Obama wants to give pay raises for performing teachers

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

One of the complaints is the teachers union is one of the problems in our education system. You ask how can we attract people by paying new people crap? The answer is right now we cant due to union mandates with regards to compensation.

It takes two to tango. Pay scales are negotiated by the administration and by the union.

Until the bond is broken we will continue to pay new teachers crap.

Or until the state allocates more funding for teacher pay and administrations use it to effectively negotiate.

Right, more money is the problem :roll:

What % of the budget do you suggest we need to get to in order to hit this magic number where the union and admin can suddenly start paying based on qualifications instead of years worked?

 

[JSt0rm]

I'd just like to say I've had some horrible teachers. I think the more people that go through the shitty system and come out as a voter are going to be more hostile to this "union". The outlook for them is grim given a long enough time line.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Marlin1975



And that is a example of bag mangment, not the union.

I know of several cases where MGT put someone on paid admin leave and did not touch it for over a year.


Bad MGT/Admin's do not equal super powers by the union.

Just curious. Is there anything a union can do wrong in your world?

Yea but if you have good Admin/MGT then it would be taken care of.


I work AGAINST the union all the time. I am part of MGT in the HR team for the Fed Gov (State Dept). So we don;t have these problems as we take care of them. State Dept does not have as many of these issues as other Departments as we are very proactive for the most part. I have been part of firing someone several times and each time we did it right and their appeal failed.

So I speak of first hand experiance, you?

Strictly 3rd hand from people who work for school districts or other govt union positions. While nothing as extreme as the link I provided. All say it is nearly impossible to fire somebody provided they show up most of the time. Subpar performance, bad attitude, excessive sick days all resulted in having the individual reinstated or never getting that far.

Seems everytime a supervisor starts the paperwork to fire somebody a union rep shows up and it ends rather quickly. My friend who works for a city talks all the time about how his boss doesnt even bother anymore because the few times he tried to fire somebody he had people on his ass so fast it made his head spin.

But it could just be govt as well. I worked for the Feds on a project once and the amount of waste and and cronyism opened my eyes up.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Right, more money is the problem :roll:

What % of the budget do you suggest we need to get to in order to hit this magic number where the union and admin can suddenly start paying based on qualifications instead of years worked?

I'm glad we agree that more money is needed. Administrations already do pay based upon qualifications in addition to years worked, like most jobs in the world. As with every negotiation, if you want to get what you want, you have to give the other side some of what they want. This is exactly what Rhee is working on in DC.

And what percentage of the budget what now? You honestly expect an answer to that? In what state? What school district? What class of teachers? You want a human resources budgetary goal for a nation of 300 million people's school districts from an internet forum?

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Marlin1975



And that is a example of bag mangment, not the union.

I know of several cases where MGT put someone on paid admin leave and did not touch it for over a year.


Bad MGT/Admin's do not equal super powers by the union.

Just curious. Is there anything a union can do wrong in your world?

Yea but if you have good Admin/MGT then it would be taken care of.


I work AGAINST the union all the time. I am part of MGT in the HR team for the Fed Gov (State Dept). So we don;t have these problems as we take care of them. State Dept does not have as many of these issues as other Departments as we are very proactive for the most part. I have been part of firing someone several times and each time we did it right and their appeal failed.

So I speak of first hand experiance, you?

Strictly 3rd hand from people who work for school districts or other govt union positions. While nothing as extreme as the link I provided. All say it is nearly impossible to fire somebody provided they show up most of the time. Subpar performance, bad attitude, excessive sick days all resulted in having the individual reinstated or never getting that far.

Seems everytime a supervisor starts the paperwork to fire somebody a union rep shows up and it ends rather quickly. My friend who works for a city talks all the time about how his boss doesnt even bother anymore because the few times he tried to fire somebody he had people on his ass so fast it made his head spin.

And that backs up what I said. If MGT/Admin did THEIR JOB then this would not be an issue. Sounds like they need to fire the admins and put ones in their place to do the job they were hired for.

