What question does the overall OP ask. It's a bunch of pure garbage. Our founding fathers are the ones who obliged us to treat all men equally, that we have inalienable rights that must never be violated. They are the ones that put Americans at risk by making us the worlds greatest people. Unfortunately, as you can see, we were not good enough to live up to their example. We are now infected by a bunch of worthless and ignorant swine who only imagine they are Americans. The only thing about them that's American is their country of origin. If tho founding fathers could see them they would vomit in their faces. Only human scum tortures another human being. Only human scum and nobody else.
What question does the overall OP ask. It's a bunch of pure garbage. Our founding fathers are the ones who obliged us to treat all men equally, that we have inalienable rights that must never be violated. They are the ones that put Americans at risk by making us the worlds greatest people. Unfortunately, as you can see, we were not good enough to live up to their example. We are now infected by a bunch of worthless and ignorant swine who only imagine they are Americans. The only thing about them that's American is their country of origin. If tho founding fathers could see them they would vomit in their faces. Only human scum tortures another human being. Only human scum and nobody else.
What makes you think military personnel wouldn't back him? I realize that historically the military votes Republican more than Democrat, but if you look back you'll find that in unpopular wars there is a shifting towards D even by the military. I doubt if it's all that big of a margin right now.
And yes, I'm ex-military who more or less supports Obama (at least more than any recent Republican ticket).
That's a rant, not a relating of the OP. The OP asks if Obama is making good policy choices. It's just that it's done in such a way as to incite bias and conflict, where a poll would be simpler.
Puhleease!!! The founding fathers also had hundreds of slaves. Save the high-minded mumbo-jumbo for the idealists. Ahhh, sometimes I wished there were less lawyers and more engineers running this country.
Well played. Though I would much rather have philosophers than engineers or lawyers.You make a good point but the laws they created planted the seeds that ended slavery. They had the faith that truth adheres to our being. You don't live up to that ideal if you torture other human beings.
OrByte
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2000
- 9,303
- 144
- 106
Cheney's speech - an analysis
Cheney's speech contained omissions, misstatements
By Jonathan S. Landay and Warren P. Strobel, McClatchy Newspapers Jonathan S. Landay And Warren P. Strobel, Mcclatchy Newspapers Thu May 21, 7:10 pm ET
WASHINGTON ? Former Vice President Dick Cheney's defense Thursday of the Bush administration's policies for interrogating suspected terrorists contained omissions, exaggerations and misstatements.
In his address to the American Enterprise Institute , a conservative policy organization in Washington , Cheney said that the techniques the Bush administration approved, including waterboarding ? simulated drowning that's considered a form of torture ? forced nakedness and sleep deprivation, were "legal" and produced information that "prevented the violent death of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people."
He quoted the Director of National Intelligence, Adm. Dennis Blair , as saying that the information gave U.S. officials a "deeper understanding of the al Qaida organization that was attacking this country."
In a statement April 21 , however, Blair said the information "was valuable in some instances" but that "there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is that these techniques hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
A top-secret 2004 CIA inspector general's investigation found no conclusive proof that information gained from aggressive interrogations helped thwart any "specific imminent attacks," according to one of four top-secret Bush-era memos that the Justice Department released last month.
FBI Director Mueller Robert Muller told Vanity Fair magazine in December that he didn't think that the techniques disrupted any attacks.
? Cheney said that President Barack Obama's decision to release the four top-secret Bush administration memos on the interrogation techniques was "flatly contrary" to U.S. national security, and would help al Qaida train terrorists in how to resist U.S. interrogations.
However, Blair, who oversees all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies, said in his statement that he recommended the release of the memos, "strongly supported" Obama's decision to prohibit using the controversial methods and that "we do not need these techniques to keep America safe."
? Cheney said that the Bush administration "moved decisively against the terrorists in their hideouts and their sanctuaries, and committed to using every asset to take down their networks."
The former vice president didn't point out that Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenant, Ayman al Zawahri , remain at large nearly eight years after 9-11 and that the Bush administration began diverting U.S. forces, intelligence assets, time and money to planning an invasion of Iraq before it finished the war in Afghanistan against al Qaida and the Taliban .
There are now 49,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan fighting to contain the bloodiest surge in Taliban violence since the 2001 U.S.-led intervention, and Islamic extremists also have launched their most concerted attack yet on neighboring, nuclear-armed Pakistan .
? Cheney denied that there was any connection between the Bush administration's interrogation policies and the abuse of detainee at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, which he blamed on "a few sadistic guards . . . in violation of American law, military regulations and simple decency."
