NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

[Charmonium]

With the number of reinfections we're seeing, there's no reason to believe that delta antibodies even confer an immunity to omicron. In fact, as far as I can tell, omicron pretty well just walks over the top of an immune system. Sure, the immune system eventually fights it off, but it seems totally happy infecting someone, multiplying, and spreading, despite the person being 'immune'.

Breathtakingly infectious virus.

From one of the talking doctor-heads on MSNBC - omicron apparently DOES still match 3 of the spike protein flavors in the vaccines. So you'll have SOME antibodies if it finds you (/me, deep in my bunker). You'll just need a butt-load (medical term) more. And also apparently, a booster will give that sort of overkill. Beyond that, updated vaxes are already in the pipe.

If this was going to be done with a dart-gun, I would volunteer myself !! 😛

You want your guns? We got your guns right here. (to be spoken NJ-ese, aaayyy, fugetaboutit)

 

[balloonshark]

So my family won't get vaxxed despite most of them having covid already. My sister's daughter and her boyfriend both have lost their sense of smell. No idea if their 3 year old daughter lost hers or not. My sister's friend from high school who was perfectly healthly got it and ended up the hospital last week on oxygen is now back home still on oxygen. The husband of her lifelong friend is the hospital begging for them to let him die. I was told all this tonight and mentioned to her to get vaxxed once again and she still ignores me like I didn't say anything. She tells me on monday that it's just the flu. I'm at a complete loss as she has health problems herself (pre-diabetic, hypothyroid, etc.) and is a little overweight.

I hate that this thing became political since it's my family that's being misinformed and hurt. I only hope she got it when her son did and that she was non-symptomatic. If not I fear the worse since she seems to get everything coming a going.

 

[Charmonium]

So my family won't get vaxxed despite most of them having covid already. My sister's daughter and her boyfriend both have lost their sense of smell. No idea if their 3 year old daughter lost hers or not. My sister's friend from high school who was perfectly healthly got it and ended up the hospital last week on oxygen is now back home still on oxygen. The husband of her lifelong friend is the hospital begging for them to let him die. I was told all this tonight and mentioned to her to get vaxxed once again and she still ignores me like I didn't say anything. She tells me on monday that it's just the flu. I'm at a complete loss as she has health problems herself (pre-diabetic, hypothyroid, etc.) and is a little overweight.

I hate that this thing became political since it's my family that's being misinformed and hurt. I only hope she got it when her son did and that she was non-symptomatic. If not I fear the worse since she seems to get everything coming a going.

They seem like they're beyond reach at this point. If you decide to try though, one way is to see if you can find out what their real objections are - not just whatever youtube crap they normally parrot. Those "reasons" tend to just be camo for whatever is really motivating them - dis-motivating them? If you show that you're genuinely curious and use what I'll call "objective language" rather words that have implicit judgments built into them, that should at least get you closer to the truth.

In the meantime, is there any chance you get them to take some nutritional supplements? Most people are vitamin D3 deficient, so I'd start with that one. Zinc is another one that's important for immunity. It's not going to keep them from getting sick, but it might give them an important advantage when they do.

It's also not a bad idea to poke around and see how available monoclonal antibodies are in your area so that you're ready to pounce when the time comes. As one doctor said, there are going to be only 2 groups of people - ones who've been vaccinated and ones who get covid. No one is getting out of this unscathed.

 

[K1052]

Things are going splendidly; ICU bed utilization is at 96% statewide in Arizona and there are only 7 open beds in my county with a population of a bit over a million. Regular patient beds are also at 96% utilization but there are a lot more of those.

A half dozen states are basically tapped out again with more likely to be soon at least regionally. Once again well above 90% of these people are unvaccinated.

 

[K1052]

No one is getting out of this unscathed.

The triple vaccinated probably are.

 

[Geekbabe]

My husband goes for his Moderna booster shot today! Best gift ever, my entire household fully vaccinated ❤️

 

[Muse]

The triple vaccinated probably are.

