- Aug 23, 2003
- 25,375
- 142
- 116
We're not talking about donations. You can still take $100,000 of your earnings and blow it on whatever you want. Your taxes are what pay for this program, and you'll be paying those taxes unless you 1) are dead or 2) leave the country.
AreaCode707
Lifer
- Sep 21, 2001
- 18,440
- 101
- 91
Don't rejoice over this too much, glenn. You forget that there are TONS of red voters in a "blue" state like California; farmers that are responsible for a substantial portion of the produce in the US, trying to eke out a living with the crippling state taxes and money flowing out of the state, and overruled in every election by the city folk blue voters.
California should be split into three states, so some portions of the state could vote themselves into oblivion while leaving other portions untouched.
It happens in Washington too. The eastern side of this "blue state" votes vehemently red and strongly resents King and Pierce counties, which flip the vote the moment they are tallied. They vote for ridiculous levels of environmental protection (that cost them nothing and harm them not at all, while the entire burden winds up on the farmers and ranchers) and merrily strip a few layers off the rights of their more independently minded neighbors across the mountains.
Cuda1447
Lifer
- Jul 26, 2002
- 11,757
- 0
- 71
You know what I find really interesting about you jpeyton, you are quite possibly the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen in my life.
At one end of the scale you scream "rights rights rights" for example, the majority pushing their beliefs on the minorities in the gay rights movement. You don't think we should be telling the gays how to live their life. But at the same time, you push your agendas on others and when they simply question its effectiveness, quality etc... you say something as absolute as
"you'll be paying those taxes unless you 1) are dead or 2) leave the country."
First of all, you aren't the ruler of the U.S. In fact, no one is. We make these decisions together, as a country. Even your beloved Obama doesn't have the power to make these decisions on his own, so I think you should get off that power tripping high horse of yours and realize the rest of the country has to be on board with your ideas (which they might be, we will see). Secondly, you are EXTREMELY bitter towards Republicans it seems, something I don't entirely understand. It almost seems like hate. In fact, I think it is hate. I would venture to guess you hate Republicans more than any person here hates gay marriage, Obama or anything else. Why? Simply because they disagree with you? Don't you find that to be amazingly hypocritical?
How many other people cringe when they see this joker post (Dem's and Repub's are welcome to respond).
You see Jpeyton, there is a huge difference between debating a point and disagreeing, which is what most of us do. And pure hatred, bias and trolling (which is exactly what you do).
- Aug 23, 2003
- 25,375
- 142
- 116
That's true. I don't understand how allowing gays to marry would affect the marriage of a non-gay couple. Gays are just a group of people, and as a country we don't deny a group of people rights afforded to others through a majority vote.
If you can't understand the fundamental difference between a civil rights issue like gay marriage and a government service issue like health care, I can't help you.
I'm pretty sure they're on board. Obama was crystal clear on his pursuit of universal health care during the election; he mentioned it in nearly every speech during the campaign. The Democratic party platform stated the same. The country wouldn't have elected Obama and Democratic super-majorities in Congress if they didn't want UHC.
You just now realized that? You must be new to P&N.
Most of the data I have seen (we were right in the middle of learning Epidemiology in med school when Swine Flu broke out) has shown that almost exclusively it was carried by people in Mexico for either Business or Vacation. There was some small amounts of spread near the Rio Grande by migrant workers but almost everything past that has nothing to do with Illegals. Troll elstewhere.
I work in the medical field.
If you guys are upset about your insurance companies allegedly denying treatments, expect a lot more of that to happen if the healthcare system is socialized. In America you can get the latest treatments, you can get almost any prescription drug. You can get MRI's, CT Scan's, with the flick of a doctor's pen (or more likely keystroke). You can get heroic interventions like trauma helicopters going out into the sticks to bring in mangled truck vs. bicyclist victims. In socialized systems, all these things are a lot less common. The drug formularies are small. MRI's require some major documentation provided to the authorities before you can get one; doctors can't just order them. And heroic interventions that the U.S. is known for don't exist in many cases.
If you guys are upset about your insurance companies allegedly denying treatments, expect a lot more of that to happen if the healthcare system is socialized. In America you can get the latest treatments, you can get almost any prescription drug. You can get MRI's, CT Scan's, with the flick of a doctor's pen (or more likely keystroke). You can get heroic interventions like trauma helicopters going out into the sticks to bring in mangled truck vs. bicyclist victims. In socialized systems, all these things are a lot less common. The drug formularies are small. MRI's require some major documentation provided to the authorities before you can get one; doctors can't just order them. And heroic interventions that the U.S. is known for don't exist in many cases.
