Obama v. Cheney

[Dari]

Obama seems to have this idealism that torture is bad and is willing to put his reputation (and the country's security) on the line for it. Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it. Do you guys think it's wise for Obama to put so much effort into trying to steer a new course with regard to the torture issue? He's only been in power a couple of months. I think he should be more discreet. After all, he's never been in uniform and his primary supporters (on the coasts) have never either.

God forbid, should this country ever be attacked under his Administration, rightly or wrongly, Obama will end up looking like an ass.

EDIT: Just as with the swine flu (or any other threats), I prefer to over react than under react. Hindsight is too perfect to judge people.

EDIT 2: And where are the other Republican leaders in this fight? It seems like they're sitting on the sidelines while Cheney and Limbaugh, two of the most detested people in the party, take up the fight on this.

 

[Budmantom]

Obama isn't against torture, he supports rendition, he's campaigning against Bush.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Dari
God forbid, should this country ever be attacked under his Administration, rightly or wrongly, Obama will end up looking like an ass.

I think Obama would look like an ass regardless of his torture stance.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Dari
God forbid, should this country ever be attacked under his Administration, rightly or wrongly, Obama will end up looking like an ass.

I think Obama would look like an ass regardless of his torture stance.

True, but steering a different course and getting attacked will lead people to presume that the new course was the cause of the attack. He will look worse. I think he should stop putting himself above the needs of the country. I think he should stop trying to embarrass or shame the Bush Administration over this issue. It just isn't worth it, IMHO.

 

[sportage]

This has nothing to do with torture.
This is simply a republican trying to mend his party,
save what he can, by redirecting the issue.
It workd in the past.
And too, Cheney is attempting to put lipstick on that
pig of an administration we suffered thru for 8 years.
There is total zero evidence anything they did after 9/11
made one ounce of difference in protecting us.

Remember, when it comes to attacks on the US,
9/11, the mother of all attacks, happened under GW.
Thats a fact.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Dari
..... Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

If I heard Dick correctly today he saved 100s of thousands of Americans with Gitmo and waterboarding.

Thanks, Dick!

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

So us being safe for the last 8 years means nothing and if we were attacked it would prove that torture doesn't work....... now that's logic.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Dari
God forbid, should this country ever be attacked under his Administration, rightly or wrongly, Obama will end up looking like an ass.

I think Obama would look like an ass regardless of his torture stance.

True, but steering a different course and getting attacked will lead people to presume that the new course was the cause of the attack. He will look worse. I think he should stop putting himself above the needs of the country. I think he should stop trying to embarrass or shame the Bush Administration over this issue. It just isn't worth it, IMHO.

I doubt that the terrorists would want to interrupt Obama's work.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

So us being safe for the last 8 years means nothing and if we were attacked it would prove that torture doesn't work....... now that's logic.

You're full of shit. It proves nothing.

• You have absolutely NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture prevented any attacks, whatsoever.
  
• You have NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture was even true.
  
• You have even less evidence that any "information" gained through torture that may have been true would not have been gained sooner without torture.

YOU and the rest of the torture maniacs are a greater threat to American democracy and freedom than the worst of the worst of Al Qaeda and all the Al Qaeda wannabes. At least, THEY admit they're out to destroy us while you tell us the only way to save our nation is to destroy everything Americans have fought and died to defend for over two hundred years. :thumbsdown: :|

Even worse, they're there, and you're running free, HERE! :shocked:

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

So us being safe for the last 8 years means nothing and if we were attacked it would prove that torture doesn't work....... now that's logic.

You're full of shit. It proves nothing.

• You have absolutely NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture prevented any attacks, whatsoever.
  
• You have NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture was even true.
  
• You have even less evidence that any "information" gained through torture that may have been true would not have been gained sooner without torture.

All you have proven is that YOU are a greater threat to American democracy and freedom than the worst of the worst of Al Qaeda and all the Al Qaeda wannabes because, at least, THEY admit they're out to destroy us while you and the rest of the torture maniacs are telling us it's to save our nation by destroying everything we stand for. :thumbsdown: :|

Even worse, they're there, and you're running free, HERE! :shocked:

Harvey as always you have a way with words.

Are you refering to our president, because he supports rendition......

 

[0marTheZealot]

We didn't torture Nazi officials during WW2 and they posed a much bigger threat in every single way than Al Qaeda does. That alone should seal the debate. We literally had American soldiers dying by the thousands every day in France and we still stood morally above torture.

Think about it for a second. The greatest threat to Western Civilization, the most technologically advanced military of it's time, and by far, the most morally corrupt regime and organization to ever exist and we didn't torture any of the people involved. How exactly does Al Qaeda compare to Nazi Germany? If we stood above torture during WW2 then we ought to stand above torture now.

We had a morally weak President, a morally corrupt Vice President and a Defense Department willing to look the other way. Cheney has egg on his face and is trying to tell us that it saved us from bears, because obviously, there are no bears around. The bottomline about torture is that it very rarely works.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Are you refering to our president, because he supports rendition......

Why wasn't Bush able to prevent 9/11?

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We didn't torture Nazi officials during WW2 and they posed a much bigger threat in every single way than Al Qaeda does. That alone should seal the debate. We literally had American soldiers dying by the thousands every day in France and we still stood morally above torture.