However, a bipartisan Senate Armed Services Committee report in December traced the abuses at Abu Ghraib to the approval of the techniques by senior Bush administration officials, including former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld .
"The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of 'a few bad apples' acting on their own," said the report issued by Sens. Carl Levin , D- Mich. , and John McCain , R- Ariz. "The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality and authorized their use against detainees."
? Cheney said that "only detainees of the highest intelligence value" were subjected to the harsh interrogation techniques, and he cited Khalid Sheikh Mohammad , the alleged mastermind of the 9-11 attacks.
He didn't mention Abu Zubaydah, the first senior al Qaida operative to be captured after 9-11. Former FBI special agent Ali Soufan told a Senate subcommittee last week that his interrogation of Zubaydah using traditional methods elicited crucial information, including Mohammed's alleged role in 9-11.
The decision to use the harsh interrogation methods "was one of the worst and most harmful decisions made in our efforts against al Qaida ," Soufan said. Former State Department official Philip Zelikow , who in 2005 was then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's point man in an internal fight to overhaul the Bush administration's detention policies, joined Soufan in his criticism.
? Cheney said that "the key to any strategy is accurate intelligence," but the Bush administration ignored warnings from experts in the CIA , the Defense Intelligence Agency , the State Department , the Department of Energy and other agencies, and used false or exaggerated intelligence supplied by Iraqi exile groups and others to help make its case for the 2003 invasion.
Cheney made no mention of al Qaida operative Ali Mohamed al Fakheri , who's known as Ibn Sheikh al Libi , whom the Bush administration secretly turned over to Egypt for interrogation in January 2002 . While allegedly being tortured by Egyptian authorities, Libi provided false information about Iraq's links with al Qaida , which the Bush administration used despite doubts expressed by the DIA.
A state-run Libyan newspaper said Libi committed suicide recently in a Libyan jail.
? Cheney accused Obama of "the selective release" of documents on Bush administration detainee policies, charging that Obama withheld records that Cheney claimed prove that information gained from the harsh interrogation methods prevented terrorist attacks.
"I've formally asked that (the information) be declassified so the American people can see the intelligence we obtained," Cheney said. "Last week, that request was formally rejected."
However, the decision to withhold the documents was announced by the CIA , which said that it was obliged to do so by a 2003 executive order issued by former President George W. Bush prohibiting the release of materials that are the subject of lawsuits.
? Cheney said that only "ruthless enemies of this country" were detained by U.S. operatives overseas and taken to secret U.S. prisons.
A 2008 McClatchy investigation, however, found that the vast majority of Guantanamo detainees captured in 2001 and 2002 in Afghanistan and Pakistan were innocent citizens or low-level fighters of little intelligence value who were turned over to American officials for money or because of personal or political rivalries.
In addition, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Oct. 5, 2005 , that the Bush administration had admitted to her that it had mistakenly abducted a German citizen, Khaled Masri , from Macedonia in January 2004 .
Masri reportedly was flown to a secret prison in Afghanistan , where he allegedly was abused while being interrogated. He was released in May 2004 and dumped on a remote road in Albania .
In January 2007 , the German government issued arrest warrants for 13 alleged CIA operatives on charges of kidnapping Masri.
? Cheney slammed Obama's decision to close the Guantanamo Bay prison camp and criticized his effort to persuade other countries to accept some of the detainees.
The effort to shut down the facility, however, began during Bush's second term, promoted by Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates .
"One of the things that would help a lot is, in the discussions that we have with the states of which they (detainees) are nationals, if we could get some of those countries to take them back," Rice said in a Dec. 12, 2007 , interview with the British Broadcasting Corp. "So we need help in closing Guantanamo ."
? Cheney said that, in assessing the security environment after 9-11, the Bush team had to take into account "dictators like Saddam Hussein with known ties to Mideast terrorists."
Cheney didn't explicitly repeat the contention he made repeatedly in office: that Saddam cooperated with al Qaida , a linkage that U.S. intelligence officials and numerous official inquiries have rebutted repeatedly.
The late Iraqi dictator's association with terrorists vacillated and was mostly aimed at quashing opponents and critics at home and abroad.
The last State Department report on international terrorism to be released before 9-11 said that Saddam's regime "has not attempted an anti-Western terrorist attack since its failed plot to assassinate former President ( George H.W.) Bush in 1993 in Kuwait ."
