Obama urging for $50B spending to cover states' shortcomings.

[IndyColtsFan]

Negative.

Positive. Bober is correct. I tend to lump you in with guys like senseamp, who has never found a problem that the government can't "solve." And by solve, I mean royally screw up at huge expense.

 

[sandorski]

I am going to make this really simple for you. When you don't have money, you have to cut spending. You cannot continue borrowing forever.

More and more money has been thrown at education repeatedly and the results aren't there to justify it. It isn't necessarily the fault of the teachers and schools; it is primarily the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids get an education and many just don't value an education. It is time to cut our losses as the kids who want to learn will learn, and the kids that don't want to learn won't. You cannot force a kid to learn.

Of course, but who says they're going to. There's this thing called a Recession that has mucked things up. Just 10 Years ago there was an Operating Surplus and it wasn't Education or any other Infrastructure Spending that ballooned to this Deficit. So quit acting like that's the cause of this Deficit.

Until the Economy fully recovers, there's going to be Deficits.

 

[sandorski]

Positive. Bober is correct. I tend to lump you in with guys like senseamp, who has never found a problem that the government can't "solve." And by solve, I mean royally screw up at huge expense.

Strawman Fail. Bober too. Sorry, but it is you who has Failed and continues on that path.

 

[Craig234]

increasing class sizes or shifting to like a 4-day school week isn't cutting essential services.

You've got a boiling the frog problem here.

How about we have 1 teacher teach every student in Tenneessee? Well, I guess that won't work, so SOME level of cut is 'essential services'. Whether it's increasing class size 30 to 35. 45. to 40. 40 to 45... 100 to 105... 200 to 205... and so on, when do you say 'we should have more teachers'?

Each cut reduces the quality of education, and that has a negative effect on long term productivity.

Similarly the '4-day school week'. If that's ok (parents having to deal with it working 5 days), how about 3.5-day? 3-day? 2.5-day? 1-day? When do you say 'we shouldn't cut'?

The thing is, all this bickering about the details of cutting services ignores larger questions like the subsidising of big corporate activities in 'race to the bottom' competitions with other states to 'buy' things like getting a new factory located (we'll pay for new roads and infrustructure for you, we'll give you land, exempt you from property taxes, relax worker right, and so on), the undertaxation of wealthy interests as the concentration of wealth skyrockets, and so on.

So the cuts - which often are important to do somewhere - keep coming from 'the public' rather than where they'd be better for the public.

There's little appreciation for the need to invest in the public's well being, before we move more and more to a more third-world like split between the rich and poor, with less middle.

One basic point often missed is the benefit of the state to need to spend -even deficit - in a downturn to replace lost consumer and business spending.

That doesn't change the long term need for fiscal restraint, but I hear about zero understanding from the right about the need for downturn spending.

One issue that can use some national solution is the 'race to the bottom' issue I mentioned. When politicians give away the store for a corporate expansion they can hype to get re-elected, the price is paid by the public, but there's not much to do by a state alone about that. That'll result in further and further corporate economic dominance and public loss. We already have a huge number of corporations - many of the biggest in the world - paying no income tax.

If you want a lot more BP's having a lot more 'accidents' that are cost-effective for them, little government oversight or holding them accountable, then keep doing that.

The thing is, too many on the right don't consider the cost of cutting programs, in human and financial terms. Sometimes, you cut a dollar, and it costs you $2 in the long run.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Strawman Fail. Bober too. Sorry, but it is you who has Failed and continues on that path.

No, I am quite correct. With you guys, it is always "look to the government for a solution" first, not last as it should be.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Of course, but who says they're going to.

Who says they won't? And to be clear here, we're talking about the FEDERAL government borrowing money to prop up the states.

There's this thing called a Recession that has mucked things up. Just 10 Years ago there was an Operating Surplus and it wasn't Education or any other Infrastructure Spending that ballooned to this Deficit. So quit acting like that's the cause of this Deficit.

Until the Economy fully recovers, there's going to be Deficits.

There will be deficits after the economy recovers. There were deficits before the economy tanked. See the pattern? Instead of addressing the core issues and making infrastructural changes to avert deficits in the good times and running small deficits in the bad times, the motto is "spend, spend, spend." I could get into specifics (ie, military spending should be drastically cut), but that is another thread.

 

[sandorski]

No, I am quite correct. With you guys, it is always "look to the government for a solution" first, not last as it should be.

No, it is not. Strawman Fail...again. Thanks for making Skoorbs Quote applicable though.

 

[sandorski]

Who says they won't? And to be clear here, we're talking about the FEDERAL government borrowing money to prop up the states.



