blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
The day we put the choice of whether or not we go to war based on the popular opinion is a scary day indeed.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Again, so the answer is to pass and sign an even bigger boondoggle? Seems like a good way to "fix" our "fiscal crisis"... :roll:
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
Well I don't know if this can help decide on whats going to occur . I don't place much in it. But this guy is good. It clearly is talking about our time right now thats for fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya0KopdROTk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya0KopdROTk&NR=1
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Perhaps I need to explain my lack of understanding, seeing as there seems to be a cultural barrier here as I am a foreigner.
What I fail to understand is how the result in that election could be even remotely close given what GWB did during his first term in office.
People with legitimate moral values don't believe in war and killing people.
Another worthless post by CADsortaGAY. Unless you have another way to jump start our economy, you are just trolling.
government spending is necessary in hard times, when people get so poor they stop spending and businesses are failing. this has been proven by top economists and tried and done in history in many nations. It may or may not work, but its about the only known way to keep the economy alive.
what Bush has done wrong was excessive spending on a war with $0 return, reduced infrastructure spending, and not tighting government spending during economic uprise.
True, but there are some issues that are absolutes for some voters. Being on the wrong side of these issues mean that they must vote for the other party. Imagine the "perfect" local Canadian political challenger with a single flaw, that she felt that provincial government ought to have English as an official language (as it is with the federal government). No doubt there are some Québécois that would never vote for her, regardless of what the incumbent had done in the past.
Such it is for some Americans, but with even stronger convictions.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
I don't give a rats ass what you think of Bush's spending - the OP and editorial used the premise of "fiscal disaster". So using that as a base - I sarcastically replied that it's obviously fiscally responsible to continue and expand the wasteful spending - right? I mean if it's a disaster, we should just pull out the checkbook and spend more in one bill than any other bill in world history. Clearly that's fiscal responsibility. Clearly it'll fix this "fiscal crisis"...
F'n morons...
from wiki
Keynesian Effect
Following John Maynard Keynes, many economists recommend deficit spending in order to moderate or end a recession, especially a severe one. When the economy has high unemployment, an increase in government purchases creates a market for business output, creating income and encouraging increases in consumer spending, which creates further increases in the demand for business output. (This is the multiplier effect). This raises the real gross domestic product (GDP) and the employment of labor, and if all else is constant, lowers the unemployment rate. (The connection between demand for GDP and unemployment is called Okun's Law.) Cutting personal taxes and/or raising transfer payments can have similar expansionary effects, though most economists would say that such policies have weaker effects. Which method has a better stimulative economic effect is a matter of debate.
edit: linkdeficit spending
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
That's if you buy into the Keynesian bullshit....and also if you consider the biggest spending package in world history merely "deficit spending"...
No one with two licks of sense can say this is merely deficit spending - this is MASSIVE deficit spending.
Also, note that according to that the spending should create markets for business output(this spending does little/none of that) and that it should encourage consumer spending(this spending does little/none of that)
So again, how exactly do you libs reconcile this "fiscal disaster" whining with this MASSIVE spending bill that guarantees even more and worse "fiscal disaster"?
You need to learn how to read...
within same article deficit spending
If the government borrows (runs a deficit) to deal with a severe recession (or depression), to help self-defense, or spends on public investment (in infrastructure, education, basic research, or public health), the vast majority of economists would agree that the deficit is bearable, beneficial, and even necessary.
fyi the bill is mostly on public investment mentioned above.
fyi, Keynesian is perhaps the most influential economist in history...with countless followers... you can disagree with his theory but you really gotta have a brain made of bullshit to call his theory bullshit...
Massive deficit spending is still deficit spending. That's what many economists say is necessary to avert a depression. Some argue that it's not large enough.
Reading comprehension pop-quiz. Q: You note that "market for business output" phrase, but what preceded that? A: Government purchases create that market for business output. Simply by spending the money to make purchases and investments in infrastructure, that market is created.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Uh no, the bill is not "mostly on public investment mentioned above" - have you not been paying attention?
Yes, I know that type of economic has many followers but it's flawed as has been shown time and time again. Sure, nothing is "perfect" but it is bullshit because it just doesn't work like the theory claims it should. We could get into a discussion about how it's flawed but that's likely a discussion for a different thread.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
And what happens if/when the demand is false? That's right, it collapses or needs sustained infusions from the gov't. Hmm... sounds like... hmm...something...
I guess you have a point, however people voted for other reasons besides war and stimulus. I mean, it's a bit more complex than that.
That it's $787B in pork, whereas there's actually $317.2 Billion in spending. The rest is tax cuts and money for state and local governments. Though I suppose that last item might be viewed as spending. Still $288 B in tax relief... And then even much of the spending might not fall into the "pork" category.
What demand are you talking about? When the government purchases through this spending bill, it is creating the initial demand. They are the ones purchasing from the market, creating business output. That stimulus (and "demand") is guaranteed and cannot be "false".
If the income created by that stimulus actually increases consumer spending, then as a result of that increase in spending the demand for business output might increase. If consumer spending doesn't increase, then we've probably effectively entered into a depressionary spiral. Again, no "false" demand -- it's either there on it's not.
I really don't see the point in cutting personal income taxes in times like this. The people with jobs should consider themselves lucky, and should be happy to help out their brethren who are out of work by paying their due. Corporate taxes are another matter.
Most people getting a tax break in today's economy will simply pocket the money out of fear.
It's been proven that the best stimulus for the economy is spending on infrastructure. It's fair as well.
Most people getting a tax break in today's economy will simply pocket the money out of fear.
It's been proven that the best stimulus for the economy is spending on infrastructure. It's fair as well.
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
- 126
I consider myself lucky to be able to contribute to the charities I support which actually do help those who need help in a productive way. Instead you want to it be pissed away by politicians and bureaucrats with make-work projects and "aid" for people who will spend it on beer, lottery tickets, and strip clubs (based on the precedent of the debit cards given out post-Katrina).
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