Let me also say that I've never seen a patient not being treated because they didn't have insurance, and a lot of our patients are uninsured. To make sure they're looked after once they get out, we have social workers arrange outpatient followup as well as prescription coverage for them as well. Anyone here in this country who tells you don't have healthcare is fvcking lying to you.
I am going to be a doctor.
I disagree about almost everything you just said. I could pick each piece apart. Talk about how over used MRI's are. Bring up about how INCREDIBLY wasteful Heroic intervention is. And point out all the little faults you just mentioned. I could, but it is all worthless because you will just continue to ignore the biggest fact.
If you really work in the medical field you already know that we don't have the most expensive system in the world because of speed, great care, and risky all out operations.
It is the most incredibly over expensive fuck up system in the world because it is hugely unorganized and badly put together. That is the problem. Privatized medicine is FOR PROFIT. Period. There concern is maximizing profit.
Making the system run efficiently or making sure everyone gets good care, or insuring doctors are doing proper things all play second fiddle to the almighty profit. We don't try to fix the problems because that would hurt short term profit. Instead we just raise the price and exclude more people. That is the problem with the US healthcare system.
Believe me, if there was another way to fix this problem, I would be all about it because I think in the end UHC will just be another shitty mismanaged gov't program.
EDIT: to address your other post
Yes, they are covered and then they get an ABSURDLY overcharged bill, which they don't pay. Then the hospital recoups the money by increasing the amount procedures cost. Insurance companies fix their loss of revenue by increasing premiums. Another person gets sick and now they can't afford it either and the cycle starts again. Stop being naive.
And please tell me, what is it that you actually do?
Hello there Shux, long time no see. I do change some. I keep getting bigger.
D'oh, it has been ten years.Forgive my ignorance, but my understanding is that Obama's UHC plan is only to cover the uninsured, so those with insurance through their work would stay as is. So it seems like the majority of people would have no difference even with UHC. Wouldn't that make health care still privatized for the most part?
Also with that, why would a company continue to provide insurance if the federal government offers it? I heard something about imposing penalties if a company does not provide health insurance but are able to, whatever that means. But from what I see companies paying for every employee, those fines would have to be HUGE for a company to continue to provide it. I mean a large corporation would rather take a $1 million fine than pay millions per year for health insurance, no?
Also with that, why would a company continue to provide insurance if the federal government offers it? I heard something about imposing penalties if a company does not provide health insurance but are able to, whatever that means. But from what I see companies paying for every employee, those fines would have to be HUGE for a company to continue to provide it. I mean a large corporation would rather take a $1 million fine than pay millions per year for health insurance, no?
Well, I don't have too many facts to throw around, but when I was younger and just out of undergrad, I worked two jobs (Brookstone and CompUSA) and I couldn't afford health care. My girlfriend at the time worked at a coffee shop and Guess (the clothing store) and she also couldn't afford health care.
We both graduated cum laude with dual majors from a tier 2 college, but couldn't find jobs in our field without graduate studies :/
It's not that we didn't want it, but unfortunately couldn't afford it. Now, I'm sure that there are people gaming the system, and I'm sure that there are illegals reaping benefits that they don't deserve; however, I'm willing to bet that most people who don't have health care simply can't afford it. Perhaps they don't understand the benefits, or perhaps the plans they're being offered simply aren't worth it.
My problem with the American health care system is that it's run by firms who are out to make a profit. Generally, I'm pro business, but when it comes to health care, I see profit as a corrupting factor. Patients pay huge deductables, and are denied treatment for serious conditions. Doctor recommendations are ignored by guys working in a cubicle hundreds of miles away because it would cut into a firm's profits.
First off, companies don't supply insurance. The idea behind getting insurance through work is that many people all buying the same coverage get a discount. Kind of like shopping at sam's club; if you buy it in bulk the price per ounce goes down.
So far the idea, BHO has been throwing around isn't really UHC. It is a gov't run insurance program. You pay an affordable rate each year and you have coverage. It is much more affordable because millions of people could be involved. Again, bought in bulk it is much cheaper.
If you have insurance through your employer you know they take out a certain amount of your pay each month to cover your insurance.
fallout man
Golden Member
- Nov 20, 2007
- 1,787
- 0
- 0
You're acting as if when we have socialized healthcare, you'll have to wait 3 weeks to get your viagra prescription filled.
What's the over/under for people who have insurance/pay for medical care vs. getting the same exact treatment as those who can't pay (or walk away from the bill) in emergency situations? I know: those who can't pay eventually end up as bankrupt as the ones who get insurance.
