Obama signals "flexibility" on Iraq withdrwal

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: lupi
The rationalizing is strong in this thread.

I'm surprised that you bare bothered that the next president of the United States has the ability to view circumstances, whether it be the war or the election and adapt. That was Bushes short falling and his inability to adapt or think on his feet (or even think at all)which has led this country into the mess it is now in.

I will agree on the criticisms of those who think Obama is the next Messiah. He's not, he's just the best option we have now for our next president. Do I wish we had a better option, you bet but we didn't have any during the primaries or now.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Will the real Barak Obama please stand up. I don't get this guy...maybe the debates with help define just who he is and what his vision of change and hope is. Right now it all appears to be political rhetoric designed to moderate his image...I don't get any read on his true convictions. Who is this guy? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Genx87]

Surprise surprise.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm surprised that you bare bothered that the next president of the United States has the ability to view circumstances, whether it be the war or the election and adapt. That was Bushes short falling and his inability to adapt or think on his feet (or even think at all)which has led this country into the mess it is now in.

You are deranged. Bush has done exactly that with the surge, yet you continue to brush its success off as too little too late.

 

[Zebo]

Obama's antiwar supporters are going to be sorely disappointed the more they find out about him. You don't raise the kind of money he has without being bought and paid for by the MIC. Also, you don't raise his money without lobbiests in general despite what he tells you.

OTOH Obama's detractors have nothing to fear as he's not some populist socialist maverick but same ole establishment candidate.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm surprised that you bare bothered that the next president of the United States has the ability to view circumstances, whether it be the war or the election and adapt. That was Bushes short falling and his inability to adapt or think on his feet (or even think at all)which has led this country into the mess it is now in.

You are deranged. Bush has done exactly that with the surge, yet you continue to brush its success off as too little too late.

Yeah after 5 years of stubbornly ignoring the advice of our Military leaders. It is too little too later for all those American Servicemen and women who have died or been maimed because of his inability to adapt and listen to those who actually know what they are talking about. Of course if he had listened to those who know what they are talking about we would have never invaded Iraq in the first place.

 

[Xavier434]

Whatever...he will still get them out a lot faster than McCain. How much more is there to debate about other than that?

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Sawyer
LOL Change

*apologists in 3...2...*

No shit.

This is getting pathetic.

Next up: "Well, maybe a few permanent bases."

:roll:

Hmmm since I am seeing "flip-flopping" on both sides then I hardly call it pathetic.

It looks as though BHO is moving closer to the center, I wish McCain would do the same instead of moving away from the center and more to the fringe.

good ol politics.

Please, McCain is getting killed on the Repub side because he's to close to the center. Have you read his stances on illegal immigration, taxes, abortion and universal healthcare? All pretty center of the road. The only things he got the far right on is guns and Iraq.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: loki8481
really, it's just funny that the Obamites trashed Hillary for the same kind of centrist appeasement that they're giving Obama a pass on now.

And futher apologizing for it by claiming "all candidates do this". :roll:

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: CPA

Please, McCain is getting killed on the Repub side because he's to close to the center. Have you read his stances on illegal immigration, taxes, abortion and universal healthcare? All pretty center of the road. The only things he got the far right on is guns and Iraq.

Please explain how McCain's stance on taxes or abortion is 'middle of the road'. (he was rated a flat ZERO by NARAL.) He is a big supporter of Bush's tax cuts and wants to make more like them, this is also heavily right wing.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

The move to the center cliche is just a smokescreen. The whole point of this exercise is for Obama to demonstrate to the corporate ruling class that it is safe, that he will, like Hoyer and Pelosi, take direction. The ruling class has governed through the Republicans so ruthlessly that it has, many "real" republicans & former republicans (me included) admit, it destroyed their brand. They are now considering whether to govern through the democrats - but need Obama to demonstrate that he will knuckle under. The FISA vote is a good litmus test for them.

They don't really trust McCain - notice how they even tried to prop up feeble Fred Thompson in his place - and could never abide Clinton. Now that the ruling class has pushed Clinton off the stage and sees how erratic McCain is, they are probably looking to make a deal with Obama.

The heart and core of the Dems & Repubs. odious "move to the center" strategy is that they can take their base for granted. To get that extra 4-5% in the center they need to win, they can fully take the 35% or so who make up their hard core liberal or social conservitive evangical base for granted.

Some are disgusted at being used expediently and taken for granted - like an old sofa- each election cycle. Disrespected and dissed, pissed on in order to get those waffling centrists on board.

It could be said that the Obama candidacy has gone from "true" hope for change to Tweedledum to McCain's Tweedledee. This bait and switch leaves the poor voter with a Hobson's Choice of a Full Bodied Republican or Republican Lite.