If Admin set rules for performance and a teacher doe snot meet them then you follow the rules and if they keep it up you follow the rules until it gets to "fire them" in the rules.

I know what you are saying, and I have seen it as well. But that is a Admin (MGT in my case) problem.

Look at DC. They brought in Wie(sp?) and she is doing her job, unlike the past Admin in her place.

 

[Moonbeam]

Who can judge how well somebody can teach.

Imagine you were like me and actually knew something, say that humanity hates itself and that it is going extinct because of it and needs to counteract the disease to survive but is too chicken to face up to it. Imagine trying to teach anybody that? You have this tremendously wise and great teacher, but nobody who wants to learn.

What I recommend is merit pay for students or a vaccine to cure idiocy.

Well, don't worry that I'm underpaid; I have become vastly rich in chuckles. I have more fun than a mad man in a world full of shrinks.

It's not your fault that you hate yourself, you know.

 

[ayabe]

Agreed, I'm totally onboard with this.

I think they need to up the psychological screening process however, I mean there seems to be a story about some teacher borking her 15 year old student just about every week now.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Agreed, I'm totally onboard with this.

I think they need to up the psychological screening process however, I mean there seems to be a story about some teacher borking her 15 year old student just about every week now.

Well there are about 6.2 million teachers in the US. Even if there was a new teacher borking their 15 year old student each week, that would comprise 0.00083% of all teachers.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Right, more money is the problem :roll:

What % of the budget do you suggest we need to get to in order to hit this magic number where the union and admin can suddenly start paying based on qualifications instead of years worked?

I'm glad we agree that more money is needed. Administrations already do pay based upon qualifications in addition to years worked, like most jobs in the world. As with every negotiation, if you want to get what you want, you have to give the other side some of what they want. This is exactly what Rhee is working on in DC.

And what percentage of the budget what now? You honestly expect an answer to that? In what state? What school district? What class of teachers? You want a human resources budgetary goal for a nation of 300 million people's school districts from an internet forum?

Well if you think education needs more money I assumed you had a ball park figure as a % of state budgets you would want to spend on education. If you dont have the first clue how can you say we arent paying enough?

I dont need a budget breakdown. Just a %. Is 40% of a state budget enough? 50%? More?

 

[KK]

I have no problem with getting rid of bad teachers. But how would you determine a bad teacher from a good teacher, test scores? What if you are teaching in the hood, the test scores for the most part will suck, doesn't mean the teacher sucks, it could means the kids suck. Every year you'd have a whole new staff of teachers in the school. Now a nice area with decent upbringing, the shitty teachers could skate by because the kids would do fairly well on the same tests that the hood schools fail.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Right, more money is the problem :roll:

What % of the budget do you suggest we need to get to in order to hit this magic number where the union and admin can suddenly start paying based on qualifications instead of years worked?

I'm glad we agree that more money is needed. Administrations already do pay based upon qualifications in addition to years worked, like most jobs in the world. As with every negotiation, if you want to get what you want, you have to give the other side some of what they want. This is exactly what Rhee is working on in DC.

And what percentage of the budget what now? You honestly expect an answer to that? In what state? What school district? What class of teachers? You want a human resources budgetary goal for a nation of 300 million people's school districts from an internet forum?

Well if you think education needs more money I assumed you had a ball park figure as a % of state budgets you would want to spend on education. If you dont have the first clue how can you say we arent paying enough?

I dont need a budget breakdown. Just a %. Is 40% of a state budget enough? 50%? More?

I think most schools, not all, have plenty of money. I would cut a lot of Admin positions. It seems like every district has a pile of people doing little and/or supporting someone that does not need support. Of course it makes you look more important if you have someone below you.
Audit the budget a lot. Look at DC where the school district had someone skimming funds for years (millions $$$) and only got caught on a fluke. Find out where EVERY dollar is going and ask why.
Go to year round schools. In a lot of areas this saves a lot of money as the school is being used year round. Districts still have to pay for a school when it is not used. So use it or rent it out to small groups in the summer.

and on and on...
Money does not equal a better student. Good parents and good teachers are what make good students.

