Obama wants to give pay raises for performing teachers

[MrMatt]

Originally posted by: mugs
Been done before at lower levels, and was abandoned. It seems that when you tie teacher pay to the performance of their students, teachers cheat.

yup. Read freakanomics? They tried this in Chicago and it absolutely bombed.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: spidey07
Agree that the teachers union will never allow it. Here in KY they let a few teachers go for things like not showing up for a month, showing up drunk everyday, etc.

The union is outraged and is suing to get them reinstated.

-edit-
It's a good idea, give it a shot. I just don't see those goals as attainable given the teacher's unions.

Please provide links to support your stories. I'm betting they are either outright made up, or you have 'forgotten' to mention some important details.

I don't doubt that many of these type of stories are made up. I do recall quite clearly a few teachers who were completely worthless and actually hated the kids anyway though. There are plenty of teachers not doing their job. There are also a decent amount doing a very good job. I think that a culling is in order.

Sure there are shitty teachers out there, my mom has been a teacher for more than 20 years. I just sincerely doubt the union is suing to keep the job of a teacher that didn't show up to work for a month for no reason.

I very much support a system like the one they are implementing in DC. Give administrators greater power to fire teachers, but pay the ones you have left much more. If you want good teachers, you have to be willing to pay for them. How we've thought that we can attract top quality teachers while paying the new ones crap is beyond me.

EDIT: One more thing, I think tying the pay of teachers to performance on standardized tests would be retarded. Tying pay to a more mixed evaluation system might work.

 

[MrMatt]

Plus, how would you rate teachers? It would just lead to more teachers teaching to a specific test instead of actually educating their students.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
even at universities people with higher degrees manage to stay around...

They may be the smartest person in the school, but they can't teach. Math is a perfect example. My math teacher for pre-calc was a really smart guy, but he was terrible at teaching math. My calc teacher is smart, but doesn't seem quite as quick as this other guy to come up with crazy ways to solve things. Yet, he is a very good teacher. I can easily understand the concepts when he explains them and now to me doing calculus is nowhere near as painful (currently taking calc2 from him)

im a computer science major..another example is my current programming teacher. The guy has published papers and is very intelligent, and yet he is terrible at passing on that information to other people. What seems obvious to him is not obvious to almost anyone else in the class. He gets rude and is annoyed that he has to explain what he considers to be easy concepts. My former programming teacher made the whole thing very easy while still teaching the same content that the other teachers teach. He knew that his job was to TEACH and he enjoyed doing it.

It makes all the difference in the world.

Well, at a university a lot of times the professor's primary job is NOT to teach, it's to conduct research. I guarantee the university finds whatever papers he is publishing more valuable than what he's teaching the undergrads.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: spidey07
Agree that the teachers union will never allow it. Here in KY they let a few teachers go for things like not showing up for a month, showing up drunk everyday, etc.

The union is outraged and is suing to get them reinstated.

-edit-
It's a good idea, give it a shot. I just don't see those goals as attainable given the teacher's unions.

Please provide links to support your stories. I'm betting they are either outright made up, or you have 'forgotten' to mention some important details.

I don't doubt that many of these type of stories are made up. I do recall quite clearly a few teachers who were completely worthless and actually hated the kids anyway though. There are plenty of teachers not doing their job. There are also a decent amount doing a very good job. I think that a culling is in order.

Sure there are shitty teachers out there, my mom has been a teacher for more than 20 years. I just sincerely doubt the union is suing to keep the job of a teacher that didn't show up to work for a month for no reason.

I very much support a system like the one they are implementing in DC. Give administrators greater power to fire teachers, but pay the ones you have left much more. If you want good teachers, you have to be willing to pay for them. How we've thought that we can attract top quality teachers while paying the new ones crap is beyond me.

Arent the pay scales negotiated by the union?

 

[her209]

Get rid of the entire public school infrastructure and put in a internet-based educational system.

 

[Slick5150]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: spidey07
Agree that the teachers union will never allow it. Here in KY they let a few teachers go for things like not showing up for a month, showing up drunk everyday, etc.

The union is outraged and is suing to get them reinstated.

-edit-
It's a good idea, give it a shot. I just don't see those goals as attainable given the teacher's unions.

Stories like that are what give unions a bad name.

Especially when they're made up by people like spidey07.

Not saying their aren't bad teachers who deserve to be fired, but I'm also fairly confident the teacher's union did not sue to get a teacher that showed up to work drunk everyday reinstated to their job.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Arent the pay scales negotiated by the union?

Yeap. Why do you ask?

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
There is no reason teachers shouldn't be payed based on how well they teach - just like every other profession, where you're payed by what is essentially the quality of your work.

And how do you rank them? By grades... that they give? Test score... even though the teacher got a bunch of idiots with bad parents?


Not trying to start a fight but really how do you measure teachers and be fair?

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
The teacher's union will never allow it.

