Obama v. Cheney

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Great post Omar.

I rarely agree with you, but this is true. Very well put, and correct argument.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Great post Omar.

I rarely agree with you, but this is true. Very well put, and correct argument.

Because who cares about thousands of American's lives when the leftists can be morally strong.

 

[colonel]

when this guy is going to go away, he is trying to cover an investigation while he is still get the spotlight.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

Lose our soul? Please, don't be so dramatic. We had slavery, segregation, no women's right, etc... I think we'll be ok as a nation.

The right to due process is at the heart of our nation's founding. Sure, we have had those tragedies in the past, but 'we'll be okay as a nation' is no excuse to go backwards. Without due process, all other rights are useless. So yes, we cease to be who we are as a nation without it.

That sounds great except Obama supports rendition and I don't think that they get due process.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

Lose our soul? Please, don't be so dramatic. We had slavery, segregation, no women's right, etc... I think we'll be ok as a nation.

The right to due process is at the heart of our nation's founding. Sure, we have had those tragedies in the past, but 'we'll be okay as a nation' is no excuse to go backwards. Without due process, all other rights are useless. So yes, we cease to be who we are as a nation without it.

Yeah, I was very disappointed in Obama when he mentioned that. Still, they have a much better chance of getting that due process than under the previous administration. Hopefully enough of a stink will be raised so that he reverses course on that.
That sounds great except Obama supports rendition and I don't think that they get due process.

 

[StageLeft]

BTW, evidently England, at least, did have some experience with torture in WWII by the end of it, including after the fact with Communists. Some papers were recently very recently. I believe there was severe beatings and threats of unecessary surgery, but no indication the surgery actually took place.

Anyway, Cheney is a scumbag, don't listen to him. Further, the US has been torturing and should stop immediately. It's absolute bullsh*t.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Dari
..... Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

If I heard Dick correctly today he saved 100s of thousands of Americans with Gitmo and waterboarding.

Thanks, Dick!

You mock him, yet have not one iota of evidence that he's not telling the truth.

Yay, left!

You bow down and kiss his ass, and have not one iota of evidence that he is telling the truth.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Great post Omar.

I rarely agree with you, but this is true. Very well put, and correct argument.

Because who cares about thousands of American's lives when the leftists can be morally strong.

Who cares about the laws of our country, because people like you are scared to death of boogie men.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

Lose our soul? Please, don't be so dramatic. We had slavery, segregation, no women's right, etc... I think we'll be ok as a nation.

The right to due process is at the heart of our nation's founding. Sure, we have had those tragedies in the past, but 'we'll be okay as a nation' is no excuse to go backwards. Without due process, all other rights are useless. So yes, we cease to be who we are as a nation without it.

That sounds great except Obama supports rendition and I don't think that they get due process.

Yeah, I was very disappointed in Obama when he mentioned that. Still, they have a much better chance of getting that due process than under the previous administration. Hopefully enough of a stink will be raised so that he reverses course on that.

You have a lot of confidence with a man that is very vocal against torture yet quietly maintains that he will do the same if not worse with rendition.

Hope.....

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Great post Omar.

I rarely agree with you, but this is true. Very well put, and correct argument.

Because who cares about thousands of American's lives when the leftists can be morally strong.

Who cares about the laws of our country, because people like you are scared to death of boogie men.

It wasn't done in our country, was it?

Obama supports rendition, think he's scared of the boogie man?

 

[Xellos2099]

Those who think Obama is fair and all, look at what he did to Chrysler's secured creditor.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Great post Omar.

I rarely agree with you, but this is true. Very well put, and correct argument.

Because who cares about thousands of American's lives when the leftists can be morally strong.

Who cares about the laws of our country, because people like you are scared to death of boogie men.

It wasn't done in our country, was it?

Obama supports rendition, think he's scared of the boogie man?

Torture was done by US citizens. Doesn't matter where it happened. It's illegal.

I'm talking about torture, not rendition. Rendition has been used for a long time by many Presdients, but was greatly expanded (and perverted) by Bush and Cheney to break the law. Do you have a real point?

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Great post Omar.

I rarely agree with you, but this is true. Very well put, and correct argument.

Because who cares about thousands of American's lives when the leftists can be morally strong.

Who cares about the laws of our country, because people like you are scared to death of boogie men.

It wasn't done in our country, was it?

Obama supports rendition, think he's scared of the boogie man?

Torture was done by US citizens. Doesn't matter where it happened. It's illegal.

I'm talking about torture, not rendition. Rendition has been used for a long time by many Presdients, but was greatly expanded (and perverted) by Bush and Cheney to break the law. Do you have a real point?

If it's illegal somebody should be prosecuted, if Barry thought he had a case he would.

Rendition is torture and Obama supports it, but I'm not hearing you whine about him.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

Lose our soul? Please, don't be so dramatic. We had slavery, segregation, no women's right, etc... I think we'll be ok as a nation.

The right to due process is at the heart of our nation's founding. Sure, we have had those tragedies in the past, but 'we'll be okay as a nation' is no excuse to go backwards. Without due process, all other rights are useless. So yes, we cease to be who we are as a nation without it.

That sounds great except Obama supports rendition and I don't think that they get due process.

Yeah, I was very disappointed in Obama when he mentioned that. Still, they have a much better chance of getting that due process than under the previous administration. Hopefully enough of a stink will be raised so that he reverses course on that.

