***Official*** 2008 Stock Market Thread

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Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Originally posted by: Naustica
I don't like how the drugs are trading. The group as a whole hasn't been trading right since the beginning of the year and it's puzzling. My feeling coming into the year was that the drugs were going to outperform the market as people flee into recession proof stocks like drugs and nondurable consumer goods. So far that thesis has been wrong although it's still early. Drugs feel heavy and act like they want to go lower. Anybody has insight to something I might be missing or not seeing?

I'm liking the action I'm seeing in Etrade. Gonna have keep an eye on it as I see some potential.

Some big pharma companies, I think it was Schering-PLough or something, was reported as having "earning difficulites". That's probably hanging over the entire segment right now.

Still short on financial and consumer discretionary, thats the easiest place to make money right now. The discretionary might bump a bit with the govt handout, but the trend for the year is in.

 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Originally posted by: Naustica
I don't like how the drugs are trading. The group as a whole hasn't been trading right since the beginning of the year and it's puzzling. My feeling coming into the year was that the drugs were going to outperform the market as people flee into recession proof stocks like drugs and nondurable consumer goods. So far that thesis has been wrong although it's still early. Drugs feel heavy and act like they want to go lower. Anybody has insight to something I might be missing or not seeing?

I'm liking the action I'm seeing in Etrade. Gonna have keep an eye on it as I see some potential.

Some big pharma companies, I think it was Schering-PLough or something, was reported as having "earning difficulites". That's probably hanging over the entire segment right now.

Still short on financial and consumer discretionary, thats the easiest place to make money right now. The discretionary might bump a bit with the govt handout, but the trend for the year is in.

I only own Merck right now and currently own it in both long term account and short term trading account. The long term account shares I bought after the Vioxx scandal at around $28 /shr and never sold a share. I don't plan on selling any anytime soon as the dividend was around 5% when I bought, and I'm happy just to collect the dividend checks. I recently purchased some in my short term trading account at $45.50/ shr with a plan to flip it and don't like how it's trading. I know all the news out of Merck is bad right now with the toxic Zetia and Vytorin report and both stocks are under tremendous pressure because of it. I also know Merck just settled the price fixing case with Medicaid. So I know news is bad for both Merck and Schering Plough but it seems pretty much every major drug maker is at or near the 52 week low. PFE, BMY, SNY, GSK, MRK, NVS, AZN, SGP.

Pfizer we know has problems, and I've no interest in it. I know Glaxosmithkline issued disappointing 2008 guidance and stock is down big. My wife wants me to buy it because of the over the counter diet drug Alli. From what I'm reading Glaxo has promising pipeline similar to Merck after the Vioxx so that looks attractive as does the 5% dividend. The other drug makers I'm not too familiar with other than I track the price and movement.

I guess I'm just puzzled with the downward price action on the group as a whole and more of a rant than anything. Price action suggest more downward pressure and I should step aside for now. But I'm just wondering if this is a buying opportunity or a trap. Discipline over conviction I guess. Sorry for the rambling.
 

sniperruff

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
11,644
2
0
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: thirtythree
Yahoo to reject Microsoft bid:

http://biz.yahoo.com/special/release020808.html

"Yahoo?s board feels the offer of $31 per share ?massively undervalues? the company.
...
The Journal source said the company would be unwilling to consider an offer below $40 per share, which would represent a $12 billion increase over Microsoft?s original $44.6 billion bid.
"

:roll:

i think they are full of it. $31 per share is a good deal IMO.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: sniperruff
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: thirtythree
Yahoo to reject Microsoft bid:

http://biz.yahoo.com/special/release020808.html

"Yahoo?s board feels the offer of $31 per share ?massively undervalues? the company.
...
The Journal source said the company would be unwilling to consider an offer below $40 per share, which would represent a $12 billion increase over Microsoft?s original $44.6 billion bid.
"

:roll:
i think they are full of it. $31 per share is a good deal IMO.
Yeah, considering the price per share before the announcement was $18.
 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,591
2
71
Originally posted by: Lothar
Still waiting for BAC to dip to $30...

