Obama to sign executive order on Immigration Reform

[nixium]

We don't work on a solution because there is no common ground between the left and the right, exclusive of the Pubbies' elite. The left needs and wants these people here, and will only accept solutions to that end. The right does not need or want these people here, and will only accept solutions to that end. Time after time we've compromised; time after time the amnesty and welfare provisions take effect, but the increased border security and increased enforcement becomes decreased border security and decreased enforcement. There's not even a bump where we can pretend otherwise.

Given that, why would we continue to help the Dems fundamentally transform America into Mexico? We LIKE America. We like America a lot more than Mexico.

Beyond that, why would anyone simply go along with a President giving himself dictatorial powers to unilaterally change the law?

OK, fair enough - I see where you're coming from. But this still doesn't explain my original point. If security + deportation is the only thing the right wants, why isn't the house trying to do anything about it? That's what infuriates me - why maintain the status quo? There is never going to be a point (IMO) where there is enough support in all three chambers for security + deportation-only approach. In your opinion, pragmatically, what should be done?

 

[OrByte]

I am proud he is doing this.

Its not permanent, when it comes time to expire it will have to be dealt with. Brilliant move imo.

I am in agreement.

I say to hell with the politics in Washington and it's about damn time someone (Obama) takes a risk and tries to breakup the logjam of stupidity out there.

If it's broke, help be a part of the solution.

 

[nixium]

A genuine question for the hardcore left wing:

What power (if any) do you feel Obama absolutely does not have, even if he really really wants it and sees a desperate need for it?

So I'm not hardcore left, but in this specific case I think he's only using two powers:

1. The power to pick and choose whom to deport - he's choosing not to deport people with US citizens in the country

2. The power to grand employment authorization to whomever he wants.

So I don't believe Obama is emperor - just pushing the limits of what he can do legally.

 

[OrByte]

OK, fair enough - I see where you're coming from. But this still doesn't explain my original point. If security + deportation is the only thing the right wants, why isn't the house trying to do anything about it? That's what infuriates me - why maintain the status quo? There is never going to be a point (IMO) where there is enough support in all three chambers for security + deportation-only approach. In your opinion, pragmatically, what should be done?

booshit don't agree with werepossum.

he is using false premises all over his argument.

Where does it say that ALL dems want America to be mexico and all Republicans are the only friggin REAL PATRIOTS protecting american jobs and freedoms herdeherhurrhurr..

don't give him that moral highground...thats BS.

 

[nixium]

I am in agreement.

I say to hell with the politics in Washington and it's about damn time someone (Obama) takes a risk and tries to breakup the logjam of stupidity out there.

If it's broke, help be a part of the solution.

Totally agree, the logjam thing is ridiculous.

Maybe this will make congress actually pass laws, as they are required to do and for which they are voted into power (and paid for).

 

[nixium]

booshit don't agree with werepossum.

he is using false premises all over his argument.

Where does it say that ALL dems want America to be mexico and all Republicans are the only friggin REAL PATRIOTS protecting american jobs and freedoms herdeherhurrhurr..

don't give him that moral highground...thats BS.

I'm not taking his side, I just understand his motivations... I don't agree with him, but I want to see what drives the thought process.

Also, in general he's one of the few on this board that have reasonable views, so it's worth engaging in honest debate.

Notice I'm not extending the same to Michal.

 

[ivwshane]

There really is no wrong that man can do is there?

Of course he can and he has, I don't need to make up shit and exaggerate in order to talk about the things I disagree with.

But the biggest two issues I have regarding policies he supports are: supporting the patriot act and his Middle East policy.

Can you list any policies he supports that you like what he pushed for?

 

[OrByte]

I'm not taking his side, I just understand his motivations... I don't agree with him, but I want to see what drives the thought process.

someone earlier said words have meaning...

just read the words that people like werepossum are using to POSITION their argument.

read their words....

edit: and DON'T let them get away with it...Lazy logic and reasoning is why we are in so much shit these days.

 

[Fern]

Exactly. I don't understand how the do-nothing attitude of the house gets a pass.

I don't see any "do-nothing attitude".

They've been struggling with this, and fighting about it, for some time.

There's too much disagreement in too many areas.

Here's a list of articles regarding immigration bills in the House: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/house-immigration-bill/

There are probably better sites, but this is sufficient to show the constant battles in the House.

Fern

 

[Fern]

I am in agreement.

I say to hell with the politics in Washington and it's about damn time someone (Obama) takes a risk and tries to breakup the logjam of stupidity out there.

If it's broke, help be a part of the solution.

I don't see how Obama, by a wave of his hand granting Green Cards (or whatever he intends to do here), is fixing anything. After these 5 million or so get them, what has really changed with our immigration system? I contend exactly nothing. If you think differently, pls explain.

Fern

 

[highland145]

Help me out.

If we legalize these millions, then is the only upside more D voters?

They are low wage/skilled so they will take the "just over" minimum wage jobs from Americans and get paid the minimum.

They will suck more $$ in resources than they will ever pay in taxes/ss. Especially if they get the EITC.

The income gap that we hear so much about will increase significantly.

The middle class will be squeezed like a melon.

I'm not seeing an upside. And while the "big companies want cheap labor" argument might be true, they should be fined to the hilt if they knowingly hire illegals...at a minimum. I'd rather their assets be seized.

So what's the upside for America?

 

[ivwshane]

I don't see any "do-nothing attitude".

They've been struggling with this, and fighting about it, for some time.

There's too much disagreement in too many areas.