A Pentagon study released last year, based on a review of 600,000 Iraqi documents captured after the U.S.-led invasion, concluded that while Saddam supported militant Palestinian groups ? the late terrorist Abu Nidal found refuge in Baghdad , at least until Saddam had him killed ? the Iraqi security services had no "direct operational link" with al Qaida .
Cheney's speech contained omissions, misstatements
By Jonathan S. Landay and Warren P. Strobel, McClatchy Newspapers Jonathan S. Landay And Warren P. Strobel, Mcclatchy Newspapers Thu May 21, 7:10 pm ET
WASHINGTON ? Former Vice President Dick Cheney's defense Thursday of the Bush administration's policies for interrogating suspected terrorists contained omissions, exaggerations and misstatements.
In his address to the American Enterprise Institute , a conservative policy organization in Washington , Cheney said that the techniques the Bush administration approved, including waterboarding ? simulated drowning that's considered a form of torture ? forced nakedness and sleep deprivation, were "legal" and produced information that "prevented the violent death of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent people."
He quoted the Director of National Intelligence, Adm. Dennis Blair , as saying that the information gave U.S. officials a "deeper understanding of the al Qaida organization that was attacking this country."
In a statement April 21 , however, Blair said the information "was valuable in some instances" but that "there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is that these techniques hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
A top-secret 2004 CIA inspector general's investigation found no conclusive proof that information gained from aggressive interrogations helped thwart any "specific imminent attacks," according to one of four top-secret Bush-era memos that the Justice Department released last month.
FBI Director Mueller Robert Muller told Vanity Fair magazine in December that he didn't think that the techniques disrupted any attacks.
? Cheney said that President Barack Obama's decision to release the four top-secret Bush administration memos on the interrogation techniques was "flatly contrary" to U.S. national security, and would help al Qaida train terrorists in how to resist U.S. interrogations.
However, Blair, who oversees all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies, said in his statement that he recommended the release of the memos, "strongly supported" Obama's decision to prohibit using the controversial methods and that "we do not need these techniques to keep America safe."
? Cheney said that the Bush administration "moved decisively against the terrorists in their hideouts and their sanctuaries, and committed to using every asset to take down their networks."
The former vice president didn't point out that Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenant, Ayman al Zawahri , remain at large nearly eight years after 9-11 and that the Bush administration began diverting U.S. forces, intelligence assets, time and money to planning an invasion of Iraq before it finished the war in Afghanistan against al Qaida and the Taliban .
There are now 49,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan fighting to contain the bloodiest surge in Taliban violence since the 2001 U.S.-led intervention, and Islamic extremists also have launched their most concerted attack yet on neighboring, nuclear-armed Pakistan .
? Cheney denied that there was any connection between the Bush administration's interrogation policies and the abuse of detainee at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, which he blamed on "a few sadistic guards . . . in violation of American law, military regulations and simple decency."
However, a bipartisan Senate Armed Services Committee report in December traced the abuses at Abu Ghraib to the approval of the techniques by senior Bush administration officials, including former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld .
"The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of 'a few bad apples' acting on their own," said the report issued by Sens. Carl Levin , D- Mich. , and John McCain , R- Ariz. "The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality and authorized their use against detainees."
? Cheney said that "only detainees of the highest intelligence value" were subjected to the harsh interrogation techniques, and he cited Khalid Sheikh Mohammad , the alleged mastermind of the 9-11 attacks.
He didn't mention Abu Zubaydah, the first senior al Qaida operative to be captured after 9-11. Former FBI special agent Ali Soufan told a Senate subcommittee last week that his interrogation of Zubaydah using traditional methods elicited crucial information, including Mohammed's alleged role in 9-11.
The decision to use the harsh interrogation methods "was one of the worst and most harmful decisions made in our efforts against al Qaida ," Soufan said. Former State Department official Philip Zelikow , who in 2005 was then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's point man in an internal fight to overhaul the Bush administration's detention policies, joined Soufan in his criticism.
? Cheney said that "the key to any strategy is accurate intelligence," but the Bush administration ignored warnings from experts in the CIA , the Defense Intelligence Agency , the State Department , the Department of Energy and other agencies, and used false or exaggerated intelligence supplied by Iraqi exile groups and others to help make its case for the 2003 invasion.
Cheney made no mention of al Qaida operative Ali Mohamed al Fakheri , who's known as Ibn Sheikh al Libi , whom the Bush administration secretly turned over to Egypt for interrogation in January 2002 . While allegedly being tortured by Egyptian authorities, Libi provided false information about Iraq's links with al Qaida , which the Bush administration used despite doubts expressed by the DIA.