That implies an 8.53% yield when commitment to the dividend has been reiterated (as opposed to C cutting theirs) and of course when interest rates are trending lower. Recently bouncing strongly off < $33 to 45 would seem at least partly due to that. So, $30 would be surprising even given more write-downs... unless there is a genuine market sell-off.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: Auric
Originally posted by: Lothar
Still waiting for BAC to dip to $30...

That implies an 8.53% yield when commitment to the dividend has been reiterated (as opposed to C cutting theirs) and of course when interest rates are trending lower. Recently bouncing strongly off < $33 to 45 would seem at least partly due to that. So, $30 would be surprising even given more write-downs... unless there is a genuine market sell-off.

It should go lower (in theory at least).
BAC announced that they'll sell preferred shares to investors.

The awarding of more shares on the market place should dilute the current shares.
Of course if the economic stimulus bill and FED rate cuts helps the US avert/skid off a recession, the shares should never get that low.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.c...&ID=8093701&Symbol=BAC

I originally had $35 as my price target but forgot to set a limit order. And of course the day that the stock dropped to the $32 range for like 30mins in opening session was the day the DOW rose by almost 500 from the FED's emergency rate cut.
*Bangs head on wall multiple times*

I don't expect BAC to cut dividend. Unlike most other banks, they don't have a history of doing so.
The fact alone that they even raised dividends last summer when everyone else was fearing recession gives me some confidence in their management.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Sold my 1/2 of my Apple holding at the open. Holding the other half for $135 hopefully. Little over 8% gain in 3 days isn't bad, and I wanted to lock some of it in. In this market, it's best to trade them. I've feeling we're going see rotation again out of betas and into financials again. Forgot to set my limit buy in Citi yesterday at 25.50 so I missed it.

Bought GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) also yesterday. I can't stay away from the drugs. I'm thinking this might be an investment instead of a trade.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: Naustica
Bought GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) also yesterday. I can't stay away from the drugs. I'm thinking this might be an investment instead of a trade.

Interesting...
Well all I can tell you is expect disappointing earning results for the next 12 months.
Their cash cow on the market has been overtaken by Takeda's Actos and many others.
They do have an excellent pipeline compared to many of the others though, so it's good you're looking long term and not short term.

I'd take GSK over PFE any day of the week.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: Naustica
It seems pretty much every major drug maker is at or near the 52 week low. PFE, BMY, SNY, GSK, MRK, NVS, AZN, SGP.

Pfizer we know has problems, and I've no interest in it. I know Glaxosmithkline issued disappointing 2008 guidance and stock is down big. My wife wants me to buy it because of the over the counter diet drug Alli. From what I'm reading Glaxo has promising pipeline similar to Merck after the Vioxx so that looks attractive as does the 5% dividend. The other drug makers I'm not too familiar with other than I track the price and movement.

I guess I'm just puzzled with the downward price action on the group as a whole and more of a rant than anything. Price action suggest more downward pressure and I should step aside for now. But I'm just wondering if this is a buying opportunity or a trap. Discipline over conviction I guess. Sorry for the rambling.

They are at a 52 week low because there hasn't been much drugs approved.
The FDA is being extra careful after the Vioxx scandal and approved less new drugs in 2007 than they've done since 1983.

BMY
They lost their cash cow Plavix after Apotex decided to release generics of it on the market. BMY won the patent dispute but Plavix's sales has never recovered back to the norm levels as before. I know my pharmacy dispenses less Plavix than we did a year ago.

AZN
They don't have a monopoly in the cancer market anymore. They've been beaten to the punch by Roche and many others. Most of their recent Phase III trials have been very disappointing or failed. The FDA has given a generic manufacturer OK on making a generic version of Nexium. Nexium had sales of $5.2 billion in 2007. That's ~20% of AZN's profit.