An election should not be like a the old TV show "To Tell the Truth" and voters wait until after the election for the host to say, "Will the Real Barack Obama and the real John McCain, please stand up?" Maybe we should incorporate that line into the inauguration.

This is part and parcel of the false shrine the Washington political complex has built and kneels before. it's not leadership to reverse who you at least claim to have been. the Republican lies told about democratic candidates for several elections now have been effective because they touch on a fundamental truth: people know when they're being played, and resent it. and this works into the repub strategy of putting McCain out there "as someone you know" - even if we really don't. Once again, Obama & the Dems. are playing "their" game by "their" rules.

The whole point of the post is that when a candidate changes positions on many issues from one month to the next, it's impossible to know what they really believe or whether they really believe anything. That's what causes the perception that a candidate is weak.

In the meantime, what should one do? I'm afraid that we are nothing more that a "managed democracy". Will I even vote? I honestly do not know, most likely I will. Right now Obama is still my only choice.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Will the real Barak Obama please stand up. I don't get this guy...maybe the debates with help define just who he is and what his vision of change and hope is. Right now it all appears to be political rhetoric designed to moderate his image...I don't get any read on his true convictions. Who is this guy? Inquiring minds want to know.

It could be said, the problem for Obama is that he is using this issue and the FISA bill to not get "closer to the center" but closer to his own party's leadership. After a divsive primary race, he believes he needs all the Democratic party support he can muster, and as far as the FISA issue goes, the Democratic leadership (Pelosi, Hoyer, Reid) actually WANT this bill to pass as is.

Unfortunately, Obama is stuck between a rock and a hard place, where he needs to go against his liberal principles (which he may or may not believe in, but until not too long ago strongly espoused) just to become the kind of Democrat his party leaders want him to be.

Of course, this is all conjecture, but many have lost complete faith in the pathetic Democratic party elders, (Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer) and after having seen advisors and the Democratic party ruin Gore & Kerrys shot at the Presidency, I am all but convinced that unless Obama breaks away from the party line, he could also lose the election.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: AAjax
Democrat Barack Obama's presidential campaign is signalling more flexibility on his pledge to quickly pull U.S. troops out of Iraq if elected as part of a move toward the political centre.

Man, if Obama dosent win the election he can sure make some $$ patenting that bicycle with a reverse gear. So yet another turn around from his stated campaign vows, I quess it should be no surprise. This is gonna be one of the biggest loose/loose elections ever.

Well, for once, I'm not nervous of the possibility of Obama being president. Even if he has flip-flopped, I'm pleased to see he shows this position.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: CPA

Please, McCain is getting killed on the Repub side because he's to close to the center. Have you read his stances on illegal immigration, taxes, abortion and universal healthcare? All pretty center of the road. The only things he got the far right on is guns and Iraq.

Please explain how McCain's stance on taxes or abortion is 'middle of the road'. (he was rated a flat ZERO by NARAL.) He is a big supporter of Bush's tax cuts and wants to make more like them, this is also heavily right wing.

Obama is a big supporter of tax cuts...does this make him "also heavily right wing". As usual you're logic defies me.
Obama tax plan: $80 billion in cuts

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Why you ask? Because he's not a retard like most lefties.

Statistically improbable: the left aborts our retards, the right elects their's president.

I'm not sure if you made that quote up or not, but I have to commend you. That's a magnificent quote.

 

[Moonbeam]

Flexibility? Oh no, anything but flexibility, please.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Will the real Barak Obama please stand up. I don't get this guy...maybe the debates with help define just who he is and what his vision of change and hope is. Right now it all appears to be political rhetoric designed to moderate his image...I don't get any read on his true convictions. Who is this guy? Inquiring minds want to know.

It could be said, the problem for Obama is that he is using this issue and the FISA bill to not get "closer to the center" but closer to his own party's leadership. After a divsive primary race, he believes he needs all the Democratic party support he can muster, and as far as the FISA issue goes, the Democratic leadership (Pelosi, Hoyer, Reid) actually WANT this bill to pass as is.

Unfortunately, Obama is stuck between a rock and a hard place, where he needs to go against his liberal principles (which he may or may not believe in, but until not too long ago strongly espoused) just to become the kind of Democrat his party leaders want him to be.

Of course, this is all conjecture, but many have lost complete faith in the pathetic Democratic party elders, (Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer) and after having seen advisors and the Democratic party ruin Gore & Kerrys shot at the Presidency, I am all but convinced that unless Obama breaks away from the party line, he could also lose the election.

I always perceived Obama as a grass roots candidate that wasn't a product of the "machine" and that's one of the reasons I like him. Now I don't know who this guy is anymore. I don't like being deceived...I want to know what he really stands for when the chips are down. I still like Obama...but I have a jaundiced eye on him with hope he shows his true colors soon.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Please explain how McCain's stance on taxes or abortion is 'middle of the road'. (he was rated a flat ZERO by NARAL.) He is a big supporter of Bush's tax cuts and wants to make more like them, this is also heavily right wing.

