Obama v. Cheney

[Moonbeam]

Cheney is at once one of the most unconscious and at the same time titanic assholes to gift the planet. He has that rather rare gift of not only being one of the worlds biggest assholes, but he is also proud of it. Of course, it is the perfect marriage and synergy of these two talents in their quintessential perfection that accounts for and creates this magnificent specimen of a ghoul.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
One thing is for sure.

The fact that Cheney got air time like this constitutes a conservative victory, whether what Cheney said is true or not. Here's why:

Right-leaners aren't likely to click the links the left-leaners have posted, or consider those sources credible, just as left-leaners don't consider Cheney credible.

This is a tactical victory for the right because it's the first major instance of a direct contradiction of Obama post-election. The timing was right: Cheney's speech went on shortly after Obama's.

Wait, huh? You're calling McClatchy 'not credible'? On what basis? The reason why Cheney is not credible in this case is because of the McClatchy article that shows he is distorting and omitting facts.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Atreus21
There're only two possible options given Cheney's speech:

#1. Obama just got served.

#2. Cheney's lying.

Looks like it's door #2!

What is behind door #2? I know, The phantom of the White House...

For eight years, Dick Cheney was nearly invisible other than when he shot his friend. An excellent portrayal of "Where's Waldo". Now, just when we thought we were through with the guy, he's like the party guest that won't get the hint and leave when the party is over.

Yeah, Dick, we avoided another attack for seven years, if we could just ignore that one pesky year! So we've kept the bad guys busy since then so they couldn't attack again? At what cost, both financially and more importantly in human terms? Really, what with our financial and human expenditures invading and then fighting wars over there and then our economic implosion here, it would seem they saw no need to bother themselves trying to wreak any more havoc here - they had the dynamic duo doing a splendid job all on their own! And does anyone else get the feeling Cheney is HOPING for another attack, just so he can say, "See! I told you so!"? Go back to your cave, Dick. The party's over and you trashed the place; now we have to clean up the mess.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Atreus21
One thing is for sure.

The fact that Cheney got air time like this constitutes a conservative victory, whether what Cheney said is true or not. Here's why:

Right-leaners aren't likely to click the links the left-leaners have posted, or consider those sources credible, just as left-leaners don't consider Cheney credible.

This is a tactical victory for the right because it's the first major instance of a direct contradiction of Obama post-election. The timing was right: Cheney's speech went on shortly after Obama's.

Wait, huh? You're calling McClatchy 'not credible'? On what basis? The reason why Cheney is not credible in this case is because of the McClatchy article that shows he is distorting and omitting facts.

I'm simply saying that people believe what they want to believe. Each side blames the other for the current problems, and no amount of evidence in either direction will convince them otherwise.

This is the cycle.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Wait, huh? You're calling McClatchy 'not credible'? On what basis? The reason why Cheney is not credible in this case is because of the McClatchy article that shows he is distorting and omitting facts.

I'm simply saying that people believe what they want to believe. Each side blames the other for the current problems, and no amount of evidence in either direction will convince them otherwise.

This is the cycle.

While that may be true, I don't see why that matters. (unless you are suggesting that people never talk about politics again)

In reality, there is an objective correct answer. There are objective facts. You said that either Obama got owned or Cheney was lying, and I showed you a well researched article by a reputable journalistic agency that effectively said 'Cheney is lying'.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Atreus21
There're only two possible options given Cheney's speech:

#1. Obama just got served.

#2. Cheney's lying.

Looks like it's door #2!

What is behind door #2? I know, The phantom of the White House...

For eight years, Dick Cheney was nearly invisible other than when he shot his friend. An excellent portrayal of "Where's Waldo". Now, just when we thought we were through with the guy, he's like the party guest that won't get the hint and leave when the party is over.

Yeah, Dick, we avoided another attack for seven years, if we could just ignore that one pesky year! So we've kept the bad guys busy since then so they couldn't attack again? At what cost, both financially and more importantly in human terms? Really, what with our financial and human expenditures invading and then fighting wars over there and then our economic implosion here, it would seem they saw no need to bother themselves trying to wreak any more havoc here - they had the dynamic duo doing a splendid job all on their own! And does anyone else get the feeling Cheney is HOPING for another attack, just so he can say, "See! I told you so!"? Go back to your cave, Dick. The party's over and you trashed the place; now we have to clean up the mess.