PFE
Good dividend yield. Unfortunately their phase III pipeline is a complete piece of crap.
Zyrtec had $1.5 billion in sales in 2006 and is now available OTC by J&J and others.
Lipitor will become a generic by 2010.
Viagra will become a generic by 2011. By then you'll even see a Viagra chewing gum made by Wrigley's.
How does Pfizer plan to come up with the $12.7 billion it will lose in Lipitor sales by 2011? Money can't be created from thin air. Money doesn't grow on trees either.
Pfizer?s experimental drugs will not be able to replace it's lost revenue from Zyrtec, Lipitor and Viagra.



SNY, ABT, and anyone else missing I either don't know much about or haven't done an indepth analysis on them.

The only Pharmas worth my investment are NVO(monopoly in insulin market), Roche(monopoly in cancer market), and SGP(based on valuation only and nothing else).


Personally though, I've left most of the big pharmas. I'd recommend some other places in the healthcare sector where there is moolah($$$) to be made.
1.) Express scripts and Medco Health Solutions (health insurance/pharmacy benefit managers)
-Insurance. Need I say more?
2.) Teva, Mylan, and Barr (generic drug manufacturers)
-$150 billion worth of brand name drugs will be going off patent by 2010/2011. What more needs to be said?
3.) Gilead Sciences (biotech)
-I've had this stock for 3 years. Never been disappointed. They still have their HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis monopoly. Excellent drug pipeline too.
4.) Mindray Medical and Covidien (medical equipment)
-Another two of my holdings.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a healthcare sector freak.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: Naustica
Bought GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) also yesterday. I can't stay away from the drugs. I'm thinking this might be an investment instead of a trade.

Interesting...
Well all I can tell you is expect disappointing earning results for the next 12 months.
Their cash cow on the market has been overtaken by Takeda's Actos and many others.
They do have an excellent pipeline compared to many of the others though, so it's good you're looking long term and not short term.

I'd take GSK over PFE any day of the week.

Lower Avandia sales supposedly hurt them and they're battling increased generic drug competition but that's a problem for the industry as a whole. Their weak guidance for 2008 already drove the price down.

From what I've read, GSK is supposed to have the best mid to late stage drug pipeline out of all the major pharm with 34 in Phase III. Lot of drugs are supposed to launch in '09 including Cervarix. Sort of similar to Merck with their robust pipeline after the Vioxx. Their consumer healthcare product is showing strong sales growth and I think it'll only get better as I think the over-the-counter diet pill alli will become blockbuster. I know bunch of women taking that drug and that thing is expensive! With dividend yield at over 5%, I can afford to wait while collecting dividend checks just like I did with Merck after Vioxx.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Originally posted by: Lothar

Personally though, I've left most of the big pharmas. I'd recommend some other places in the healthcare sector where there is moolah($$$) to be made.
1.) Express scripts and Medco Health Solutions (health insurance/pharmacy benefit managers)
-Insurance. Need I say more?
2.) Teva, Mylan, and Barr (generic drug manufacturers)
-$150 billion worth of brand name drugs will be going off patent by 2010/2011. What more needs to be said?
3.) Gilead Sciences (biotech)
-I've had this stock for 3 years. Never been disappointed. They still have their HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis monopoly. Excellent drug pipeline too.
4.) Mindray Medical and Covidien (medical equipment)
-Another two of my holdings.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a healthcare sector freak.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check these out and do some research into them. I've thought about number 2 for some time. Generic market is getting huge and will only get bigger as more blockbuster drugs come off patents.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Punted rest of Apple today. Planning to sell half of my short term Merck position tomorrow if I can get $48 or close. I'm running pretty cash heavy and tight right now.

Interesting action in Goldman the past two sessions. Stock is acting very heavy and sloppy and haven't participated on the two up days. It's almost as if someone knows something bad. I'm going be looking to get short in the name if I see some lift.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Originally posted by: Lothar
Bwahahaha...NVDA stock is down 13%.

Not a surprise. Semis are definitely out of favor right now. Risk/reward is not in favor of holding through earnings on former stars in this climate. Chart shows NVDA clearly broke down earlier this year. NVDA is actually one name I like as I think it's smartly run and reasonably priced for its growth, but I've no interest in the tech sector at the moment.

