93 went down in Pennsylvania after 10:00 a.m., a full 45 minutes or
more after it was given. This possibility defies credulity and cannot be believed. In addition,
the no-fly zone order given at 9:45 a.m. is eliminated as out of the timeline for issuance of
the pre-9:20 a.m. order.
The facts prove: that a shoot down order for Flight 77 was not issued prior to the
Pentagon strike at 9:37 a.m., the non-existence of a shoot down order for any aircraft
until after 10:00 a.m, and confirm the following:
That the Vice-President of the United States, Richard Cheney, with full
knowledge of the fact that a hijacked passenger jet airliner was hurtling toward
Washington D.C., with full knowledge of its distance at regular intervals of a
minimum of 50 miles (probably more so because mineta didnt enter until 920) out from the Capitol, in fact not only did not act to
intercept or shoot down the airliner despite the two earlier hijacked planes
hitting the World Trade Center, but issued a direct order to the U.S. Air Force,
either by himself or from the President of the United States, NOT to shoot down
Flight 77 prior to it hitting the Pentagon.
anyway, if u wanna talk about the shoot down or stand down order then we will.
please read this first. its only 18 pages, written by a lawyer. i love how their brains work.....details, details, details!!!! that way we can be on the same page.
http://www.journalof911studies...ttingPentagonOn911.pdf
this is from the conclusion-
Were the orders stand down orders or shoot down orders?
Norman Mineta and General Arnold and the 9/11 Commission all agree that no shoot down
orders were issued prior to the crash of Flight 93 ( that was after the pentagon strike). For the orders still stand commands to
have been shoot down orders, if the Executive Order (either Presidential or Vice-
Presidential) that still stands given prior to 9:20 a.m. was a shoot down order, then,
according to General Arnold, this order did not reach NORAD or the United States Air
Force until after Flight 93 went down in Pennsylvania after 10:00 a.m., a full 45 minutes or
more after it was given. This possibility defies credulity and cannot be believed. In addition,
the no-fly zone order given at 9:45 a.m. is eliminated as out of the timeline for issuance of
the pre-9:20 a.m. order.
The facts prove: that a shoot down order for Flight 77 was not issued prior to the
Pentagon strike at 9:37 a.m., the non-existence of a shoot down order for any aircraft
until after 10:00 a.m, and confirm the following:
That the Vice-President of the United States, Richard Cheney, with full
knowledge of the fact that a hijacked passenger jet airliner was hurtling toward
Washington D.C., with full knowledge of its distance at regular intervals of a
minimum of 50 miles (probably more so because mineta didnt enter until 920) out from the Capitol, in fact not only did not act to
intercept or shoot down the airliner despite the two earlier hijacked planes
hitting the World Trade Center, but issued a direct order to the U.S. Air Force,
either by himself or from the President of the United States, NOT to shoot down
Flight 77 prior to it hitting the Pentagon.
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