Obama inherited a fiscal disaster. Now what?

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Fiscal disaster? Yeah, I have an idea on how to fix that... lets F'n sign a 787BILLION dollar pork bill... That'll help our fiscal "disaster" situation.

BTW, the SS "trust fund" doesn't exist and the money is always "borrowed" from it and put in the general fund. The SS "trust fund" doesn't actually ever hold money anymore.

Um, if you look into why the Great Depression happened, a main reason was because the government at the time decided to do nothing and just ride it out. It took a new president, FDR, to try a stimulus package, but by that point it was like trying to revive a nearly dead horse. It eventually required WW2 to fully recover the economy.

Thank GOD you are not in political power, CAD! If you were, it would take WW3 to get us out of this mess!

Did you forget the fact that the money supply shrank at the start of the great depression. About the worst possible thing you can do when an economy is slowing down.

And check out what FDR's Treasury secretary (and close friend) Henry Morgenthau Jr. said:

"We have tried spending money; we are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work,"
And the amount of money spent by FDR was staggering compared to what we are doing now.

In 1930 the Federal spending was 3.4% of GDP by 1933 it was 8% and would never drop below 7.7%. So we essentially doubled the size of the government in 4 years.
It doubled in actually dollar amounts as well going from $3.3 billion to 6.5 billion in 5 years.

And despite all this spending our GDP in 1940 was LOWER than it was in 1930.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I knew things were in the shitter economically, but I don't think the average American understands exactly HOW bad things really are. For example, did you know that your per capita share of America's total obligations, including entitlements, is more than $184,000 each? Holy debt-loads Batman, that's about 1/2 million bucks for the average American family. How does that feel?

Did you know that Team Bush borrowed $1 Trillion form the Social Security "trust" fund?

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Fiscal disaster? Yeah, I have an idea on how to fix that... lets F'n sign a 787BILLION dollar pork bill... That'll help our fiscal "disaster" situation.

BTW, the SS "trust fund" doesn't exist and the money is always "borrowed" from it and put in the general fund. The SS "trust fund" doesn't actually ever hold money anymore.

Um, if you look into why the Great Depression happened, a main reason was because the government at the time decided to do nothing and just ride it out. It took a new president, FDR, to try a stimulus package, but by that point it was like trying to revive a nearly dead horse. It eventually required WW2 to fully recover the economy.

Thank GOD you are not in political power, CAD! If you were, it would take WW3 to get us out of this mess!

Did you forget the fact that the money supply shrank at the start of the great depression. About the worst possible thing you can do when an economy is slowing down.

And check out what FDR's Treasury secretary (and close friend) Henry Morgenthau Jr. said:

"We have tried spending money; we are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work,"
And the amount of money spent by FDR was staggering compared to what we are doing now.

In 1930 the Federal spending was 3.4% of GDP by 1933 it was 8% and would never drop below 7.7%. So we essentially doubled the size of the government in 4 years.
It doubled in actually dollar amounts as well going from $3.3 billion to 6.5 billion in 5 years.

And despite all this spending our GDP in 1940 was LOWER than it was in 1930.

Look, economists agree that the government needed to act immediately during the depression, but instead they sat on their hands just like CAD (and now you) are suggesting. By waiting too long, it made it nearly impossible for the government to bail out the private sector. The same thing could happen today, and really, GWB did a great deal of harm by waiting for so long to provide a stimulus package that wound up going straight into the bank CEO's pockets instead of actually reviving the credit market.

I agree with the people who say that there are no moderates left in the Republican party. Only 3 of them supported Obama's plan; it's madness in light of the economic situation and it shows that they are a bunch of uneducated idiots trying to run the most important economy in the world.

You're neglecting the fact that FDR's predecessor created the great depression. It was the policy of doing nothing that helped create the mess.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I knew things were in the shitter economically, but I don't think the average American understands exactly HOW bad things really are. For example, did you know that your per capita share of America's total obligations, including entitlements, is more than $184,000 each? Holy debt-loads Batman, that's about 1/2 million bucks for the average American family. How does that feel?