Pretty much.

When we had questions for Dickie he was too busy hiding in his "undisclosed location", but now that he's only relevant because he (or some of his goons) might end up in court he won't shut up.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

When we had questions for Dickie he was too busy hiding in his "undisclosed location", but now that he's only relevant because he (or some of his goons) might end up in court he won't shut up.

Well, thanks to our current Veep, everybody now knows where the "undisclosed location" is.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

When we had questions for Dickie he was too busy hiding in his "undisclosed location", but now that he's only relevant because he (or some of his goons) might end up in court he won't shut up.

Well, thanks to our current Veep, everybody now knows where the "undisclosed location" is.

While that was dumb of Biden to say, the fact that Cheney's super secret 'undisclosed location' was right under his house doesn't sound so amazingly secret to me.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

When we had questions for Dickie he was too busy hiding in his "undisclosed location", but now that he's only relevant because he (or some of his goons) might end up in court he won't shut up.

Well, thanks to our current Veep, everybody now knows where the "undisclosed location" is.

Undisclosed location revealed.

 

[daniel49]

hmm reading this thread is a little like watching a tennis match, except most of the serves are out of bounds.
Obama will continue to bumble along through this term accomplishing little of meaningful substance, stagnating the economy,backtracking on campaign promises etc... till the middle of the roaders swing back the other direction and throw him out.
At that time we will all wait with abated breath to see if the GOP has learned anything.
Most likely not, and once more the populace will try and vote for what each individually sees as the lesser of two evils.

Regards to waterboarding, I challenge Obama to release the documents and memos in regard to its effectiveness and results. After all you claim to be open. If its as ineffective and useless as you claim the docs would only support your case.
If a handfull of scum had to be scared, which is all that waterboarding is to save lives, I have no problem with it.
Since those that use waterboarding were waterboarded themselves as part of thier training.

 

[Docnasty]

Ugh.

They are both equally terrible.

 

[Lemon law]

As a morally bankrupt daniel49 argues the end always justify the means with, "If a handfull of scum had to be scared, which is all that waterboarding is to save lives, I have no problem with it. Since those that use waterboarding were waterboarded themselves as part of thier training."

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Dari
Obama seems to have this idealism that torture is bad and is willing to put his reputation (and the country's security) on the line for it. Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it. Do you guys think it's wise for Obama to put so much effort into trying to steer a new course with regard to the torture issue? He's only been in power a couple of months. I think he should be more discreet. After all, he's never been in uniform and his primary supporters (on the coasts) have never either.

God forbid, should this country ever be attacked under his Administration, rightly or wrongly, Obama will end up looking like an ass.

Your premise is incorrect. Cheney doesn't think (or rather, say) that he thinks torture works. He is adamant that we didn't torture anyone. Which goes to show that only jackasses actually support a policy of torture.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: daniel49
hmm reading this thread is a little like watching a tennis match, except most of the serves are out of bounds.
Obama will continue to bumble along through this term accomplishing little of meaningful substance, stagnating the economy,backtracking on campaign promises etc... till the middle of the roaders swing back the other direction and throw him out.
At that time we will all wait with abated breath to see if the GOP has learned anything.
Most likely not, and once more the populace will try and vote for what each individually sees as the lesser of two evils.

Regards to waterboarding, I challenge Obama to release the documents and memos in regard to its effectiveness and results. After all you claim to be open. If its as ineffective and useless as you claim the docs would only support your case.
If a handfull of scum had to be scared, which is all that waterboarding is to save lives, I have no problem with it.
Since those that use waterboarding were waterboarded themselves as part of thier training.

I find it funny that no matter how many people undergo waterboarding and come out and say 'it's torture', you think you know better.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Atreus21
There're only two possible options given Cheney's speech:

#1. Obama just got served.

#2. Cheney's lying.

Looks like it's door #2!

What is behind door #2? I know, The phantom of the White House...

For eight years, Dick Cheney was nearly invisible other than when he shot his friend. An excellent portrayal of "Where's Waldo". Now, just when we thought we were through with the guy, he's like the party guest that won't get the hint and leave when the party is over.

