NV: Everything under control. 512-Fermi may appear someday. Yields aren't under 20%

[RadiclDreamer]

The GPU market, particularly NVidia, needs to get with the times. Power consumption is now a serious consideration. At this point, I would never consider a NVidia card. That's a shame, because I've always been happy with their products when I've gotten them.

For some, I personally dont care how much power it takes

 

[BenSkywalker]

BFG, why do you say you could have only purchased a 470 or 480? What about 5850, 5870 or 5970?

BFG is a huge fan of IQ, and at the high end of IQ ATi isn't really competitive(if you don't know why, you really aren't going to care btw ).

 

[ugaboga232]

BFG is a huge fan of IQ, and at the high end of IQ ATi isn't really competitive(if you don't know why, you really aren't going to care btw ).

Do tell this IQ difference.

 

[Attic]

BFG is a huge fan of IQ, and at the high end of IQ ATi isn't really competitive(if you don't know why, you really aren't going to care btw ).

Do you blush when you type up posts like this?

 

[Attic]

Umm, I hope you enjoyed that conversation you just had with yourself.

Your logic on the topic was out of bounds, I was trying to be explicit in showing you this.

Given you recieve otherwise expensive graphics cards for free from nVidia, I realize that you are just a plug for nVidia to stick where they please, but the smell of your "loyality" has me wondering where you've been recenlty.

Cool it with the personal attacks. Keep the discussion on topic. -Admin DrPizza

 

[Gikaseixas]

BFG is a huge fan of IQ, and at the high end of IQ ATi isn't really competitive(if you don't know why, you really aren't going to care btw ).

...and you're a huge fan(boy) of Nv

 

[Skurge]

The more shaders games use, the more shader aliasing they bring to the table. In many ways Far Cry 1 looks much better than Crysis because its images are much cleaner and more pleasant to the eye.

I wouldn't say it looks better, but I agree on the cleaner and more pleasant part.

 

[evolucion8]

...and you're a huge fan(boy) of Nv

1+

 

[Skurge]

BFG is a huge fan of IQ, and at the high end of IQ ATi isn't really competitive(if you don't know why, you really aren't going to care btw ).

I would also like to know about this IQ difference.

EDIT: Oh, does the GTX400 series have angle-independent AF like the HD5000 series?

 

[BenSkywalker]

SSAA

Fully sampled AF

Do you blush when you type up posts like this?

Outside of BFG, there really is noone else on these forums(or this site for that matter) that can properly analyze IQ that I have seen. Like I said, if you don't know what I'm talking about, you probably don't care.

 

[MrK6]

SSAA

Fully sampled AF



Outside of BFG, there really is noone else on these forums(or this site for that matter) that can properly analyze IQ that I have seen. Like I said, if you don't know what I'm talking about, you probably don't care.

Just like anyone who couldn't see the Emperor's new clothes were unfit or incompetent, right? Either prove it or go be smug somewhere else, there's too much fanboy bullshit on this forum as it is.

 

[SlowSpyder]

...and you're a huge fan(boy) of Nv

While I do believe Ben is a huge Nvidia fanboy, that doesn't make what he's saying false. It's kind of like how Charlie did certainly nail some things with Fermi before it launched, we all know he's anti-Nvidia.

I think it's been known that Nvidia has had some better AA modes for a while. AMD looks to have made huge strides with the 5xxx cards in image quality, I'm glad they recongize areas that they can improve on and are working to bring those improvements.

Not everyone appreciates extra features, they just want to know how a card performs in Crysis and think cards should be priced just on that, frames per second (not in just Crysis obviously, but as an example seeing as that still seems to be 'the' measuring stick). But things like CUDA, improved AF, Eyefinity, etc. really add value in my opinion.

If Nvidia's highest end image options out do AMD's, than for certain people that is of value.

BFG, how do you feel AMD's 5xxx cards compare to the GTX4x0 cards in terms of image quality? Obviously you bought a GTX470 for your personal rig, so that says something right there. But, care to tell us where you felt Nvidia really offered better IQ compared to AMD? I assume you've played around with a 5 series seeing as you write reviews and other articles for a tech site, even though your rig has a GTX470. I guess I am just less discerning, the games I play look fantastic in my opinion on this 5870 with 4xAA and 16xAF.

 

[Lonyo]

Speaking of Charlie, he's been incredibly quiet recently, especially considering there are one or two new NV products due to launch very soon.
Interesting that he hasn't posted any (bad) news about said upcoming products.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Just like anyone who couldn't see the Emperor's new clothes were unfit or incompetent, right?

Explain the differences between SSAA and MSAA+AF and how that impacts current titles(that is an extremely trivial question).