A state-run Libyan newspaper said Libi committed suicide recently in a Libyan jail.
? Cheney accused Obama of "the selective release" of documents on Bush administration detainee policies, charging that Obama withheld records that Cheney claimed prove that information gained from the harsh interrogation methods prevented terrorist attacks.
"I've formally asked that (the information) be declassified so the American people can see the intelligence we obtained," Cheney said. "Last week, that request was formally rejected."
However, the decision to withhold the documents was announced by the CIA , which said that it was obliged to do so by a 2003 executive order issued by former President George W. Bush prohibiting the release of materials that are the subject of lawsuits.
? Cheney said that only "ruthless enemies of this country" were detained by U.S. operatives overseas and taken to secret U.S. prisons.
A 2008 McClatchy investigation, however, found that the vast majority of Guantanamo detainees captured in 2001 and 2002 in Afghanistan and Pakistan were innocent citizens or low-level fighters of little intelligence value who were turned over to American officials for money or because of personal or political rivalries.
In addition, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Oct. 5, 2005 , that the Bush administration had admitted to her that it had mistakenly abducted a German citizen, Khaled Masri , from Macedonia in January 2004 .
Masri reportedly was flown to a secret prison in Afghanistan , where he allegedly was abused while being interrogated. He was released in May 2004 and dumped on a remote road in Albania .
In January 2007 , the German government issued arrest warrants for 13 alleged CIA operatives on charges of kidnapping Masri.
? Cheney slammed Obama's decision to close the Guantanamo Bay prison camp and criticized his effort to persuade other countries to accept some of the detainees.
The effort to shut down the facility, however, began during Bush's second term, promoted by Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates .
"One of the things that would help a lot is, in the discussions that we have with the states of which they (detainees) are nationals, if we could get some of those countries to take them back," Rice said in a Dec. 12, 2007 , interview with the British Broadcasting Corp. "So we need help in closing Guantanamo ."
? Cheney said that, in assessing the security environment after 9-11, the Bush team had to take into account "dictators like Saddam Hussein with known ties to Mideast terrorists."
Cheney didn't explicitly repeat the contention he made repeatedly in office: that Saddam cooperated with al Qaida , a linkage that U.S. intelligence officials and numerous official inquiries have rebutted repeatedly.
The late Iraqi dictator's association with terrorists vacillated and was mostly aimed at quashing opponents and critics at home and abroad.
The last State Department report on international terrorism to be released before 9-11 said that Saddam's regime "has not attempted an anti-Western terrorist attack since its failed plot to assassinate former President ( George H.W.) Bush in 1993 in Kuwait ."
A Pentagon study released last year, based on a review of 600,000 Iraqi documents captured after the U.S.-led invasion, concluded that while Saddam supported militant Palestinian groups ? the late terrorist Abu Nidal found refuge in Baghdad , at least until Saddam had him killed ? the Iraqi security services had no "direct operational link" with al Qaida .
Cheney is making his argument, and you are supporting him. It's up to you to provide proof.
See, I have this lucky rock I found, and since I started carrying it around on 9/12/01, there haven't been any attacks. So my rock must be the reason that we are safe.
Get it? correlation doesn't equal causation.
Just because a lying politician says says something, doesn't make it true. So show some proof.
Truth hurts, does it? When someone just believes everything that a man like Cheney says, when soooooo much has been proven wrong, and a person still believes it, yes, I'm going to say he's kissing ass. Cheney still publically states that Sassam had WMD and was linked to AQ. He's a lying idiot, and people that believe lying idiots are kissing ass.
I used Cheney's real name, I'm not going around calling Bush "Bushitler" or other crap. So yes, calling Obama "Barry" is pretty juvenile. Just like all those neo-cons and republicans that were calling him Hussein, or "accidentally" called him Osama. It's an intentional slight to try and degrade the person you are referring to.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
??? I dunno what you mean by that, but we never should have resorted to torture, not for any reason, not ever. We are supposed to be above that. We are the USA.
The second we started torturing bad guys to gain information, we ourselves became the bad guys - and Bush will go down in history with that tarnish on his legacy... that and it was sort of an overcompensation for allowing the worst attack on US soil in history.