Did you know that Team Bush borrowed $1 Trillion form the Social Security "trust" fund?

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

At least America will have something to show for it, unlike the smoke, blood, corpses, and dust left behind by GWB's wasteful spending on Iraq.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I knew things were in the shitter economically, but I don't think the average American understands exactly HOW bad things really are. For example, did you know that your per capita share of America's total obligations, including entitlements, is more than $184,000 each? Holy debt-loads Batman, that's about 1/2 million bucks for the average American family. How does that feel?

Did you know that Team Bush borrowed $1 Trillion form the Social Security "trust" fund?

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

At least America will have something to show for it, unlike the smoke, blood, corpses, and dust left behind by GWB's wasteful spending on Iraq.

You do realize that if we added up ALL the Iraq War spending so far it would total less than the cost of this ONE bill.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I knew things were in the shitter economically, but I don't think the average American understands exactly HOW bad things really are. For example, did you know that your per capita share of America's total obligations, including entitlements, is more than $184,000 each? Holy debt-loads Batman, that's about 1/2 million bucks for the average American family. How does that feel?

Did you know that Team Bush borrowed $1 Trillion form the Social Security "trust" fund?

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

At least America will have something to show for it, unlike the smoke, blood, corpses, and dust left behind by GWB's wasteful spending on Iraq.

You do realize that if we added up ALL the Iraq War spending so far it would total less than the cost of this ONE bill.

Not by much. To date, close to $600 billion has been spent on Iraq. Like I said, that money is literally up in smoke. Obama's money will build roads, bridges, and other infrastructure that is tangible. Not only that, but by the time Obama's plan is implemented, the Iraq war will surely exceed the stimulus bill in terms of total cost.

Now, I suppose it could be argued that war itself is the best economic stimulus possible, but IMO that is not ethical.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Q: How can you tell a Wing Nut is lying?

A: Their fingers are typing.

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

Keep telling that lie, Johnnie.

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So riddle me this, my Republican friends: What would a GOP Administration (assuming backing from Congress) do in the midst of this financial melt-down? Cut taxes? Frankly, that won't have any sort of immediate effect on the economy. Send out more stimulus checks to the taxpayers? How much does that cost? $150 Billion? More? The '08 stimulus checks only seemed to register the briefest of upward blips on the economy. Not exactly effective.

Reagan, 1981-82.

As a percentage of GDP at five years Raygun tax increases in 1982 are the highest ever. Would you like to go for 1983, Weener?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Fiscal disaster? Yeah, I have an idea on how to fix that... lets F'n sign a 787BILLION dollar pork bill... That'll help our fiscal "disaster" situation.

BTW, the SS "trust fund" doesn't exist and the money is always "borrowed" from it and put in the general fund. The SS "trust fund" doesn't actually ever hold money anymore.

Um, if you look into why the Great Depression happened, a main reason was because the government at the time decided to do nothing and just ride it out. It took a new president, FDR, to try a stimulus package, but by that point it was like trying to revive a nearly dead horse. It eventually required WW2 to fully recover the economy.

Thank GOD you are not in political power, CAD! If you were, it would take WW3 to get us out of this mess!

Hoover spent a lot of money on public works projects. Hoover was one of the first interventionalists. FDR actually criticized hoovers spending in his run for office. So the govt did a lot under Hoover and nothing came of it. The govt spent even more under FDR and little came of it. So lets follow that pattern because this time it has to work right?

One of the main reasons for the great depression was a combination of the tariff act that destroyed international trade and a lack of liquidity in the banking industry. Once we were on the road to destruction other things helped to keep it going like forcing wage increases in a time of deflationary pressure. The result was business couldnt afford to keep people working becuase the price of their products were dropping while the price of their labor was increasing. Shit like that just fucked us in the 30's.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I knew things were in the shitter economically, but I don't think the average American understands exactly HOW bad things really are. For example, did you know that your per capita share of America's total obligations, including entitlements, is more than $184,000 each? Holy debt-loads Batman, that's about 1/2 million bucks for the average American family. How does that feel?