That's me and I'm going shopping today, something I did only twice before vaxxed.

 

[pmv]

Well, I've had my booster over a month ago, so I suppose I'm as safe as I can be. But I find it surprising that three jabs would be so much better than two. I'd have naively assumed that if the antibodies don't recognise the mutated virus that having more of the wrong antibodies wouldn't help.

Seems like another example of how that aphorism that says "madness is doing the same thing again and expecting different results" is completely wrong. Doing 'the same thing' in the sense of getting jabbed again with the same vaccines, does indeed produce dramatically better results.

Two jabs offer little protection against Omicron infection, UK data shows

Health agency says booster raises protection as new daily infection figure rises to highest since January

www.theguardian.com

 

[K1052]

Well, I've had my booster over a month ago, so I suppose I'm as safe as I can be. But I find it surprising that three jabs would be so much better than two. I'd have naively assumed that if the antibodies don't recognise the mutated virus that having more of the wrong antibodies wouldn't help.

Seems like another example of how that aphorism that says "madness is doing the same thing again and expecting different results" is completely wrong. Doing 'the same thing' in the sense of getting jabbed again with the same vaccines, does indeed produce dramatically better results.

Two jabs offer little protection against Omicron infection, UK data shows

Health agency says booster raises protection as new daily infection figure rises to highest since January

www.theguardian.com

Breadth of neutralizing antibodies improves after the third dose. I think this was generally expected. A number of vaccines are a three dose series at an increasing interval.

 

[Charmonium]

Well, I've had my booster over a month ago, so I suppose I'm as safe as I can be. But I find it surprising that three jabs would be so much better than two. I'd have naively assumed that if the antibodies don't recognise the mutated virus that having more of the wrong antibodies wouldn't help.

Seems like another example of how that aphorism that says "madness is doing the same thing again and expecting different results" is completely wrong. Doing 'the same thing' in the sense of getting jabbed again with the same vaccines, does indeed produce dramatically better results.

Two jabs offer little protection against Omicron infection, UK data shows

Health agency says booster raises protection as new daily infection figure rises to highest since January

www.theguardian.com

I got mine a while ago. I'm due again in Feb-you-ary (hehe)

I'm trying to not mention this too often, but covid is related to the cold virus - same family IIRC. And it's just dumb luck that this particular group of viruses don't create any sort of long-lasting immunity. So just like with colds, there's no reason you can't get one after another after another. It's just that cold viruses don't tear up your lung, f*** with your brain and senses, etc.

 

[balloonshark]

They seem like they're beyond reach at this point. If you decide to try though, one way is to see if you can find out what their real objections are - not just whatever youtube crap they normally parrot. Those "reasons" tend to just be camo for whatever is really motivating them - dis-motivating them? If you show that you're genuinely curious and use what I'll call "objective language" rather words that have implicit judgments built into them, that should at least get you closer to the truth.

In the meantime, is there any chance you get them to take some nutritional supplements? Most people are vitamin D3 deficient, so I'd start with that one. Zinc is another one that's important for immunity. It's not going to keep them from getting sick, but it might give them an important advantage when they do.

It's also not a bad idea to poke around and see how available monoclonal antibodies are in your area so that you're ready to pounce when the time comes. As one doctor said, there are going to be only 2 groups of people - ones who've been vaccinated and ones who get covid. No one is getting out of this unscathed.

Thanks for sharing your advice. Her reality is totally different than my reality. She told me sometime before the 2020 election that I was the only person she knew with my leanings/views. She is steeped in misinformation and doesn't realize or care that google, facebook, tik tok, etc. will happily keep feeding her confirmation bias by not allowing her to see the other reality without it being in a negative light. You're advice to use "objective language" when speaking about covid seems like solid advice. I fear that I am just one grasshopper chirping a song in a field of grasshoppers singing a different tune though. I must keep trying though.