Obama is a big supporter of tax cuts...does this make him "also heavily right wing". As usual you're logic defies me.
Obama tax plan: $80 billion in cuts

That would probably be because as usual you haven't bothered to learn about the issue. That's likely why my logic "defies" you.

Obama's tax cuts are targeted at people in the middle/lower parts of the income scale. This is a form of tax cut that is progressive in nature and is generally considered leftist. McCain's tax cuts are targeted at the people on the higher end of the economic spectrum. This is generally considered a right wing move.

What, did you think that to be on the left you had to raise taxes?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Flexibility? Oh no, anything but flexibility, please.

Ya no kidding. Everyone is so afraid that what they want will not happen that the average consensus of those who do not support Obama is that the idea of a candidate taking a flexible approach is nothing more than an excuse to be used later to dodge the "liar" bullet if someone claims that a promise has been broken. They seem to forget that while they do not want their candidates position on certain matters to change that doesn't mean that the world around us is not going to change between now and when it is time to take action. To not be flexible as the President is downright foolish even if the candidate's original position on a matter favors what you believe is right. Not to mention that even rock solid promises can easily be broken as long as they are not on paper.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Flexibility? Oh no, anything but flexibility, please.

No, no flexibility. I want our troops out of Iraq, soon. He promised to do so. And he promised no permanent bases, too, and I imagine that promise will get tossed out the window as well.

The only change we are getting is Obama changing his stance on the issues.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: AAjax
Democrat Barack Obama's presidential campaign is signalling more flexibility on his pledge to quickly pull U.S. troops out of Iraq if elected as part of a move toward the political centre.

Man, if Obama dosent win the election he can sure make some $$ patenting that bicycle with a reverse gear. So yet another turn around from his stated campaign vows, I quess it should be no surprise. This is gonna be one of the biggest loose/loose elections ever.

Did you people (i.e. morons who think this is a "flip flop") even read the article or are you people really that dense?

Aides say Obama is still committed to the 16-month goal but they appear to be leaving him wiggle room now that the U.S. troop surge is credited with bringing some stability there.

How is that a "turn around"? Illiteracy is running rampant in this forum. :thumbsdown:

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Please explain how McCain's stance on taxes or abortion is 'middle of the road'. (he was rated a flat ZERO by NARAL.) He is a big supporter of Bush's tax cuts and wants to make more like them, this is also heavily right wing.

Obama is a big supporter of tax cuts...does this make him "also heavily right wing". As usual you're logic defies me.
Obama tax plan: $80 billion in cuts

That would probably be because as usual you haven't bothered to learn about the issue. That's likely why my logic "defies" you.

Obama's tax cuts are targeted at people in the middle/lower parts of the income scale. This is a form of tax cut that is progressive in nature and is generally considered leftist. McCain's tax cuts are targeted at the people on the higher end of the economic spectrum. This is generally considered a right wing move.

What, did you think that to be on the left you had to raise taxes?

Lol?my tin foil hat must be on the fritz.

Edit for clarification: Looking back...it appears that you mean "tax cuts for the wealthy" when you use the term "Bush's tax cuts". If that's the case, please don't expect me to read your mind. As you surely know, Obama supports many aspects of Bush's tax cuts.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm surprised that you bare bothered that the next president of the United States has the ability to view circumstances, whether it be the war or the election and adapt. That was Bushes short falling and his inability to adapt or think on his feet (or even think at all)which has led this country into the mess it is now in.

You are deranged. Bush has done exactly that with the surge, yet you continue to brush its success off as too little too late.

You forgot the quotes around 'success'. Go read GTaudiophile's thread if you want to see what I mean.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Flexibility? Oh no, anything but flexibility, please.

No, no flexibility. I want our troops out of Iraq, soon. He promised to do so. And he promised no permanent bases, too, and I imagine that promise will get tossed out the window as well.

The only change we are getting is Obama changing his stance on the issues.

See what I mean?

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

I'm surprised that you bare bothered that the next president of the United States has the ability to view circumstances, whether it be the war or the election and adapt.

At his rate of adapting he's going to need to publish a new website cause all the old material will have been revised in the opposite direction.

That was Bushes short falling and his inability to adapt or think on his feet (or even think at all)which has led this country into the mess it is now in.

Nope, his fault was assigning an underling a task and refusing to revisit those appointments regardless of how fucked up a result those morons were achieving.

I will agree on the criticisms of those who think Obama is the next Messiah. He's not, he's just the best option we have now for our next president. Do I wish we had a better option, you bet but we didn't have any during the primaries or now.

That may be you, but the JP and crew types are running roughshod preparing for his coronation regardless of what occurs between now and then.