Did you know that Team Bush borrowed $1 Trillion form the Social Security "trust" fund?

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

At least America will have something to show for it, unlike the smoke, blood, corpses, and dust left behind by GWB's wasteful spending on Iraq.

You do realize that if we added up ALL the Iraq War spending so far it would total less than the cost of this ONE bill.

Not by much. To date, close to $600 billion has been spent on Iraq. Like I said, that money is literally up in smoke. Obama's money will build roads, bridges, and other infrastructure that is tangible. Not only that, but by the time Obama's plan is implemented, the Iraq war will surely exceed the stimulus bill in terms of total cost.

Now, I suppose it could be argued that war itself is the best economic stimulus possible, but IMO that is not ethical.

If you gave the average American a vote between:

(A) Spending $600+ Billion blowing up some shithole third-world country and then rebuilding it.

(B) Or, spending $780+ Billion lowering our taxes and rebuilding our infrastructure, creating jobs and jump-starting our languishing economy.

I wonder which they'd pick? Seriously, would ANYONE pick "A"? Anyone?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I knew things were in the shitter economically, but I don't think the average American understands exactly HOW bad things really are. For example, did you know that your per capita share of America's total obligations, including entitlements, is more than $184,000 each? Holy debt-loads Batman, that's about 1/2 million bucks for the average American family. How does that feel?

Did you know that Team Bush borrowed $1 Trillion form the Social Security "trust" fund?

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

At least America will have something to show for it, unlike the smoke, blood, corpses, and dust left behind by GWB's wasteful spending on Iraq.

You do realize that if we added up ALL the Iraq War spending so far it would total less than the cost of this ONE bill.

Not by much. To date, close to $600 billion has been spent on Iraq. Like I said, that money is literally up in smoke. Obama's money will build roads, bridges, and other infrastructure that is tangible. Not only that, but by the time Obama's plan is implemented, the Iraq war will surely exceed the stimulus bill in terms of total cost.

Now, I suppose it could be argued that war itself is the best economic stimulus possible, but IMO that is not ethical.

If you gave the average American a vote between:

(A) Spending $600+ Billion blowing up some shithole third-world country and then rebuilding it.

(B) Or, spending $780+ Billion lowering our taxes and rebuilding our infrastructure, creating jobs and jump-starting our languishing economy.

I wonder which they'd pick? Seriously, would ANYONE pick "A"? Anyone?

What the hell...let's do BOTH! :roll:

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I knew things were in the shitter economically, but I don't think the average American understands exactly HOW bad things really are. For example, did you know that your per capita share of America's total obligations, including entitlements, is more than $184,000 each? Holy debt-loads Batman, that's about 1/2 million bucks for the average American family. How does that feel?

Did you know that Team Bush borrowed $1 Trillion form the Social Security "trust" fund?

Do you realize that Obama is going to have a bigger deficit in his first year in office than Bush had for his first FOUR years.

This bill alone is almost as big as Bush's first 4 deficits added together.

At least America will have something to show for it, unlike the smoke, blood, corpses, and dust left behind by GWB's wasteful spending on Iraq.

You do realize that if we added up ALL the Iraq War spending so far it would total less than the cost of this ONE bill.

Not by much. To date, close to $600 billion has been spent on Iraq. Like I said, that money is literally up in smoke. Obama's money will build roads, bridges, and other infrastructure that is tangible. Not only that, but by the time Obama's plan is implemented, the Iraq war will surely exceed the stimulus bill in terms of total cost.

Now, I suppose it could be argued that war itself is the best economic stimulus possible, but IMO that is not ethical.

If you gave the average American a vote between:

(A) Spending $600+ Billion blowing up some shithole third-world country and then rebuilding it.