Yeah, Dick, we avoided another attack for seven years, if we could just ignore that one pesky year! So we've kept the bad guys busy since then so they couldn't attack again? At what cost, both financially and more importantly in human terms? Really, what with our financial and human expenditures invading and then fighting wars over there and then our economic implosion here, it would seem they saw no need to bother themselves trying to wreak any more havoc here - they had the dynamic duo doing a splendid job all on their own! And does anyone else get the feeling Cheney is HOPING for another attack, just so he can say, "See! I told you so!"? Go back to your cave, Dick. The party's over and you trashed the place; now we have to clean up the mess.

Often overlooked point. "We didn't get hit again." No, we didn't. One of the main reasons why is because hundreds of thousands of our soldiers provided moving targets in Iraq. 4000 of whom paid the ultimate price, tens of thousands of others who suffered less than fatal casualties, you know, merely losing limbs and small stuff like that. So great, no 3000 dead civilians as we were using tens of thousands of our soldiers as fodder and decoys. There's a record to be proud of Dick.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

So us being safe for the last 8 years means nothing and if we were attacked it would prove that torture doesn't work....... now that's logic.

As usual you misrepresent what other have said...
Quite a few general`s and the CIA and the FBI have all said that they get better results when they don`t use extreme measures of torture. Such as waterboarding....

They have also said that "torture" has NOT made the USA any safer over the last 8 years.

Whats ironic is the way you twist logic to attempt to support your diatrbe.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We didn't torture Nazi officials during WW2 and they posed a much bigger threat in every single way than Al Qaeda does. That alone should seal the debate. We literally had American soldiers dying by the thousands every day in France and we still stood morally above torture.

Think about it for a second. The greatest threat to Western Civilization, the most technologically advanced military of it's time, and by far, the most morally corrupt regime and organization to ever exist and we didn't torture any of the people involved. How exactly does Al Qaeda compare to Nazi Germany? If we stood above torture during WW2 then we ought to stand above torture now.

We had a morally weak President, a morally corrupt Vice President and a Defense Department willing to look the other way. Cheney has egg on his face and is trying to tell us that it saved us from bears, because obviously, there are no bears around. The bottomline about torture is that it very rarely works.

Or maybe they didn't want to see thousands of Americans die.

Again OmartheZealot speaks the truth and because your cannot dare admit that the Bushwacko`s and Cheneywacko`s werer wrong you are blind to the truth!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

So us being safe for the last 8 years means nothing and if we were attacked it would prove that torture doesn't work....... now that's logic.

You're full of shit. It proves nothing.

• You have absolutely NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture prevented any attacks, whatsoever.
  
• You have NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture was even true.
  
• You have even less evidence that any "information" gained through torture that may have been true would not have been gained sooner without torture.

YOU and the rest of the torture maniacs are a greater threat to American democracy and freedom than the worst of the worst of Al Qaeda and all the Al Qaeda wannabes. At least, THEY admit they're out to destroy us while you tell us the only way to save our nation is to destroy everything Americans have fought and died to defend for over two hundred years. :thumbsdown: :|

Even worse, they're there, and you're running free, HERE! :shocked:

I agree with Harvey`s accurate observation -- You Budmantom are full of shit!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: Harvey

I'm glad you noticed. It's called the truth. :light:

Are you refering to our president, because he supports rendition......

No, I'm referring to you.

Harvey,

You know as much about the truth as you do about facts, that's why you refuse to debate and you resort to name calling and belittling people on this forum that you disagree with.


Feel free to talk about Obama and his support of rendition, that's if you can put the kool-aid down.

I would also refuse to debate you..mainly because I was taught that you never get in a debate with an unarmed person.....

Also it`s hard to debate somebody who has no facts to back up their dribble!!

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49
hmm reading this thread is a little like watching a tennis match, except most of the serves are out of bounds.
Obama will continue to bumble along through this term accomplishing little of meaningful substance, stagnating the economy,backtracking on campaign promises etc... till the middle of the roaders swing back the other direction and throw him out.
At that time we will all wait with abated breath to see if the GOP has learned anything.
Most likely not, and once more the populace will try and vote for what each individually sees as the lesser of two evils.