Here's a list of articles regarding immigration bills in the House: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/house-immigration-bill/

There are probably better sites, but this is sufficient to show the constant battles in the House.

Fern

You are going to have to be a little more specific. Of the articles I looked at, some were about the house brining up the senate bill and others were about boehner talking about bringing up immigration reform. I didn't see any that actually talking about a current proposal the republicans in the house were working on, so please post that link

 

[OrByte]

I don't see how Obama, by a wave of his hand granting Green Cards (or whatever he intends to do here), is fixing anything. After these 5 million or so get them, what has really changed with our immigration system? I contend exactly nothing. If you think differently, pls explain.

Fern

I will explain. And I'm glad you asked.

True story: I work in an organization that has a team. A team of dopes. These dopes do their job, they hold hostage everyone elses needs, business, and priorities...all so that they get thier needs met first.

this is an organization of +25,000 people. This team of dopes consists of roughly 11 individuals.

And this team cannot be moved, rotated, or otherwise changed.

So change their work. Change the landscape around them, force a difference...and that eventually may lead to a positive outcome for the organization.

Obama isn't fixing anything directly by this move, but he is forcing a change in the landscape...relative to the immigration issue. He is changing the rules that have locked up the "dopes" from serving the larger organization as a whole.

I think ultimately he is sending a message to congress: "get to work DOPES"

Edit: and I KNOW you would support a President that does something like that Fern.

 

[ivwshane]

I don't see how Obama, by a wave of his hand granting Green Cards (or whatever he intends to do here), is fixing anything. After these 5 million or so get them, what has really changed with our immigration system? I contend exactly nothing. If you think differently, pls explain.

Fern

His executive actions will not fix anything and they aren't meant to. The whole point in this exercise is to get the fucking piece of shit congress to do something, more specifically to get the lazy republican leeches in the house to do something.


My hope is that tonight obama will outline what action he plans to take and that he will set a date when that action will happen and he will talk about the inaction by the house republicans and basically give them a choice: do your fucking job and come up with a solution or I'll do what I can.

 

[ivwshane]

Lol! Jinx!

I will explain. And I'm glad you asked.

True story: I work in an organization that has a team. A team of dopes. These dopes do their job, they hold hostage everyone elses needs, business, and priorities...all so that they get thier needs met first.

this is an organization of +25,000 people. This team of dopes consists of roughly 11 individuals.

And this team cannot be moved, rotated, or otherwise changed.

So change their work. Change the landscape around them, force a difference...and that eventually may lead to a positive outcome for the organization.

Obama isn't fixing anything directly by this move, but he is forcing a change in the landscape...relative to the immigration issue. He is changing the rules that have locked up the "dopes" from serving the larger organization as a whole.

I think ultimately he is sending a message to congress: "get to work DOPES"

 

[OrByte]

Lol! Jinx!

 

[K1052]

Well the republican pre-speech possible retaliations listed range from endless investigations, blockading his nominations, and possibly shutting down the government.

So basically business as usual for Congress.

 

[Fern]

OrByte and ivwshane

What is it exactly about our current immigration laws that you think need fixed?

Or, to put it another way, some think the current immigration laws are fine but the problem is that they are not enforced.

Ple tell me how they are wrong and what changes are needed.

TIA

Fern

 

[Matt1970]

Of course he can and he has, I don't need to make up shit and exaggerate in order to talk about the things I disagree with.

But the biggest two issues I have regarding policies he supports are: supporting the patriot act and his Middle East policy.

Can you list any policies he supports that you like what he pushed for?

I agreed more with candidate Obama than President Obama. I was with him on military cuts but Obama flipped on that after the sequestration.

 

[Fern]

Well the republican pre-speech possible retaliations listed range from endless investigations, blockading his nominations, and possibly shutting down the government.

So basically business as usual for Congress.

Yeah, I'm thinking the Repubs should threaten to overturn the EO and take the paperwork identifying the 5 million illegals and threaten to use it to deport them. Who wants to sign up now?

Of course, they shouldn't make that public, just do it if they win the Presidency.

Fern

 

[CADsortaGUY]

So now it's not an executive order but instead he's going to hide behind a "memo" and have the dept do his bidding for him? Slimy rat.

 

[OrByte]

OrByte and ivwshane

What is it exactly about our current immigration laws that you think need fixed?

Or, to put it another way, some think the current immigration laws are fine but the problem is that they are not enforced.

Ple tell me how they are wrong and what changes are needed.

TIA

Fern

No I'm not playing that game Fern. If I could answer those questions you think I'd be wasting my time here on a forum board?


Please.

All I will say that if there isn't any problem Fern...if there is nothing wrong then why the big hubub? Hell republicans are alarmed that there will be violence in the streets tonight!!! Gasp!!

I'm headed home now all...check back later!

 

[OrByte]

So now it's not an executive order but instead he's going to hide behind a "memo" and have the dept do his bidding for him? Slimy rat.

You mean he's going to ....govern...like a POTUS?

The nerve....

 

[CADsortaGUY]

You mean he's going to ....govern...like a POTUS?

The nerve....

Ummm... no. If he was a leader he wouldn't be doing this and making a big spectacle of it.

 

[Fern]

No I'm not playing that game Fern. If I could answer those questions you think I'd be wasting my time here on a forum board?


Please.

All I will say that if there isn't any problem Fern...if there is nothing wrong then why the big hubub? Hell republicans are alarmed that there will be violence in the streets tonight!!! Gasp!!

I'm headed home now all...check back later!

Lack of border security IMO, at least as far as many conservatives are concerned.

What is the "hubub" for those on the left?

Fern