 

[JSt0rm]

The principals of these schools probably have a pretty good handle on who is good and who is bad. I mean in all your respected fields you couldn't pick out the retards and emotionally insane?

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
The principals of these schools probably have a pretty good handle on who is good and who is bad. I mean in all your respected fields you couldn't pick out the retards and emotionally insane?

I disagree with that. A lot of them just want their numbers to add up. Like what % of students pass, held back, etc... That is the standard they are held to.

I know one teacher was told to give extra credit as to many of her students were not doing well. This was for Latin, so it was not a easy class to start with.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Genx87
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...0310/pl_politico/19824

Now this is something I can get behind. I wonder how the labor entrenched democrat party will approach this?

I've been both a Democrat and union member all my adult life and I think this is way over-due.
In construction, you either perform or you get run off. Simple as that.

There's no "can't fire him because of his seniority." If you can't do the job you're expected to, you go back to the hall. If you get sent to the hall three times as "unqualified," you have to go to the training center and prove your skills on the equipment before you can be re-dispatched.

I have no issue with merit pay for teachers as long as it's based on actual performance, with some lee-way for those who teach in inner-city schools, or those who are "English challenged." The teachers who have to deal with those kinds of issues should not be held to the same student performance standards as the teachers in the suburbs full of middle-class native English speakers.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Right, more money is the problem :roll:

What % of the budget do you suggest we need to get to in order to hit this magic number where the union and admin can suddenly start paying based on qualifications instead of years worked?

I'm glad we agree that more money is needed. Administrations already do pay based upon qualifications in addition to years worked, like most jobs in the world. As with every negotiation, if you want to get what you want, you have to give the other side some of what they want. This is exactly what Rhee is working on in DC.

And what percentage of the budget what now? You honestly expect an answer to that? In what state? What school district? What class of teachers? You want a human resources budgetary goal for a nation of 300 million people's school districts from an internet forum?

Well if you think education needs more money I assumed you had a ball park figure as a % of state budgets you would want to spend on education. If you dont have the first clue how can you say we arent paying enough?

I dont need a budget breakdown. Just a %. Is 40% of a state budget enough? 50%? More?

I think most schools, not all, have plenty of money. I would cut a lot of Admin positions. It seems like every district has a pile of people doing little and/or supporting someone that does not need support. Of course it makes you look more important if you have someone below you.
Audit the budget a lot. Look at DC where the school district had someone skimming funds for years (millions $$$) and only got caught on a fluke. Find out where EVERY dollar is going and ask why.
Go to year round schools. In a lot of areas this saves a lot of money as the school is being used year round. Districts still have to pay for a school when it is not used. So use it or rent it out to small groups in the summer.

and on and on...
Money does not equal a better student. Good parents and good teachers are what make good students.

I agree

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Well if you think education needs more money I assumed you had a ball park figure as a % of state budgets you would want to spend on education. If you dont have the first clue how can you say we arent paying enough?

I dont need a budget breakdown. Just a %. Is 40% of a state budget enough? 50%? More?

State budgets vary massively as to the percentage that is spent on education. Does reading the yearly operating expenses of your company tell me if you should get a raise or not? I couldn't possibly tell you the answer to what you're asking. I'm not sure anyone could.

The information I've seen puts starting teachers' salaries at around 10% lower (sometimes more) than private sector salaries for the same level of education. Make their salaries competitive. Hell, considering how valuable the service is that they perform, make their salaries out compete the private sector. These people are in charge of the future of our children.

Like I said, negotiations require you to give something to get something, so you'll probably end up giving the older teachers something else to get these salaries up and to install a more meritocratic pay scale. To blame the union for this, considering that the administration crafted the plan right along with them, is silly.