On a side note:
This past weekend, I spoke to a friend of mine who is a 3rd grade teacher.
She is currently waiting to find out whether or not she is going to get a pink slip this week.

In her school, there is a teacher who is so bad, that the principal tried to fire him. The union stepped in and said he has tenure, you can't fire him. The principal ended up having to put this teacher to work watching kids in detention. The really sad thing is that if the school does have to let a teacher go, it will be my friend. Even though she recently won a teacher of the year award for the district, the looser teacher watching kids in detention has tenure over her.

They would have to keep a teacher, who the principal feels is unfit to teach and fire the teacher who is one of the best in the entire district.

The power these unions have is down right scary.

Unions have no more power then the admin's give them. I work fed gov and the union here has as much power as we give them. they can ask for as much as they want but we have rules and agree to them.
The union in your case is only using the rules the Admin gave them.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Slick5150


Especially when they're made up by people like spidey07.

Not saying their aren't bad teachers who deserve to be fired, but I'm also fairly confident the teacher's union did not sue to get a teacher that showed up to work drunk everyday reinstated to their job.

It was all over the local news for quite a while here but it's probably over a year old. The only things I can find are the local paper and you have to pay for it. I'll keep digging but I'm not making it up.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Arent the pay scales negotiated by the union?

Yeap. Why do you ask?

One of the complaints is the teachers union is one of the problems in our education system. You ask how can we attract people by paying new people crap? The answer is right now we cant due to union mandates with regards to compensation.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
There is no reason teachers shouldn't be payed based on how well they teach - just like every other profession, where you're payed by what is essentially the quality of your work.

And how do you rank them? By grades... that they give? Test score... even though the teacher got a bunch of idiots with bad parents?


Not trying to start a fight but really how do you measure teachers and be fair?

I'm not sure on that front yet, maybe a mix of evaluations from different sources as well as scores that children are receiving from standardized tests (or extra tests they are taking, like SAT Subject Tests, APs, etc)?

I'd probably be okay if they didn't implement merit pay and the district was given the ability to fire worthless teachers instead.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Arent the pay scales negotiated by the union?

Yeap. Why do you ask?

One of the complaints is the teachers union is one of the problems in our education system. You ask how can we attract people by paying new people crap? The answer is right now we cant due to union mandates with regards to compensation.

As I pointed out before, the union has as much power as they are given. Blame the Admin's that agreed to it, not the union. They just use the rules they are given.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: spidey07
Agree that the teachers union will never allow it. Here in KY they let a few teachers go for things like not showing up for a month, showing up drunk everyday, etc.

The union is outraged and is suing to get them reinstated.

-edit-
It's a good idea, give it a shot. I just don't see those goals as attainable given the teacher's unions.

Stories like that are what give unions a bad name.

Especially when they're made up by people like spidey07.

Not saying their aren't bad teachers who deserve to be fired, but I'm also fairly confident the teacher's union did not sue to get a teacher that showed up to work drunk everyday reinstated to their job.

I've heard similar stories elsewhere, from sources I do know to be reliable.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: spidey07
Agree that the teachers union will never allow it. Here in KY they let a few teachers go for things like not showing up for a month, showing up drunk everyday, etc.

The union is outraged and is suing to get them reinstated.

-edit-
It's a good idea, give it a shot. I just don't see those goals as attainable given the teacher's unions.

Stories like that are what give unions a bad name.

Especially when they're made up by people like spidey07.

Not saying their aren't bad teachers who deserve to be fired, but I'm also fairly confident the teacher's union did not sue to get a teacher that showed up to work drunk everyday reinstated to their job.

Well I tried looking for something in KY and came across a story from the AP that talked about a rubber room. Sound familiar? Must be a union thing as it sounds a lot like the job bank for auto workers. Anyways the AP story is gone from the site and all I could read were snippets from blogs talking about at least one teacher who was accused of child abuse spending 5.5 years in a rubber room awaiting a discliplinary hearing. He was paid full compensation for sitting on his ass. Since that article was missing I went looking for more and came across this from NCY.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01...angela_montefinise.htm

Take Elihu McMahon, a high-school chemistry teacher who spent 12 of 15 years in disciplinary "rubber rooms" - district offices where teachers facing charges cool their heels away from class.

He remained on the city payroll for his entire career - getting paid his full $77,000-a-year salary - and retired with a full pension.

The teacher was repeatedly disciplined for insensitive comments he allegedly made to heavyset and black students. McMahon said that it was just "freedom of speech" and that any changes to the tenure system would be "very bad for teachers."

While these are extreme cases. I have little doubt there are many bad teachers within our system who are not fired. Only shuffled around or stuck in these rubber rooms until let out to poison our kids again.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

I've heard similar stories elsewhere, from sources I do know to be reliable.

Everybody in Tewksbury shows up to work drunk.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: spidey07
Agree that the teachers union will never allow it. Here in KY they let a few teachers go for things like not showing up for a month, showing up drunk everyday, etc.

The union is outraged and is suing to get them reinstated.