You have a lot of confidence with a man that is very vocal against torture yet quietly maintains that he will do the same if not worse with rendition.

Hope.....

Hope may be the correct word, but that doesn't mean that I have a lot of it. Sure, he is better than the last guy, but I don't support him unconditionally. You are correct in your assessment that he is quietly maintaining some similar positions to the Bush administration, and that is what worries me about him.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
If it's illegal somebody should be prosecuted, if Barry thought he had a case he would.

Rendition is torture and Obama supports it, but I'm not hearing you whine about him.

It's hard to take someone seriosuly when they use juvenile names like "Barry". Why don't you just call him Osama and be done with it? If you want to debate or discuss this with other adults, act like one.

Rendition isn't torture, and is a whole different subject. Get a clue. Start a thread about rendition if you really want to discuss that.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Hope may be the correct word, but that doesn't mean that I have a lot of it. Sure, he is better than the last guy, but I don't support him unconditionally. You are correct in your assessment that he is quietly maintaining some similar positions to the Bush administration, and that is what worries me about him.

I can appreciate your principals.

:beer:

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

And for all the neo-con faithful, please don't forget this article:

Gestapo torture

Read how the Gestapo waterboarded and tortured resistance members in WWII, and they too tried to say it wasn't torture, but "enhanced interrogation". They even used the same arguments that Bush/Cheney have put forward to defend their illegal acts.

Funny (not really) how that works. Bush/Cheney using a 60 year old Gestapo argument to try and show they are right. Of course, Nuremberg kinda proved that argument was BS, but don't let facts stand in the way of your partisan blinders.

There is no doubt that Bush/Cheney broke the law. The only thing is if we will let them get away with it. And thanks to neocons lying about this, and spineless politicians that only want to get re-elected, it might happen. Pretty disgusting.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Why not put up a poll, see which policy people back more, Obama's or Cheney's. I think we all know what the results will show.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Harvey,

You know as much about the truth as you do about facts, that's why you refuse to debate and you resort to name calling and belittling people on this forum that you disagree with.


Feel free to talk about Obama and his support of rendition, that's if you can put the kool-aid down.

Tom -- You know about as much about being a human being as you do about logical discussion. If you want to discuss anything you believe Obama has done that is illegal, immoral, unethical or even fattening, you can always start a thread about it. If you're right, I'll agree with you that the law should be enforced regarding whatever crimes you can prove he has committed.

That said, one crime does not excuse or justify another, and NOTHING Obama has done, is doing or may do in the future excuses or justifies the crimes we KNOW were committed by your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals and war profiteers. They are a festering wound to the honor of our nation on, a bloody stain on our history and an embarrassment to every American citizen and to humanity.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Why not put up a poll, see which policy people back more, Obama's or Cheney's. I think we all know what the results will show.

Why? What does it matter to people of character they are outnumbered by moral lepers.

 

[aphex]

Obama seems to have this idealism that torture is bad

Wow.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Why not put up a poll, see which policy people back more, Obama's or Cheney's. I think we all know what the results will show.

Why? What does it matter to people of character they are outnumbered by moral lepers.

Because it's a simple distillation of the issue that is easy to use to answer the overall OP, without being clouded by incessant off topic ramblings.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Harvey,

You know as much about the truth as you do about facts, that's why you refuse to debate and you resort to name calling and belittling people on this forum that you disagree with.


Feel free to talk about Obama and his support of rendition, that's if you can put the kool-aid down.

Tom -- You know about as much about being a human being as you do about logical discussion. If you want to discuss anything you believe Obama has done that is illegal, immoral, unethical or even fattening, you can always start a thread about it. If you're right, I'll agree with you that the law should be enforced regarding whatever crimes you can prove he has committed.

That said, one crime does not excuse or justify another, and NOTHING Obama has done, is doing or may do in the future excuses or justifies the crimes we KNOW were committed by your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals and war profiteers. They are a festering wound to the honor of our nation on, a bloody stain on our history and an embarrassment to every American citizen and to humanity.

I'm glad you've finally come around and are calling Bush and EX-Traitor in Chief.. I can only take that to mean that you really do support what he did to help protect our country.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We didn't torture Nazi officials during WW2 and they posed a much bigger threat in every single way than Al Qaeda does. That alone should seal the debate. We literally had American soldiers dying by the thousands every day in France and we still stood morally above torture.

Think about it for a second. The greatest threat to Western Civilization, the most technologically advanced military of it's time, and by far, the most morally corrupt regime and organization to ever exist and we didn't torture any of the people involved. How exactly does Al Qaeda compare to Nazi Germany? If we stood above torture during WW2 then we ought to stand above torture now.

We had a morally weak President, a morally corrupt Vice President and a Defense Department willing to look the other way. Cheney has egg on his face and is trying to tell us that it saved us from bears, because obviously, there are no bears around. The bottomline about torture is that it very rarely works.

Or maybe they didn't want to see thousands of Americans die.

You mistake cause for effect. Torturing people will not stop attacks, in fact, they will probably spur many more than they will prevent.

How would have torturing capturing Nazi officials prevented deaths? They wouldn't have, that's the answer.

The torture of individuals involved in Al Qaeda has given suspect information and goaded us into an ill-planned war in Iraq. This is not the way you get actionable intelligence, because people will say anything under torture to make it stop.

 

[SViscusi]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Those who think Obama is fair and all, look at what he did to Chrysler's secured creditor.

What by calling their bluff and not bailing them out? That monster.