(B) Or, spending $780+ Billion lowering our taxes and rebuilding our infrastructure, creating jobs and jump-starting our languishing economy.

I wonder which they'd pick? Seriously, would ANYONE pick "A"? Anyone?

Didnt the American people vote to do both?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Didnt the American people vote to do both?

Not directly, no. It would have been interesting to put the Iraq war to a popular vote though before going in. I wonder what the results would have been?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87
Didnt the American people vote to do both?

Not directly, no. It would have been interesting to put the Iraq war to a popular vote though before going in. I wonder what the results would have been?

Really? So they didnt vote Bush and republicans in to conduct the war in 02-04? Then vote democrats in to pass a simulus package in 08?

 

[ElFenix]

Bush's team borrowed more than $1 trillion from the Social Security "trust fund"

um, is the author unaware that the only thing in the social security trust fund is .gov IOUs?

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Um, if you look into why the Great Depression happened, a main reason was because the government at the time decided to do nothing and just ride it out. It took a new president, FDR, to try a stimulus package, but by that point it was like trying to revive a nearly dead horse. It eventually required WW2 to fully recover the economy.

Thank GOD you are not in political power, CAD! If you were, it would take WW3 to get us out of this mess!

what's ironic in this situation is that john nance garner, roosevelt's running mate, accused hoover of leading the country down the path of socialism.

i have to wonder what the modern political landscape would look like had hoover won in 1932

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

If you gave the average American a vote between:

(A) Spending $600+ Billion blowing up some shithole third-world country and then rebuilding it.

(B) Or, spending $780+ Billion lowering our taxes and rebuilding our infrastructure, creating jobs and jump-starting our languishing economy.

I wonder which they'd pick? Seriously, would ANYONE pick "A"? Anyone?

a) i like how 'lowering taxes' is considered spending.
b) so putting together implements of war isn't creating jobs? i'm pretty sure most of that money wasn't spent in iraq or given to iraqis. i guess i'd rather have someone building a tank than digging a hole only to fill it in again.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Bush's team borrowed more than $1 trillion from the Social Security "trust fund"

um, is the author unaware that the only thing in the social security trust fund is .gov IOUs?

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Um, if you look into why the Great Depression happened, a main reason was because the government at the time decided to do nothing and just ride it out. It took a new president, FDR, to try a stimulus package, but by that point it was like trying to revive a nearly dead horse. It eventually required WW2 to fully recover the economy.

Thank GOD you are not in political power, CAD! If you were, it would take WW3 to get us out of this mess!

what's ironic in this situation is that john nance garner, roosevelt's running mate, accused hoover of leading the country down the path of socialism.

i have to wonder what the modern political landscape would look like had hoover won in 1932

Had Hoover won, it would have been the modern equivalent of GWB winning a 3rd term after winning a Hugo Chavez like referendum. It would have killed the morale of the country. Hoover was hated and largely blamed for the great depression by the American people.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87
Didnt the American people vote to do both?

Not directly, no. It would have been interesting to put the Iraq war to a popular vote though before going in. I wonder what the results would have been?

Really? So they didnt vote Bush and republicans in to conduct the war in 02-04? Then vote democrats in to pass a simulus package in 08?

Uh no. Why? Did you think they did?

 

[Carmen813]

I love how all the conservatives rediscovered conservatism as soon as they *EDIT* lost control of Congress.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Had Hoover won, it would have been the modern equivalent of GTB winning a 3rd term after winning a Hugo Chavez like referendum. It would have killed the morale of the country. Hoover was hated and largely blamed for the great depression by the American people.

right, however, i said the modern political landscape. would the republican party be reformist financiers? would the democrats have remained largely agrarian and racist?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Didnt the American people vote to do both?

Not at the same time. You can't blame Obama for the $600 billion spent on Iraq to date.