Think about it for a second. The greatest threat to Western Civilization, the most technologically advanced military of it's time, and by far, the most morally corrupt regime and organization to ever exist and we didn't torture any of the people involved. How exactly does Al Qaeda compare to Nazi Germany? If we stood above torture during WW2 then we ought to stand above torture now.

We had a morally weak President, a morally corrupt Vice President and a Defense Department willing to look the other way. Cheney has egg on his face and is trying to tell us that it saved us from bears, because obviously, there are no bears around. The bottomline about torture is that it very rarely works.

Or maybe they didn't want to see thousands of Americans die.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

Cheney saying it works doesn't make it so.

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Cheney, 2005

So us being safe for the last 8 years means nothing and if we were attacked it would prove that torture doesn't work....... now that's logic.

You're full of shit. It proves nothing.

• You have absolutely NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture prevented any attacks, whatsoever.
  
• You have NO evidence that ANY information allegedly gained through torture was even true.
  
• You have even less evidence that any "information" gained through torture that may have been true would not have been gained sooner without torture.

All you have proven is that YOU are a greater threat to American democracy and freedom than the worst of the worst of Al Qaeda and all the Al Qaeda wannabes because, at least, THEY admit they're out to destroy us while you and the rest of the torture maniacs are telling us it's to save our nation by destroying everything we stand for. :thumbsdown: :|

Even worse, they're there, and you're running free, HERE! :shocked:

Harvey as always you have a way with words.

I'm glad you noticed. It's called the truth. :light:

Are you refering to our president, because he supports rendition......

No, I'm referring to you.

 

[Budmantom]

Great post Omar.

 

[Jaskalas]

I believe Harvey just left his fingerprints on that right wing terrorist memo that came out of homeland last month. After all, Republicans are public enemy #1.

 

[MovingTarget]

Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: Harvey

I'm glad you noticed. It's called the truth. :light:

Are you refering to our president, because he supports rendition......

No, I'm referring to you.

Harvey,

You know as much about the truth as you do about facts, that's why you refuse to debate and you resort to name calling and belittling people on this forum that you disagree with.


Feel free to talk about Obama and his support of rendition, that's if you can put the kool-aid down.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We didn't torture Nazi officials during WW2 and they posed a much bigger threat in every single way than Al Qaeda does. That alone should seal the debate. We literally had American soldiers dying by the thousands every day in France and we still stood morally above torture.

Think about it for a second. The greatest threat to Western Civilization, the most technologically advanced military of it's time, and by far, the most morally corrupt regime and organization to ever exist and we didn't torture any of the people involved. How exactly does Al Qaeda compare to Nazi Germany? If we stood above torture during WW2 then we ought to stand above torture now.

We had a morally weak President, a morally corrupt Vice President and a Defense Department willing to look the other way. Cheney has egg on his face and is trying to tell us that it saved us from bears, because obviously, there are no bears around. The bottomline about torture is that it very rarely works.

I think we fought mainly the German Army, which followed the laws of war. The Nazis, on the other hand, had special units and we fought them as well. I'm not sure if we did torture them. (I'm sure our Soviet partners did and they shared intelligence with us. I doubt Roosevelt gave a damn about the human rights of Nazis when they were killing millions of innocent people.) However, Nazi Germany and Al Qaeda are two different beasts, as has been explained countless times.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

Lose our soul? Please, don't be so dramatic. We had slavery, segregation, no women's right, etc... I think we'll be ok as a nation.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

Lose our soul? Please, don't be so dramatic. We had slavery, segregation, no women's right, etc... I think we'll be ok as a nation.

Wowowowowow!

 

[dali71]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Dari
..... Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

If I heard Dick correctly today he saved 100s of thousands of Americans with Gitmo and waterboarding.

Thanks, Dick!

It's easy to be smug when the Obama administration refuses to declassify the 2 CIA reports which show just how effective the detainee program was. This seems to contradict the memorandum he released on his 2nd day in office, which stated:

?The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails. The Government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears?All agencies should adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure, in order to renew their commitment to the principles embodied in FOIA, and to usher in a new era of open Government. The presumption of disclosure should be applied to all decisions involving FOIA.?

And when Attorney General Eric Holder was asked about the documents in question, he replied:

?It is certainly the intention of this administration not to play hide and seek or not to release certain things in a way that is not consistent with other things. It is not our intention to try to advance a political agenda or to hide things from the American people.?

The most transparent administration in history? Give me a break.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Although Omar does invoke Godwin, he is right on the $$. Dick Cheney is not someone we should follow with his 'ends justify the means' moral compass wrt terrorism. If we continued to do so, we would lose our soul as a nation as it goes against everything we stand for. EVERYONE has the right to due process, even terrorists. NOBODY should ever be tortured, regardless of the threat they pose. The real world has no place for the likes of Jack Bauer wannabes running hte show.

Lose our soul? Please, don't be so dramatic. We had slavery, segregation, no women's right, etc... I think we'll be ok as a nation.

The right to due process is at the heart of our nation's founding. Sure, we have had those tragedies in the past, but 'we'll be okay as a nation' is no excuse to go backwards. Without due process, all other rights are useless. So yes, we cease to be who we are as a nation without it.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Dari
..... Cheney thinks it works in practice and he has 8 years to back him up on it.

If I heard Dick correctly today he saved 100s of thousands of Americans with Gitmo and waterboarding.

Thanks, Dick!

You mock him, yet have not one iota of evidence that he's not telling the truth.

Yay, left!