Heroic interventions and helicopter med-evac happens regardless of whether you pay for it, or not. That's the law. A hospital can't deny you care in the US, and it's a good thing. I'm glad to contribute my tax dollars to such efforts. Life is precious, no?
Take a look at any ER across the country, and you'll see that the folks in line are those that seek emergency help because they failed to get routine early prevention through a much cheaper GP. Shit, I've been to the ER many times because I've had a non-life-threatening accident (random cock in ass, followed by falling down stairs). None of the people in the waiting room are there because of a car crash, or a sudden stroke, or a piano falling on their head--such emergency cases are treated with priority regardless of insurance or the ability to pay for the care. You get the "I don't have a GP and I've got a wicked flu" folks at the ER and the hospital and you (through your insurance premiums) pay for these folks' lack of coverage.
Hospitals lose money on treating folks without any insurance. They lose a lot of money. Charging someone $1500 for a treatment doen't make up for providing the same treatment by law to 3 others for $0.
If all four patients contributed $375, the hospital would be breaking even, and everyone would be paying less because they have basic emergency coverage. You can ask me about how those three who didn't pay will be able to pay now, and I'll refer to you to a separate discussion of how the whole "everyone pitch in so that we don't have to pay so much" thread. You're ALREADY paying for these people through your taxes--money wasted is money wasted. Are you upset that paying your current health insurance premium will degrade the level of your healthcare?
If I were to introduce universal healthcare across the nation, I would account for a few things:
-The privately insured are already paying for the uninsured with their premiums. You guys know how the whole car insurance thing works with bad drivers, right? In this case, the poor bad drivers pay NOTHING, because they walk away at the expense of the hospital.
-Hospitals are spending lots of money from their surpluses (which can be used to hire, expand, do more research work) on folks they treat who give $0 back.
-YOU ARE ALREADY PAYING FOR SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE, because you're paying higher taxes and insurance premiums to have competent healthcare in your neighborhood.
A truly "nationally structured" healthcare program will reduce cost to you, and the biggest socialized healthcare program in the world is already here in the US--Medicaid.
EXman
Lifer
- Jul 12, 2001
- 20,079
- 15
- 81
Well I am happy to see that you can be honest about it being a huge shit sandwich!
There are a few points where we disagree and I say you are flat wrong. But rather than taking it point by point I'll just point out the obvious statement that is wrong.
I have 1st hand knowledge of three reasons why that is not correct.
1st reason: I used to work for a canadian company. Guess what people came to our U.S. based part of the company to visit while they were on one of their 4 paid weeks of vacation? Healthcare. Yup they would come down here get a procedure done stop by our place to say hi and see how the Yanks were doin then go home. in 5 years I saw maybe a dozen people I know of in a small company do this. 12 isn't much but that is just the ones that I know of.
2nd reason: My father-in-law needed knee replacement surgery. He is a veteran. He has UHC as a part of DVA. How long did it take to get the MRI? 20 days. How long did it take to get the knee replacement? almost 3 years. They are backlogged and well younger vets get first priority. No kidding they tried to talk him out of it since he was to old late 50's.
3rd reason: My Kiddos are covered by our state run Schip. UHC for poor kids. Since I make alot by thier standards I have to pay for it and it is CHEAP! Guess what you get what you pay for. No doctor will take my kids and if they do they try and diagnose from the phone or give you a 2 minute office visit. Yea I said 2 minutes! Oh and guess what? You have to go through a bureaucracy to get it and you never talk to the same caseworker twice. They treat you as sub-human. They lose your paperwork. They deny paying for benefits and then guess what I have to end up paying the doctors cash due to the bureaucratic scumbags F'ed up as usual. So now the Cheap insurance costs a fortune and the sevice is on par with a post office late in the day. And since they are a government entity you cannot complain. No one cares! Thier jobs are safe! Doctors often get stuck with the bill and refuse to see patients that have our governments UHC for kids. You think you have Shitty service now? You have not seen anything! UHC is the most frustration thing I have ever delt with in my entire life and i'm married!
I am glad to share that with anyone. Really I do not think everyone knows we already have UHC for kids and vets. It sucks. It sucks huge! Remember when dealing with bureaucrats you are going to lose every time. There is no benefit for them to be nice to you. There is no sense of urgency to get you proper care. Good doctors are hard to find. Finding a bureaucrat to care is impossible. You're screwed!
I have a HSA and I have to shop for a good deal on all medical expenses. My care is completely better in every way. Doctors love me cause I pay in cash (A HSA debit card) and I can get discounts.
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