Bush won the first time on a technicality, and didn't even win the overall popular vote. I chalk it up to bad luck, ignorance, and, lies on behalf of some corrupt people in government.

The second Bush victory baffles me to this day. I have had it explained to me by several Americans, yet it still makes no sense to me. I sometimes even believe Dmcowen's conspiracy theory regarding Diebold, and I am not prone to such paranoia. :Q

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87
Didnt the American people vote to do both?

Not directly, no. It would have been interesting to put the Iraq war to a popular vote though before going in. I wonder what the results would have been?

Really? So they didnt vote Bush and republicans in to conduct the war in 02-04? Then vote democrats in to pass a simulus package in 08?

Uh no. Why? Did you think they did?

Lets see Republicans ran on Terorism\Iraq in 02, Bush ran on the Iraq war in 04 and Obama + Democrats ran on the economy in 08. The American people got what they voted for. 600 billion in Iraq and 800 billion stimulus package.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Bush's team borrowed more than $1 trillion from the Social Security "trust fund"

um, is the author unaware that the only thing in the social security trust fund is .gov IOUs?

From 2000-2008 Social Security ran a surplus somewhere in the range of $1.431 trillion.

Over the next 5 years it should run a surplus of $1.739 trillion.

I vote the money be loaned to state and local gov'ts at low interest for infrastructure projects instead of spending it on __________ .

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
a) i like how 'lowering taxes' is considered spending.
b) so putting together implements of war isn't creating jobs? i'm pretty sure most of that money wasn't spent in iraq or given to iraqis. i guess i'd rather have someone building a tank than digging a hole only to fill it in again.

Good point. From here on out, let's refer to Obama's stimulus bill as the $317.2 Billion spending bill, since the remainder are tax cuts.

If you add up Bush's two rounds of stimulus checks, you'd end up with about the same figure.

So WTF is everyone's problem again?

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Fiscal disaster? Yeah, I have an idea on how to fix that... lets F'n sign a 787BILLION dollar pork bill... That'll help our fiscal "disaster" situation.

Uhhhh, care to rephrase that Cad?

:roll:

 

[L00PY]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
The second Bush victory baffles me to this day. I have had it explained to me by several Americans, yet it still makes no sense to me. I sometimes even believe Dmcowen's conspiracy theory regarding Diebold, and I am not prone to such paranoia. :Q

There were a lot of ballot issues that drew out conservative voters during that election. You had state measures to ban same sex marriage in AR, GA, KY, MI, MS, MT, ND, OH, OK, OR, and UT. That probably swung OH. It's slightly possible it swung AR too. Flip those two states and Kerry wins.

If I'm not mistaken, according to nationwide exit polls 22% of all voters said "Moral Values" was their most important issue, and of those voters 80% of them voted for Bush. Bush supporters whose most important issues were Moral Values and Terrorism out voted Kerry supporters whose most important issues were Economy/Jobs, Iraq, Health Care, and Education.

 

[mooseracing]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

So WTF is everyone's problem again?

The waste of money that is going to get us nowhere. We need to maintain the jobs we have and work on new ones. Not just create new ones because they aren't going to last.

Lets put up some import taxes so you buy american products because they cost the same, and because it isn't cheaper for factories to move out of the country.

Also quit bailing out companies and people. That is not the governments job.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Hoover spent a lot of money on public works projects. Hoover was one of the first interventionalists. FDR actually criticized hoovers spending in his run for office. So the govt did a lot under Hoover and nothing came of it. The govt spent even more under FDR and little came of it. So lets follow that pattern because this time it has to work right?

One of the main reasons for the great depression was a combination of the tariff act that destroyed international trade and a lack of liquidity in the banking industry. Once we were on the road to destruction other things helped to keep it going like forcing wage increases in a time of deflationary pressure. The result was business couldnt afford to keep people working becuase the price of their products were dropping while the price of their labor was increasing. Shit like that just fucked us in the 30's.

Seems like a lot more than you think came of FDR's spending.