She does take a high dose of vitamin d and a b12 shot since her doctor found her deficient. Not sure if she takes vitamin c but her son does occasionally. None of them eat what I consider healthy foods.

I keep telling her that Delta is so contagious that everyone is going to get covid. Our state has seen its cases more than double since our delta wave low of 4501 on Nov 25th so no idea how much of the monoclonal antibodies are still around.

 

[Brainonska511]

I'm trying to not mention this too often, but covid is related to the cold virus - same family IIRC. And it's just dumb luck that this particular group of viruses don't create any sort of long-lasting immunity. So just like with colds, there's no reason you can't get one after another after another. It's just that cold viruses don't tear up your lung, f*** with your brain and senses, etc.

I'd just point out that coronaviruses are just one class of viruses that can cause "the common cold". There are a number of different viruses that can lead to cold-like symptoms.

Common Cold Viruses

xkcd.com

 

[dullard]

Breadth of neutralizing antibodies improves after the third dose. I think this was generally expected. A number of vaccines are a three dose series at an increasing interval.

Hepatitis B: 3 doses
Rotavirus: 2 or 3 doses, depending on the type
DtaP: 4 doses
Hib: 3 or 4 doses
Pneumococcal: 4 doses
Polio: 3 doses
Influenza: annually

Immunization Schedules for 18 & Younger

View and print CDC recommended immunization schedules.

www.cdc.gov

The 1 or 2 doses we originally got for Covid vaccines was based on only a little knowledge of how long the antibodies last. And it was based on the harsh reality of getting billions of people vaccinated quickly (easier with 1 or 2 doses than 3).

I suspect that this is very much like the flu vaccine that might need to be given regularly throughout our lives.

 

[Brainonska511]

Hepatitis B: 3 doses
Rotavirus: 2 or 3 doses, depending on the type
DtaP: 4 doses
Hib: 3 or 4 doses
Pneumococcal: 4 doses
Polio: 3 doses
Influenza: annually

Immunization Schedules for 18 & Younger

View and print CDC recommended immunization schedules.

www.cdc.gov

The 1 or 2 doses we originally got for Covid vaccines was based on only a little knowledge of how long the antibodies last. And it was based on the harsh reality of getting billions of people vaccinated quickly (easier with 1 or 2 doses than 3).

I suspect that this is very much like the flu vaccine that might need to be given regularly throughout our lives.

Don't forget tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis: 5 doses of DTAP from 2 months to 4-6 years, and then TDAP every 10 years starting in adolescence

 

[pmv]

Hepatitis B: 3 doses
Rotavirus: 2 or 3 doses, depending on the type
DtaP: 4 doses
Hib: 3 or 4 doses
Pneumococcal: 4 doses
Polio: 3 doses
Influenza: annually

Immunization Schedules for 18 & Younger

View and print CDC recommended immunization schedules.

www.cdc.gov

The 1 or 2 doses we originally got for Covid vaccines was based on only a little knowledge of how long the antibodies last. And it was based on the harsh reality of getting billions of people vaccinated quickly (easier with 1 or 2 doses than 3).

I suspect that this is very much like the flu vaccine that might need to be given regularly throughout our lives.

Though with the flu vaccine, don't they update the vaccine each time, in an attempt to target the most common flu virus going around each season? Because it mutates and is different each time round? So it's not the same vaccine each time.

The thing that mildly surprises me about the COVID vaccine, is that it seems as if it's saying that quantity is as good as quality - three doses of the same vaccine being better at dealing with the variants than just two are. You don't need a vaccine specifically tailored to the new variant, just more of the existing one will do the trick.

The data suggests that people who have had two doses of the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab 25 or more weeks ago have far lower protection against symptomatic infection with Omicron than with Delta.

While the data suggests such individuals have about 40% protection against Delta at this time point, protection against symptomatic infection with Omicron could be less than 10%.

...