There will be deficits after the economy recovers. There were deficits before the economy tanked. See the pattern? Instead of addressing the core issues and making infrastructural changes to avert deficits in the good times and running small deficits in the bad times, the motto is "spend, spend, spend." I could get into specifics (ie, military spending should be drastically cut), but that is another thread.

Like I said, 10 years ago with issue was Solved. Examine the last 10 Years to see where the fault lies.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Like I said, 10 years ago with issue was Solved. Examine the last 10 Years to see where the fault lies.

Let me guess: "Bu...Bu....Bush!!!!"

Uh, no. BOTH parties are equally at fault. BOTH parties are out-of-control spendaholics.

By the way, to "solve" the problem, here is what should be done:

Instead of addressing the core issues and making infrastructural changes to avert deficits in the good times and running small deficits in the bad times, the motto is "spend, spend, spend." I could get into specifics (ie, military spending should be drastically cut), but that is another thread.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

No, it is not. Strawman Fail...again. Thanks for making Skoorbs Quote applicable though.

It is an observation, and an accurate one at that. I don't believe I've ever seen you advocate a non-government solution to a problem but if you have, please show me so I can be amazed and shocked.

 

[sandorski]

Let me guess: "Bu...Bu....Bush!!!!"

Uh, no. BOTH parties are equally at fault. BOTH parties are out-of-control spendaholics.

Not "Bu...Bu....Bush", just Bush. Look at the last 10 years, then explain to me how it is not the case. Your deflections are weak and pathetic. If you want the Truth, it's right in front of you.

 

[sandorski]

How is it a strawman? It is an observation, and an accurate one at that. I don't believe I've ever seen you advocate a non-government solution to a problem but if you have, please show me so I can be amazed and shocked.

Nope, Fail.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Not "Bu...Bu....Bush", just Bush. Look at the last 10 years, then explain to me how it is not the case. Your deflections are weak and pathetic. If you want the Truth, it's right in front of you.

The Democrats were right there with Bush and I'm sure behind closed doors, they all winked and nodded at one another. You guys want to blame everyone else without admitting that the Democrats are just as much to blame.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Nope, Fail.

Fail.

 

[sandorski]

The Democrats were right there with Bush and I'm sure behind closed doors, they all winked and nodded at one another. You guys want to blame everyone else without admitting that the Democrats are just as much to blame.

You're sure of it are ya? More Strawman, more Fail.

 

[nick1985]

You're sure of it are ya? More Strawman, more Fail.

You really dont think both parties have let us down when it comes to spending?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You're sure of it are ya? More Strawman, more Fail.

Strawman, indeed. Quite predictably, your argument has devolved to "Bu...bu..Bush! Democrats good, everyone else bad!" Thanks for proving MotF Bane right.

Let's tackle this from a different angle. What SHOULD be done in this case? I'm all ears.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You really dont think both parties have let us down when it comes to spending?

Sandorski likes to throw around "strawman" and "fail" because it allows him to dodge the questions.

 

[sandorski]

Sandorski likes to throw around "strawman" and "fail" because it allows him to dodge the questions.

Nah, you like to use Strawman arguments to dodge the answers.

 

[MotF Bane]

Strawman, indeed. Quite predictably, your argument has devolved to "Bu...bu..Bush! Democrats good, everyone else bad!" Thanks for proving MotF Bane right.

Let's tackle this from a different angle. What SHOULD be done in this case? I'm all ears.

I'm a Pats fan, of course I'm right. :twisted:

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Nah, you like to use Strawman arguments to dodge the answers.

More deflection and dodging. Typical.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I'm a Pats fan, of course I'm right. :twisted:

Hey, no one's perfect. But if it is any consolation, I am so desperate for the NFL season to begin that I would almost consider watching a Pats game if that were my only option.

 

[piasabird]

Quit paying all the 100,000 + salaries. Just cut a little all accross the board including teacher's salaries, fire fighters, Police, etc. Teachers arent the only employees. They just try to cut the teacher's salaries first because it hurts children. Get up and quit being so stupid. Kick all Illegals out of school and deport them. It is so simple. You dont have money so dont spend it. If a few criminals get away or a few more houses burn up, who cares. Quit trying to chase down drug dealers and look for people with guns instead.

 

[Attic]

This is what happens when you incentivise spending and bail out those who get in trouble when they over spend.

Why are they states going to cut spending when the know damn well their getting bailed out by taxpayers?

Incentivise proper behavior and this wasteful spending may stop.

 

[Slew Foot]

Not "Bu...Bu....Bush", just Bush. Look at the last 10 years, then explain to me how it is not the case. Your deflections are weak and pathetic. If you want the Truth, it's right in front of you.

10 years ago was the peak of the internet bubble. Everything is Clintons fault for letting that get out of hand.