Personally- I don't like SSAA- and I have *never* made a secret of that. Be that as it may, I do understand why BFG likes it and there really is nothing that can emulate it. The undersampled AF is a much bigger deal to me, and if you think this is me saying this just because of the current matchup- I have an 11 year post history about how obsessive I am on that particular feature(BFG is the same with AA).

Either prove it or go be smug somewhere else, there's too much fanboy bullshit on this forum as it is.

If you want to start a thread on signal theory have at it, I'd certainly participate. If you have to look signal theory up, perhaps you should start off reading Foley & Van Damm and get the basics down. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to care about the differences, there are those of us that do. For those that don't care, enjoying your own ignorance is a much cheaper way to continue with your hobby then getting borderline OCD about IQ.

 

[GaiaHunter]

If you want to start a thread on signal theory have at it, I'd certainly participate. If you have to look signal theory up, perhaps you should start off reading Foley & Van Damm and get the basics down. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to care about the differences, there are those of us that do. For those that don't care, enjoying your own ignorance is a much cheaper way to continue with your hobby then getting borderline OCD about IQ.

Hehe.

This is a fun paragraph - basically it says "people need to learn the theories behind how the hardware work to see a visual difference".

"Hey does cake taste better than this one?

"Lemme go do a chemical analysis of its composition so I can answer."

Just playing around.

 

[Gikaseixas]

While I do believe Ben is a huge Nvidia fanboy, that doesn't make what he's saying false. It's kind of like how Charlie did certainly nail some things with Fermi before it launched, we all know he's anti-Nvidia.

Not saying that what he says is false information (for the most part), fact is that he tries to paint the picture in Nvidia's favor 100% of the time. He's one of those posters that's not capable of admiting defeat of their virtual love.

How can you have a proper discussion if 100% of the time you have to compare one brand to another these guys jump in and defend their side like their lifes depend on it? This applies to both sides, to both ATI and Nv fans.

At one point one has to stop and analyse "ok my sponsor / employer / favorite card maker, etc really fucked up this time" gotta stop try to make things look better than they're in reality cuz i'm not getting paid for this (does not apply to focus dudes or employees)

Right now ATi's in front, last round it was Nvidia, i buy what's best for me at the time of purchase, i don't buy because it's green or red.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Not saying that what he says is false information (for the most part), fact is that he tries to paint the picture in Nvidia's favor 100% of the time.

I do the same with ATi, it's just this forum is full of a bunch of nV bashers and noone really picks on ATi much. Fermi is hot, it's big, and it's loud. ATi is relatively cool, small and quiet. nV has superior AF quality, at the cost of a larger performance penalty. Given that most of the people here don't care about the small IQ edge- how am I *defending* nV? What do you want more- some IQ tweaks you don't care about or more performance? This is the problem too many people on this forum have. They don't realize that the guys who design these parts are all *really fucking smart*. Every design choice has pros and cons. On this forum, if you present a different perspective on any of nV's choices then you are somehow equated out to being a nV fanboy. I bash on one thin on these forums, the laughable idiocy on S|A and the mentality required to believe it.

Right now ATi's in front, last round it was Nvidia, i buy what's best for me at the time of purchase

What is different this round then last? nV is a little bit faster for single GPUs(4870x2 was the top card for quite some time prior to 295 too), comes with a cost premium, is larger and hotter. How is this different? Very little has changed. Perhaps your perspective did based on what you decided to buy, but that doesn't change how things actually are.

 

[GaiaHunter]

What is different this round then last? nV is a little bit faster for single GPUs(4870x2 was the top card for quite some time prior to 295 too), comes with a cost premium, is larger and hotter. How is this different? Very little has changed. Perhaps your perspective did based on what you decided to buy, but that doesn't change how things actually are.

If you want to analyse like that:

- ATI had 6 months of single GPU top performance.

- The temperature delta increased and the ATI cards are more power friendly at idle.

I guess that is the inability to refer facts like these, as an example, that people attack on your posting.

Not that I see what is the advantage of this comparison.

EDIt: Of course, how could I forgot, prices been sucking for longer.

 

[Skurge]

I do the same with ATi, it's just this forum is full of a bunch of nV bashers and noone really picks on ATi much.

Who ever has superior performance/cards/execution/prices usually gets bashed less. AMD was getting bashed pretty bad during the 2900/3800 times, it eased up during 4800 times.

What is different this round then last? nV is a little bit faster for single GPUs(4870x2 was the top card for quite some time prior to 295 too), comes with a cost premium, is larger and hotter. How is this different? Very little has changed. Perhaps your perspective did based on what you decided to buy, but that doesn't change how things actually are.

Difference would be AMD launched on time, last gen i think they were a month apart. AMD has a full line up, nV still has 2 or so months before they do (thats 6-8 months after AMDs whole line up) AMD cards. Cause of their lead to market AMD cards are still far more widely available.