A similar trend was seen for those who have had two doses of the Pfizer jab, with about 60% protection against Delta at 25 or more weeks since the second dose, and just under 40% protection against Omicron at the same time point – although, again, there are uncertainties around the figures.

However, a Pfizer/BioNTech booster jab, given after an initial round of either Oxford/AstraZeneca or Pfizer, raised the level of protection, offering 70-75% protection against symptomatic infection.

I assume this is what K1052 means by "Breadth of neutralizing antibodies ", but I'm mildly surprised that "depth" can also increase "breadth", i.e. that quantity can affect quality.

 

[dullard]

Though with the flu vaccine, don't they update the vaccine each time, in an attempt to target the most common flu virus going around each season? Because it mutates and is different each time round? So it's not the same vaccine each time.

The thing that mildly surprises me about the COVID vaccine, is that it seems as if it's saying that quantity is as good as quality - three doses of the same vaccine being better at dealing with the variants than just two are. You don't need a vaccine specifically tailored to the new variant, just more of the existing one will do the trick.

I assume this is what K1052 means by "Breadth of neutralizing antibodies ", but I'm mildly surprised that "depth" can also increase "breadth", i.e. that quantity can affect quality.

I'm going a bit more into speculation on this post than I normally do. Immunology is outside my training, but I have good immunologist friends that like to talk about these things.

From what I gather, your body isn't as perfect as we think. It doesn't produce a large quantity of the exact same antibody. It instead produces a range of different antibodies close to the target. Think of it as a bell curve. The bulk of the antibodies are a good fit, but there are tails on a bell curve that are not a perfect fit. One of those tails fits Omicron better than the bulk. But due to the way tails on a bell curve are small, we just won't have much of that antibody. However, if you have 10x larger bell curve (from more vaccines or a more recent vaccine), then your tail will be 10x larger. That might be just enough to help you through Omicron.

There is a theory out there that it is better to be vaccinated with multiple variants of a disease rather than just one. That way, instead of a bell curve, centered on that one vaccine, you get a 2-humped camel, or even a several-humped camel shape. If vaccines were a spectrum slightly different variants, then your body would be forced to generate a whole spectrum of antibodies -- theoretically giving a broad spectrum of immunity. There is some research into this, but that field is still fairly new.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Vaccine passport system now permanent... not that I'm surprised, I kind of figured that from the start, but now it's official.

Ontario announces changes to proof of vaccination system as it extends program indefinitely

Ontario has announced changes to the proof of vaccination system after a 'sudden escalation' of Omicron cases and data suggesting it will be the dominant strain by January.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

I still think it's insane that we need this new form of ID now just to do basic things. Have not bothered to get mine yet but probably will have to eventually. NB is looking at making it mandatory for grocery stores too, I'm sure it will eventually be that way everywhere.

Yet another license we need to have, carry, and manage and yet another thing businesses need to deal with, forever. I'm sure at some point it will even require to pay to renew it every year or so. Just a money grab like every other license system.

 

[nakedfrog]

Vaccine passport system now permanent... not that I'm surprised, I kind of figured that from the start, but now it's official.

Ontario announces changes to proof of vaccination system as it extends program indefinitely

Ontario has announced changes to the proof of vaccination system after a 'sudden escalation' of Omicron cases and data suggesting it will be the dominant strain by January.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

I still think it's insane that we need this new form of ID now just to do basic things. Have not bothered to get mine yet but probably will have to eventually. NB is looking at making it mandatory for grocery stores too, I'm sure it will eventually be that way everywhere.

Yet another license we need to have, carry, and manage and yet another thing businesses need to deal with, forever. I'm sure at some point it will even require to pay to renew it every year or so. Just a money grab like every other license system.