Cheney exemplifies war profiteering, intolerance, class warfare, and the idea of an imperialist presidency. If the man has ever read the US Constitution that he swore to uphold, it would surprise me. Republicans like Cheney spent the entire Cold War bashing opponents as apologists for Stalin. Yet here is Dick Cheney, copying from the NKVD interrogation manual.
It is repulsive to see Cheney acting as the spokesman for the Republican party. He's almost as good as Limbaugh. His snarling, out-of-touch paranoia. Seems, he's a perfect symbol for todays wandering the wilderness GOP.
And, it shows the absurdity of their "liberal bias" claims which have come to be used so often every time someone doesn't agree with them, that these old chestnuts just sound tiresome and unbelievable. When all you hear from a party is "liberal bias, liberal bias, liberal bias" (everyone is out to get us), even the diehard faithful will eventually start to wonder if they have anything else to say.
While Cheney didn't change after 9/11 he did see a chance to grab more power and accomplish goals that would have not been possible before the attack. You can't trust anyone who benefits so much from a failure to stop something like the attacks 9/11.
Dick Cheney seems to think he is still president. Looks like he got 4 more years after all. Seems he thought we were kidding when we said we had elected a new black president. What? Where? Someone should enlighten him and let him know that we only have one president at a time. Cheney had his 8 years as president. Now he is on tv peddling his propaganda and twisted version of the truth.
So, is seems, Dick Cheney is angry. Okay,isn't 'Dick Cheney is Angry' not a headline. That's like saying 'Alan Keyes is Self-Righteous' or 'Bill Clinton is Horny' So honestly, does it come as any surprise that he's giving a speech saying he's 100% right about anything and anyone who disagrees hates America and will kill us all?
It is repulsive to see Cheney acting as the spokesman for the Republican party. He's almost as good as Limbaugh. His snarling, out-of-touch paranoia. Seems, he's a perfect symbol for todays wandering the wilderness GOP.
And, it shows the absurdity of their "liberal bias" claims which have come to be used so often every time someone doesn't agree with them, that these old chestnuts just sound tiresome and unbelievable. When all you hear from a party is "liberal bias, liberal bias, liberal bias" (everyone is out to get us), even the diehard faithful will eventually start to wonder if they have anything else to say.
While Cheney didn't change after 9/11 he did see a chance to grab more power and accomplish goals that would have not been possible before the attack. You can't trust anyone who benefits so much from a failure to stop something like the attacks 9/11.
Dick Cheney seems to think he is still president. Looks like he got 4 more years after all. Seems he thought we were kidding when we said we had elected a new black president. What? Where? Someone should enlighten him and let him know that we only have one president at a time. Cheney had his 8 years as president. Now he is on tv peddling his propaganda and twisted version of the truth.
So, is seems, Dick Cheney is angry. Okay,isn't 'Dick Cheney is Angry' not a headline. That's like saying 'Alan Keyes is Self-Righteous' or 'Bill Clinton is Horny' So honestly, does it come as any surprise that he's giving a speech saying he's 100% right about anything and anyone who disagrees hates America and will kill us all?
As always your Wrong,
The Dick is Lying
Cheney's speech contained omissions, misstatements
He keeps his perfect record intact.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
Its already proved that Cheney is a serial liar of the first magnitude. But is Cheney just having a hissy fit tempest in a teapot, or will one of more entities, step up to the plate, and press criminal charges against Cheney.
And I will laugh loud and long, if in dueling speeches, Cheney's version is used as evidence against him in a court of law.
Silly Dickie, he had a right to remain silent, and instead he damns himself.
And I will laugh loud and long, if in dueling speeches, Cheney's version is used as evidence against him in a court of law.
Silly Dickie, he had a right to remain silent, and instead he damns himself.
Atreus21
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2007
- 12,001
- 571
- 126
One thing is for sure.
The fact that Cheney got air time like this constitutes a conservative victory, whether what Cheney said is true or not. Here's why:
Right-leaners aren't likely to click the links the left-leaners have posted, or consider those sources credible, just as left-leaners don't consider Cheney credible.
This is a tactical victory for the right because it's the first major instance of a direct contradiction of Obama post-election. The timing was right: Cheney's speech went on shortly after Obama's.
The fact that Cheney got air time like this constitutes a conservative victory, whether what Cheney said is true or not. Here's why:
Right-leaners aren't likely to click the links the left-leaners have posted, or consider those sources credible, just as left-leaners don't consider Cheney credible.
This is a tactical victory for the right because it's the first major instance of a direct contradiction of Obama post-election. The timing was right: Cheney's speech went on shortly after Obama's.
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