 

[Moonbeam]

We have created a system in which everybody is pretty much a moron who shops. We have destroyed our mental capacity to think rationally so we will buy buy buy. You can't teach trained morons anything. None of you know anything but you can't deal with that so what we get is this babbling on about what we need to do. Not knowing anything, you certainly haven't the faintest idea what to do. You idiots complain about teachers but you can't teach yourself a single thing. Heads full of garbage first need to be emptied. Egos need to explode. You have to die everything you think you know. Good luck. The fool on the hill is standing there still, waiting.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We have created a system in which everybody is pretty much a moron who shops. We have destroyed our mental capacity to think rationally so we will buy buy buy. You can't teach trained morons anything. None of you know anything but you can't deal with that so what we get is this babbling on about what we need to do. Not knowing anything, you certainly haven't the faintest idea what to do. You idiots complain about teachers but you can't teach yourself a single thing. Heads full of garbage first need to be emptied. Egos need to explode. You have to die everything you think you know. Good luck. The fool on the hill is standing there still, waiting.

This is what happens folks when you get off your Lithium meds....for those on it, keep taking it. Don't end up like this poor F'er...

Chuck

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Right, more money is the problem :roll:

What % of the budget do you suggest we need to get to in order to hit this magic number where the union and admin can suddenly start paying based on qualifications instead of years worked?

I'm glad we agree that more money is needed. Administrations already do pay based upon qualifications in addition to years worked, like most jobs in the world. As with every negotiation, if you want to get what you want, you have to give the other side some of what they want. This is exactly what Rhee is working on in DC.

And what percentage of the budget what now? You honestly expect an answer to that? In what state? What school district? What class of teachers? You want a human resources budgetary goal for a nation of 300 million people's school districts from an internet forum?

Well if you think education needs more money I assumed you had a ball park figure as a % of state budgets you would want to spend on education. If you dont have the first clue how can you say we arent paying enough?

I dont need a budget breakdown. Just a %. Is 40% of a state budget enough? 50%? More?

Hey, apparently 7 hour days 3/4 of the year with the benefits of a king isn't enough for the unions. Here in New Jersey, we actually reward the failing districts by tossing more money at places like Trenton and Newark. They spend more money per pupil than successful districts next door.

My local school district wanted and still wants a 6% raise in today's Obama economy.

Zero kept his daughter out of Chicago Public Schools for a reason. They're cesspools of failure.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Hey, apparently 7 hour days 3/4 of the year with the benefits of a king isn't enough for the unions. Here in New Jersey, we actually reward the failing districts by tossing more money at places like Trenton and Newark. They spend more money per pupil than successful districts next door.

My local school district wanted and still wants a 6% raise in today's Obama economy.

Zero kept his daughter out of Chicago Public Schools for a reason. They're cesspools of failure.

Oh Winnar. You're not my favorite troll on here, as you're either bordering on brain dead or an insufferable douchebag, but you are the most successful one.

You keep right on trolling! Don't let anyone hold you back!

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Zero kept his daughter out of Chicago Public Schools for a reason. They're cesspools of failure.

Or maybe it's because he has money and can afford to send his kids to private school? Are you saying that those with the means should be forced to send their kids to public school?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: winnar111

Hey, apparently 7 hour days 3/4 of the year with the benefits of a king isn't enough for the unions. Here in New Jersey, we actually reward the failing districts by tossing more money at places like Trenton and Newark. They spend more money per pupil than successful districts next door.

My local school district wanted and still wants a 6% raise in today's Obama economy.

Zero kept his daughter out of Chicago Public Schools for a reason. They're cesspools of failure.

Oh Winnar. You're not my favorite troll on here, as you're either bordering on brain dead or an insufferable douchebag, but you are the most successful one.

You keep right on trolling! Don't let anyone hold you back!

I think he went to public school.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: winnar111
Zero kept his daughter out of Chicago Public Schools for a reason. They're cesspools of failure.

Or maybe it's because he has money and can afford to send his kids to private school? Are you saying that those with the means should be forced to send their kids to public school?

Sounds like you're saying private schools are better than public schools. In quite a few cases, they're cheaper too.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

I've heard similar stories elsewhere, from sources I do know to be reliable.

Everybody in Tewksbury shows up to work drunk.

:Q

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: yowolabi
-snip-
How do you think the teacher's union will stop it?

Lobbying Congress.

Fern