Oh, STFU 🙄

 

[Charmonium]

Thanks for sharing your advice. Her reality is totally different than my reality. She told me sometime before the 2020 election that I was the only person she knew with my leanings/views. She is steeped in misinformation and doesn't realize or care that google, facebook, tik tok, etc. will happily keep feeding her confirmation bias by not allowing her to see the other reality without it being in a negative light. You're advice to use "objective language" when speaking about covid seems like solid advice. I fear that I am just one grasshopper chirping a song in a field of grasshoppers singing a different tune though. I must keep trying though.

She does take a high dose of vitamin d and a b12 shot since her doctor found her deficient. Not sure if she takes vitamin c but her son does occasionally. None of them eat what I consider healthy foods.

I keep telling her that Delta is so contagious that everyone is going to get covid. Our state has seen its cases more than double since our delta wave low of 4501 on Nov 25th so no idea how much of the monoclonal antibodies are still around.

I'm happy to hear about the supplements. As for the monoclonals, I'm sure they're still around. Plus the meds to treat covid should be getting emergency use authorization soon.

It sounds like you're in Trump country. If I were in your position, I'd just hide. Maybe try to find some other folks who still rely on information from comparatively objective sources. Here in NJ, the Trump folks tend to stay under the radar, but you can often tell.I just try to smile and be polite.

So, you're saying the ghost of Hugo Chavez performed an ancient Aztec ritual that will eventually lead to the Rapture? That sounds legit. Oh my, look at the time. I have to take my cat to the stylist.

 

[Muse]

Breadth of neutralizing antibodies improves after the third dose. I think this was generally expected. A number of vaccines are a three dose series at an increasing interval.

Saw on TV news tonight expert opinion that fully vaccinated should now be 3 shots, not two.

Pfizer two shots is showing 37% effectiveness against Omicron, but 3 shots 75%, a world of difference.

 

[Muse]

Vaccine passport system now permanent... not that I'm surprised, I kind of figured that from the start, but now it's official.

Ontario announces changes to proof of vaccination system as it extends program indefinitely

Ontario has announced changes to the proof of vaccination system after a 'sudden escalation' of Omicron cases and data suggesting it will be the dominant strain by January.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

I still think it's insane that we need this new form of ID now just to do basic things. Have not bothered to get mine yet but probably will have to eventually. NB is looking at making it mandatory for grocery stores too, I'm sure it will eventually be that way everywhere.

Yet another license we need to have, carry, and manage and yet another thing businesses need to deal with, forever. I'm sure at some point it will even require to pay to renew it every year or so. Just a money grab like every other license system.

Dude you are turning into a paranoid. If you don't reverse course you're going to be a really sad case.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Dude you are turning into a paranoid. If you don't reverse course you're going to be a really sad case.

No, I am seeing the light. Almost all of the conspiracy theories so far have ended up being true.

 

[Brainonska511]

No, I am seeing the light. Almost all of the conspiracy theories so far have ended up being true.

What conspiracy theories have turned out to be true?

Maybe the rest of us are fed up with toxic individualism and people's insane notions that they no longer have duties to society at large.

 

[Charmonium]

I understand being skeptical of govt. They've always lied to us, hidden their mistakes, or at least tried to.

What I don't understand is how they can believe mutually inconsistent "facts." They'll talk about how incompetent govt is, how they are all bumbling morons or that they couldn't find their own ass if you cut off and handed it to them. Then, in the same breath and without skipping even a fraction of a beat, they'll tell you about these elaborate and complex conspiracies that you can't even understand without visual aids.

Are they talking about our govt in different dimensions? Different parts of the govt. It's a blinding inconsistency. Maybe that's why they don't see it? Or maybe, both NEED to be true for their *ahem* "belief system to work.

 

[Red Squirrel]

What conspiracy theories have turned out to be true?

In general the vaccine passport system, or the fact that it would become permanent was seen as a conspiracy theory at the beginning, and now it's true. Digital ID system as well was a conspiracy, and they're now talking about that for 2022. If you read between the lines it's pretty easy to guess what the potential steps of that could lead to once it's refined. Basically a social credit system.