 

[Gikaseixas]

What is different this round then last? nV is a little bit faster for single GPUs(4870x2 was the top card for quite some time prior to 295 too), comes with a cost premium, is larger and hotter. How is this different? Very little has changed. Perhaps your perspective did based on what you decided to buy, but that doesn't change how things actually are.

the fastest card is no longer an Nvidia Card, best price/performace crown is still ATI's, most efficient gpu design is still ATI's, best overclocker is not an Nvidia card now.

I could keep going but see last time Nvidia had the edge but this round's ATI. Are you able to admit it???? Hard???? See that's what i mean.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

What is different this round then last? nV is a little bit faster for single GPUs(4870x2 was the top card for quite some time prior to 295 too), comes with a cost premium, is larger and hotter. How is this different? Very little has changed. Perhaps your perspective did based on what you decided to buy, but that doesn't change how things actually are.

It's changed because of Fermi's TDP. The GTX 295 was two GT200b GPUs on one card, and that was pushing 300W. Whereas GF100 is pushing 300W by itself. So making a dual-GPU card is no longer as easy as NVidia would like it to be; it's not just a situation of sticking two of them together and dropping clocks a little bit, NVidia needs to have a serious look at how they can drop power consumption enough to stop two GPUs in one card or on the same PCB from killing itself through 100C+ temperatures at load. And of course, if they manage to do this there is no guarantee that it will even be worth the effort performance-wise. The way it's going AMD is probably going to have the same problem, just one or two generations down the track because Evergreen uses much less power than Fermi.

 

[evolucion8]

While is true that ATi's theorically has a superior Angle Independant AF filtering, nVidia cards has less texture shimmering. ATi's Anti Aliasing modes are simply superior to anything nVidia offered until now that nVidia has SSAA, ATi before the GT4x00 had better Geometry Anti Aliasing and nVidia had better Anti Aliasing for transparencies, now nVidia with SSAA simply has the upper edge, a hard to notice at the naked eye, but at what cost though, is a beatiful feature that is simply unusable beyond DX9 games unless if you buy a nuclear reactor to buy a pair of GTX 480 or Tri 480's which will remain the fastest multi GPU setup even after the GTX 495 launch in which will be based on a GTX 460 AFAIK, scaling beyond 2 GPU's is pitiful from both vendors.

The way it's going AMD is probably going to have the same problem, just one or two generations down the track because Evergreen uses much less power than Fermi.

For the time that it happens, newer manufacturing process will come, for the sake of both GPU vendors.

 

[BFG10K]

BFG, why do you say you could have only purchased a 470 or 480? What about 5850, 5870 or 5970? Or do you run Linux?

I don’t think I can live without nVidia’s superior AF and superior application profiles. SSAA was tempting on ATi, but I run 16xAF in every game and I can see the visible filtering transitions on my 5770.

We already had basic SSAA on nVidia but now that proper SSAA is available, I’m talking to nVidia to try and get it to stay as a permanent feature.

Also the 5870 has driver issues in legacy games too. Here for example it’s slower than the GTX470 in Far Cry 1: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GeForce_GTX_470/13.html

Anyway, I like techpowerup’s reviews as they test a lot of games like I do. They waste their time testing low/zero AA and low resolutions though, especially in legacy games.

In Far Cry 1 I use 2560x1600 with 8xMSAA and TrMS when actually playing the game, and the GTX285 gets 87.87 FPS vs the GTX470’s 88.73 FPS, so the latter is not really any faster.

 

[BFG10K]

This is a fun paragraph - basically it says "people need to learn the theories behind how the hardware work to see a visual difference".

No, you can see the difference by simply testing and playing games. Once you get used to a certain level of image quality, it’s very hard to go back to anything worse because you spot the regressions immediately. Learning the theory just helps explain what you’re seeing.

I’m not allowed to link to my own articles, but Google “ATi 5000 Series Image Quality Analysis” (it’s the first hit). Between that article - and the links to other articles on its first page - you should get a good comparison of the GT200 vs the 4000 vs the 5000 and see what I’m talking about. The differences are quite observable and are easily documented objectively and subjectively. Of course it’s up to each person to decide what they prefer.

It’s also silly to see people accusing Ben of being a focus group member or an nVidia cheerleader, because it’s utter nonsense. He has absolutely no affiliation to nVidia other than being regular consumer of their products. Look up his posts from 1999 and you’ll still see him promoting AF and disliking SSAA.

 

[Dadofamunky]

For some, I personally dont care how much power it takes

That's nice. LOL. Some people don't 'believe' in global warming either. Fact is, Nvidia's monolithic approach is wasteful and inefficient. Power consumption for their chips is off the charts. That alone makes it impossible for me to consider them for a future upgrade.