Sold 1/2 of the Merck shares this morning in the premarket at $48. Very low in exposure now and I'm happy sitting on cash. I'm scanning for opportunities, but not much interest me on the long side at the moment.

Report out that Buffett bought shares in Kraft and GlaxoSmithKline. While Glaxo purchase was tiny and pretty meaningless, Kraft stake is decent sized. Still Buffett endorsement makes me feel better about my recent Glaxo purchase. If it sees decent Buffett effect, I'll likely take the short term gain and sell.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: Naustica
Originally posted by: Lothar
Bwahahaha...NVDA stock is down 13%.

Not a surprise. Semis are definitely out of favor right now. Risk/reward is not in favor of holding through earnings on former stars in this climate. Chart shows NVDA clearly broke down earlier this year. NVDA is actually one name I like as I think it's smartly run and reasonably priced for its growth, but I've no interest in the tech sector at the moment.

Sold 1/2 of the Merck shares this morning in the premarket at $48. Very low in exposure now and I'm happy sitting on cash. I'm scanning for opportunities, but not much interest me on the long side at the moment.

Report out that Buffett bought shares in Kraft and GlaxoSmithKline. While Glaxo purchase was tiny and pretty meaningless, Kraft stake is decent sized. Still Buffett endorsement makes me feel better about my recent Glaxo purchase. If it sees decent Buffett effect, I'll likely take the short term gain and sell.

I'm bearish on pretty much all tech except HPQ and have been for almost the past 2-3 years now.
I refuse to jump into Cisco, Apple, Research in Motion, EMC, VMware, Google and many other crap tech stocks that have either been hyped like hell or don't own a business worth my dime.

Interesting on the Buffett purchase of GSK.
KFT wasn't much of a surprise. Most value investors such as Tom Gayner of Markel Corp and many others already own shares in the company.

I thought Buffett also had a position in Wyeth or did he sell?
I didn't see anything in the article stating he has a stake, which is probably a flaw on their part.
 

ViperVin2

Senior member
Mar 9, 2001
876
0
76
Ugh, I hate analysts and their news fcking with my stock. NVDA drops 16% even though they have a record $1.2 billion in revenue.



 

sniperruff

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
11,644
2
0
Originally posted by: ViperVin2
Ugh, I hate analysts and their news fcking with my stock. NVDA drops 16% even though they have a record $1.2 billion in revenue.

blame it on Bernanke: 'Bernanke Warns of Worsening Economy"

no sh!t sherlock!

 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: sniperruff
Originally posted by: ViperVin2
Ugh, I hate analysts and their news fcking with my stock. NVDA drops 16% even though they have a record $1.2 billion in revenue.

blame it on Bernanke: 'Bernanke Warns of Worsening Economy"

no sh!t sherlock!

NVDA was already down during pre-trading and market open hours well before the Bernanke testimony.

Bernanke gets no blame for this one.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
0
Anyone know why I cant find any reference to Gartmore Morley Stable Value? It is an investment category in my 401 plan. Closed at $21.04 yesterday if that helps.

Thanks
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
I've been thinking about tech sector in general and tech spending. Banks and financial companies have spent huge amounts on IT purchases and upgrades in the recent years. They're one of the leading spenders on IT. With the banks and financial houses having so much financial troubles, they're going to probably go after their IT budget as cost cutting move and delay and postpone purchases and noncritical upgrades. This could seriously hurt everyone especially big enterprise companies. Cisco warned on their recent guidance and I think pretty much everyone in the space will do the same. Ingram Micro just provided mid-quarter update and they lowered their guidance and said things slowed considerably in the past couple weeks. IM is pretty darn big distributor of OEM and IT products so it's a telling sign.

I'm trying to come up with names that could be hurt by this and warn. I think software companies that rely on big deals to close the quarter could be hurt. First name that popped up in my head was Oracle. I remember they were hurt during the 2001 tech spending slowdown. They report in mid March. I need to look at maybe going short or buying put in the name.

Any names you guys can think of might be venerable?
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
What would happen if say MSFT made a similarly unsolicited bid for AMD? Would Intel dare terminate the x86 licensing agreement with AMD if MSFT was the owner?