-edit-
It's a good idea, give it a shot. I just don't see those goals as attainable given the teacher's unions.

Stories like that are what give unions a bad name.

Especially when they're made up by people like spidey07.

Not saying their aren't bad teachers who deserve to be fired, but I'm also fairly confident the teacher's union did not sue to get a teacher that showed up to work drunk everyday reinstated to their job.

I've heard similar stories elsewhere, from sources I do know to be reliable.

Well, please provide links to them. I am betting the union fighting to keep drunks in the classroom with our children is newsworthy.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Arent the pay scales negotiated by the union?

Yeap. Why do you ask?

One of the complaints is the teachers union is one of the problems in our education system. You ask how can we attract people by paying new people crap? The answer is right now we cant due to union mandates with regards to compensation.

It takes two to tango. Pay scales are negotiated by the administration and by the union.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: spidey07
Agree that the teachers union will never allow it. Here in KY they let a few teachers go for things like not showing up for a month, showing up drunk everyday, etc.

The union is outraged and is suing to get them reinstated.

-edit-
It's a good idea, give it a shot. I just don't see those goals as attainable given the teacher's unions.

Stories like that are what give unions a bad name.

Especially when they're made up by people like spidey07.

Not saying their aren't bad teachers who deserve to be fired, but I'm also fairly confident the teacher's union did not sue to get a teacher that showed up to work drunk everyday reinstated to their job.

Well I tried looking for something in KY and came across a story from the AP that talked about a rubber room. Sound familiar? Must be a union thing as it sounds a lot like the job bank for auto workers. Anyways the AP story is gone from the site and all I could read were snippets from blogs talking about at least one teacher who was accused of child abuse spending 5.5 years in a rubber room awaiting a discliplinary hearing. He was paid full compensation for sitting on his ass. Since that article was missing I went looking for more and came across this from NCY.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01...angela_montefinise.htm

Take Elihu McMahon, a high-school chemistry teacher who spent 12 of 15 years in disciplinary "rubber rooms" - district offices where teachers facing charges cool their heels away from class.

He remained on the city payroll for his entire career - getting paid his full $77,000-a-year salary - and retired with a full pension.

The teacher was repeatedly disciplined for insensitive comments he allegedly made to heavyset and black students. McMahon said that it was just "freedom of speech" and that any changes to the tenure system would be "very bad for teachers."

While these are extreme cases. I have little doubt there are many bad teachers within our system who are not fired. Only shuffled around or stuck in these rubber rooms until let out to poison our kids again.

And that is a example of bag mangment, not the union.

I know of several cases where MGT put someone on paid admin leave and did not touch it for over a year.


Bad MGT/Admin's do not equal super powers by the union.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Arent the pay scales negotiated by the union?

Yeap. Why do you ask?

One of the complaints is the teachers union is one of the problems in our education system. You ask how can we attract people by paying new people crap? The answer is right now we cant due to union mandates with regards to compensation.

It takes two to tango. Pay scales are negotiated by the administration and by the union.

Until the bond is broken we will continue to pay new teachers crap.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975



And that is a example of bag mangment, not the union.

I know of several cases where MGT put someone on paid admin leave and did not touch it for over a year.


Bad MGT/Admin's do not equal super powers by the union.

Just curious. Is there anything a union can do wrong in your world?

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: winnar111
There's nothing wrong at all with 'teaching the test' as some morons put it. Better to evaluate which districts are saddled with failure, then cut and run with our funds.

Well... there are good and bad things when teaching the test.

It's easy to standardize and easy to point out laggers. It also does build basic skill sets, like spelling, mathematics and reading.

On the other hand, it severely curtails critical thinking and independent thought. When these kids get to college, it's a totally different environment. You usually aren't being force-fed facts, instead you are given situations and you have to think critically about what's involved. So while good test scores might get them into a top tier school, they might not have the skill sets necessary to succeed in college.

Most of these kids aren't interested in critical thinking unless its about American idol and rhyming rap music.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

One of the complaints is the teachers union is one of the problems in our education system. You ask how can we attract people by paying new people crap? The answer is right now we cant due to union mandates with regards to compensation.

It takes two to tango. Pay scales are negotiated by the administration and by the union.

Until the bond is broken we will continue to pay new teachers crap.

Or until the state allocates more funding for teacher pay and administrations use it to effectively negotiate.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Marlin1975



And that is a example of bag mangment, not the union.

I know of several cases where MGT put someone on paid admin leave and did not touch it for over a year.


Bad MGT/Admin's do not equal super powers by the union.

Just curious. Is there anything a union can do wrong in your world?

Yea but if you have good Admin/MGT then it would be taken care of.


I work AGAINST the union all the time. I am part of MGT in the HR team for the Fed Gov (State Dept). So we don;t have these problems as we take care of them. State Dept does not have as many of these issues as other Departments as we are very proactive for the most part. I have been part of firing someone several times and each time we did it right and their appeal failed.

So I speak of first hand experiance, you?