Regards to waterboarding, I challenge Obama to release the documents and memos in regard to its effectiveness and results. After all you claim to be open. If its as ineffective and useless as you claim the docs would only support your case.
If a handfull of scum had to be scared, which is all that waterboarding is to save lives, I have no problem with it.
Since those that use waterboarding were waterboarded themselves as part of thier training.

I find it funny that no matter how many people undergo waterboarding and come out and say 'it's torture', you think you know better.

I've read no testimony from soldiers who have undergone it have you? Only been made aware that thats part of the training.
Heres an interesting challenge from Hannity, you ought to love this.
Text

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: daniel49

I've read no testimony from soldiers who have undergone it have you? Only been made aware that thats part of the training.
Heres an interesting challenge from Hannity, you ought to love this.
Text

Speaking of Hannity, Jesse Ventura, a former Navy SEAL who underwent waterboarding in training was on the Sean Hannity show the other day... and he said waterboarding was torture.

So yes, I've seen testimony from soldiers who have undergone it.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe nobodyknows buys into the contention that, "So we've kept the bad guys busy since then so they couldn't attack again?"

But I certainly do not. I have to assume, especially since since Al-Quida now has reconstituted itself, and US homeland security has failed to harden our infrastructure, that the lack of any subsequent Al-Quida attacks on the US homeland, is only due to an Al-Quida decision that no further attacks are needed at this time.

After all, when you have your enemy bankrupting himself and increasing Al-Quida recruitment, why change a good thing from the Al-Quida perspective.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

So us being safe for the last 8 years means nothing and if we were attacked it would prove that torture doesn't work....... now that's logic.

So us being safe for hundreds of years prior to Cheney coming into office and changing the rules means nothing to you?

You should stop twisting logic so much...it really hurts.

 

[RKDaley]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

When we had questions for Dickie he was too busy hiding in his "undisclosed location", but now that he's only relevant because he (or some of his goons) might end up in court he won't shut up.

Well, thanks to our current Veep, everybody now knows where the "undisclosed location" is.

Except Cheney had already disclosed where he was during an interview on 'Meet The Press'

CHENEY: ?While I was there, over the next several minutes, watching developments on the television and as we started to get organized to figure out what to do, my Secret Service agents came in and, under these circumstances, they just move. They don't say ?sir? or ask politely. They came in and said, ?Sir, we have to leave immediately, and grabbed me and. . .?7

?Yeah. And, you know, your feet touch the floor periodically. But they're bigger than I am, and they hoisted me up and moved me very rapidly down the hallway, down some stairs, through some doors and down some more stairs into an underground facility under the White House, and, as a matter of fact, it's a corridor, locked at both ends, and they did that because they had received a report that an airplane was headed for the White House.?

?And when it entered the danger zone and looked like it was headed for the White House was when they grabbed me and evacuated me to the basement. . . . [O]nce I got down into the shelter, the first thing I did--there's a secure phone there. First thing I did was pick up the telephone and call the president again, who was still down in Florida, at that point, and strongly urged him to delay his return.?

?Once I left that immediate shelter, after I talked to the president, urged him to stay away for now, well, I went down into what's called PEOC,8 the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, and there, I had Norm Mineta . . . . I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people. We had access, secured communications with Air Force One, with the Secretary of Defense over in the Pentagon. We had also the secure videoconference that ties together the White House, CIA, State, Justice, Defense.?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/i...hp?context=va&aid=9368

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Dari
Obama seems to have this idealism that torture is bad and is willing to put his reputation (and the country's security) on the line for it. Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it. Do you guys think it's wise for Obama to put so much effort into trying to steer a new course with regard to the torture issue? He's only been in power a couple of months. I think he should be more discreet. After all, he's never been in uniform and his primary supporters (on the coasts) have never either.

God forbid, should this country ever be attacked under his Administration, rightly or wrongly, Obama will end up looking like an ass.

Your premise is incorrect. Cheney doesn't think (or rather, say) that he thinks torture works. He is adamant that we didn't torture anyone. Which goes to show that only jackasses actually support a policy of torture.

He can't admit to torture for legal reasons:roll: