No Fermi benchmarks / Price & TDP revealed

[crisium]

Yes they dont. Then I read this:

"Internal benchmarks reveal that GeForce GTX 470 is some 5-10% faster than Radeon HD 5850." :thumbsdown:

Ok, let's say it's only 7.5% faster. Then to have the same price-to-performance ratio as the 5850, the 5850 would have to be priced at ~$325. Yeah, it is. The 470 is priced perfectly people.

So why is your thumb down?

 

[GodisanAtheist]

So whats going to happen on the 26th? A bunch of magic tricks played to Final Countdown?

I mean, the only thing really left to be known is the benchmarks... so if its not going to be available on the 26th, and we're not getting benches on the 26th, then ???

 

[Lonyo]

Heat and power is irrelevant for the majority of the targetted audience. Who is going to build a high end gaming rig then decide against a product becuase it uses more power and generates more heat???? Those decisions come into play in the OEM market.

Anyways we will have to agree to disagree on the intorductory pricing. 349 and 499 for their high end cards is reasonable given past pricing. If people decide the premium isnt worth it the price will fall inline with the ATI product. i suspect they will easily get away with it for a time period as demand outpaces supply.

I would think a lot of people already have gaming rigs, and they might upgrade.
I'm on a 400w PSU and would fairly happily upgrade to an HD5850. HD5870 is getting marginal, GTX470 is out of bounds, and a GTX480 is a joke.
$500 + new PSU ($50~100) vs ~$400 for the HD5870.

Power does come into play if you are upgrading, or building new, since you need a bigger PSU. Usually that costs more money, in addition to the money you are already paying for the card. This isn't a mega powerful dual GPU card which annihilates everything which has come before (e.g. GX2, 295, 5970). This is a regular single card which wouldn't really be advisable on anything under 500w, and is priced much higher than the competition.

 

[1h4x4s3x]

So why is your thumb down?

Hope you realize those prices above are MSRP.

 

[1h4x4s3x]

So whats going to happen on the 26th? A bunch of magic tricks played to Final Countdown?

I mean, the only thing really left to be known is the benchmarks... so if its not going to be available on the 26th, and we're not getting benches on the 26th, then ???

You'll get the specs but you might as well take a look here:

 

[Daedalus685]

Heat and power is irrelevant for the majority of the targetted audience. Who is going to build a high end gaming rig then decide against a product becuase it uses more power and generates more heat???? Those decisions come into play in the OEM market.

That is kind of a blanket statement isn't it? Granted, power is far less important to most of us than performance but if the performance/power ratio is largely out of balance it certainly will affect many of our choices.

There is certainly a point where X watts is not worth Y FPS.. That point is different for all of us but it is a perfectly valid and important consideration. 5% performance might be worth twice the power to some, others it certainly won't be. That a lot depends on the cooling ability of the product as well.


As for heat... I never understood why we separate these two things... The core temperature of a product is entirely meaningless provided it runs at spec (though we don't want it radiatively heating the surroundings.. so there is a limit). All of the power will end up in heat at one point or another, keeping the GPU core at a constant 50C doesn't mean much if you are pumping 300W of heat into the case. I'd be much more concerned about thermal isolation of the GPU and whether it is cool enough to over clock than the hard fast core temperature of it. I know that isn't all that related to this talk, it irks me when people talk about power and heat being bad as f they are independent things... I suppose power can be bad because of heat (or equally bad because of electricity cost and PSU cost). Power is heat.. power and cooling can be independently bad, but that is not a function of the GPU itself. Like claiming that the noise and volume of something are bad... Semantics I know /endrant

 

[Genx87]

I would think a lot of people already have gaming rigs, and they might upgrade.
I'm on a 400w PSU and would fairly happily upgrade to an HD5850. HD5870 is getting marginal, GTX470 is out of bounds, and a GTX480 is a joke.
$500 + new PSU ($50~100) vs ~$400 for the HD5870.

Power does come into play if you are upgrading, or building new, since you need a bigger PSU. Usually that costs more money, in addition to the money you are already paying for the card. This isn't a mega powerful dual GPU card which annihilates everything which has come before (e.g. GX2, 295, 5970). This is a regular single card which wouldn't really be advisable on anything under 500w, and is priced much higher than the competition.

Dont want to sound like a dick. But a 400 Watt PSU on a gaming rig? Welcome to 2003.
Anybody contemplating a 400-500 dollar purchase for a single item would probably have little problem dropping another 50-75 on a PSU if they have to. But I suspect a majority of them already have 500+ Watt PSUs they should be able to handle all of these cards.

My machine was originally built from the ground up in Nov 2007 and has a 550 Watt PSU in it.

 

[RussianSensation]

Ok, let's say it's only 7.5% faster. Then to have the same price-to-performance ratio as the 5850, the 5850 would have to be priced at ~$325. Yeah, it is. The 470 is priced perfectly people.

So why is your thumb down?

1. 5850's MSRP was $259 and it was available for 6 months ~ $280-300.

2. 5850's market prices of $320 right now are ridiculously overpriced (i.e., you can have a 5870 for $390 or 4890 for $200). So using 5850's "inflated" prices to insinuate that 470 is priced right is misleading.

3. Being 6 months late to the market, you would expect same performance at a lower price, or higher performance at the same price. I am sorry I have higher expectations than you I guess.

4. MSRP of $349 likely means market prices in the $370-380 range or higher given the rumoured availability.

 

[Genx87]

1. 5850's MSRP was $259 and it was available for 6 months ~ $280-300.

2. 5850's market prices of $320 right now are ridiculously overpriced (i.e., you can have a 5870 for $390 or 4890 for $200). So using 5850's "inflated" prices to insinuate that 470 is priced right is misleading.

In what way are you gauging the 5850 is ridiculously overpriced? Because AMD suggested a 259 MSRP? The market is speaking it is closer to 320. I'd say using the 5850's market prices to show the 470 is fine on pricing is correct.

3. Being 6 months late to the market, you would expect same performance at a lower price, or higher performance at the same price. I am sorry I have higher expectations than you I guess.

Who cares once you can purchase the card? Are you going to have a checklist of what you want in a card and include its timely fashion into the market? If it is 6 months late, I wont buy?

4. MSRP of $349 likely means market prices in the $370-380 range or higher given the rumoured availability.

If that is true then how can you say the MSRP is bad? The market will have said the MSRP was too low.

 

[RussianSensation]

And your point? Were you under some illusion these cards were going to be 30% faster or something?

I fully expected GTX 470 to compete with 5870 in performance or faster and 480 version to slot between 5870 and 5970:

1) Given NV's strategy of a single large monolithic die;
2) Complex memory bandwidth of 320/384 bit;
3) 500 mm[FONT=verdana,geneva]²[/FONT] gpu barely competing with a [FONT=verdana,geneva]334 mm². Seems to me like a bloated architecture.
4) [/FONT][FONT=verdana,geneva]Time. I don't see how this is not a factor for you in estimating the performance you should be getting.

We expect performance to double every 18 months, right? Then, I expect 33% faster performance at the same price in 6 months or 33% lower prices with equal performance. Generally, it's hard to extract 33% faster performance from the same architecture. This is why we see 2x the performance increase every 18 months from one gen to the next (This happened from 7900 to 8800 series and to GTX280 series). Lower prices are then the most logical outcome of technological progress. Since we are not seeing this with GTX470/480, I am expressing disappointment. BTW, my previous card was an 8800GTS 320 (so I am not trying to hate NV).[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,geneva]
[/FONT]

In what way are you gauging the 5850 is ridiculously overpriced?

[FONT=verdana,geneva]
5) 5850's performance isn't that great in the majority of games to begin with over last generation: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd5830_6.html#sect0
With games like Metro 2033 and BF:BC2 it's starting to perform better though.

Also look at GTX275 compared to 5850. GTX470 will have almost double the SPs and it still barely beats 5850?


[/FONT]

 

[Lonyo]

Dont want to sound like a dick. But a 400 Watt PSU on a gaming rig? Welcome to 2003.
Anybody contemplating a 400-500 dollar purchase for a single item would probably have little problem dropping another 50-75 on a PSU if they have to. But I suspect a majority of them already have 500+ Watt PSUs they should be able to handle all of these cards.

My machine was originally built from the ground up in Nov 2007 and has a 550 Watt PSU in it.

You do know a 400w PSU would be able to run an HD5850 and i7 870, right?
Or is that not a very good gaming rig?

Just because NV wants to release a graphics card with a TDP equal to the entire power consumption a reasonable gaming rig could use doesn't mean that it's good.

And it's not about dropping $50 in addition to a $500 card, it's about potentially dropping $150+ over an HD5870 which performs only a little slower.

 

[tviceman]

They are pretty terrible.
$260 for the HD5850 at launch, 6 months later NV release something 5~10% faster and 30+% more expensive and consuming more power.
$380 for the HD5870 at launch, 6 months later NV release something 5~10% faster and 30+% more expensive and consuming more power.

Now OK, the prices for ATI have gone up, but that's because they have no competition. This is the NV competition, and we're ending up with higher prices for tiny performance improvements. That's terrible.

You're awesome. You can spin just about anything to make it look good or bad, depending on your OPINION of it. You are quoting six month old prices of cards in your terrible argument and best of all no reviews are out yet you are already telling us exactly how fermi performs. What else can you see into that slanted crystal ball of yours?

Keep up the great work.

 

[raygunpk]

You do know a 400w PSU would be able to run an HD5850 and i7 870, right?
Or is that not a very good gaming rig?

Just because NV wants to release a graphics card with a TDP equal to the entire power consumption a reasonable gaming rig could use doesn't mean that it's good.

And it's not about dropping $50 in addition to a $500 card, it's about potentially dropping $150+ over an HD5870 which performs only a little slower.

really? man i wish i didn't buy a new psu then

 

[Genx87]

You do know a 400w PSU would be able to run an HD5850 and i7 870, right?
Or is that not a very good gaming rig?

Just because NV wants to release a graphics card with a TDP equal to the entire power consumption a reasonable gaming rig could use doesn't mean that it's good.

And it's not about dropping $50 in addition to a $500 card, it's about potentially dropping $150+ over an HD5870 which performs only a little slower.

I dont know anybody who buys 400 Watt PSUs for home built gaming rigs. Hence my reason for saying welcome to 2003. When did you get that PSU? I'd hope not within the past 2-3 years. I really think your argument while valid applies to such a miniscule % of the gaming community it is pointless to argue over.

 

[OCGuy]

$499 would be awesome!

 

[OCGuy]

You're awesome. You can spin just about anything to make it look good or bad, depending on your OPINION of it. You are quoting six month old prices of cards in your terrible argument and best of all no reviews are out yet you are already telling us exactly how fermi performs. What else can you see into that slanted crystal ball of yours?

Keep up the great work.

You learn to ignore this type of thing, otherwise it will just drive you crazy.


------

400w PSU? This is an enthusiast forum, for the enthusiast crowd.

 

[ZimZum]

Heat and power is irrelevant for the majority of the targetted audience. Who is going to build a high end gaming rig then decide against a product becuase it uses more power and generates more heat????

Those things usually coincide with poor overclocks. Alot of people overclock. Also people with SFF cases care a lot about heat. So do people who care about noise, as more heat in the case = fans working harder to dissipate that heat. High power requirements become an issue when looking at SLI as a viable upgrade path. If you want to add another 4xx in the future. Your likely going to need a 800watt PSU to be able to handle 2 Fermi's.

 

[Genx87]

I fully expected GTX 470 to compete with 5870 in performance or faster and 480 version to slot between 5870 and 5970:

1) Given NV's strategy of a single large monolithic die;
2) Complex memory bandwidth of 320/384 bit;
3) 500 mm[FONT=verdana,geneva]²[/FONT] gpu barely competing with a [FONT=verdana,geneva]334 mm². Seems to me like bloated architecture.
4) 5850's performance isn't that great in the majority of games to begin with over last generation: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd5830_6.html#sect0
With games like Metro 2033 and BF:BC2 it's starting to perform better though.
- Also look at GTX275 compared to 5850. GTX470 will have almost double the SPs and it still barely beats 5850?


[/FONT]

1. How does a single monolithic die affect me when playing games?
2. How does the memory architecture of Fermi affect me while playing games?
3. How does the physical size of Fermi affect me while playing games?
4. So AMDs 320 dollar card is already taxed. Sounds like we are on the tick side of the software\hardware pendelum.

I'd say right now we are being held back by CPU performance.

 

[OCGuy]

1. How does a single monolithic die affect me when playing games?
2. How does the memory architecture of Fermi affect me while playing games?
3. How does the physical size of Fermi affect me while playing games?
4. So AMDs 320 dollar card is already taxed. Sounds like we are on the tick side of the software\hardware pendelum.

Those are all Zone talking points, much like saying Phenom > Q6600 because The Q6600 was just two E6600s "taped together."

It didnt really work out that way though....

 

[RussianSensation]

1. How does a single monolithic die affect me when playing games?
2. How does the memory architecture of Fermi affect me while playing games?
3. How does the physical size of Fermi affect me while playing games?

Those 3 points were to answer your question as to what kind of performance I expected from GTX470 and why. They solely explain my disappointment with rumoured benchmarks (if true). They have nothing to do with the gaming experience.

4. So AMDs 320 dollar card is already taxed. Sounds like we are on the tick side of the software\hardware pendelum.

I'd say right now we are being held back by CPU performance.

Considering DX11 vs. DX10 results for 5800 series, I would conclude that most modern games where you actually need a GTX470/480/5870 are severely GPU limited with a Core i7: http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,7...tX-11-und-GPU-PhysX/Action-Spiel/Test/?page=2

If you don't intend to play BF:BC2, Stalker: Call of Pripyat, or Metro 2033, then you don't even need the cards we are discussing.

 

[Lonyo]

You're awesome. You can spin just about anything to make it look good or bad, depending on your OPINION of it. You are quoting six month old prices of cards in your terrible argument and best of all no reviews are out yet you are already telling us exactly how fermi performs. What else can you see into that slanted crystal ball of yours?

Keep up the great work.

I am quoting 6 month old prices for a reason.
That reason is because I am pointing out how we have gone BACKWARDS.

Typically any enthusiast would want prices to drop.
Prices haven't dropped, they have infact increased quite a bit over the last 6 months.

NV are releasing new products. Relative to the current pricing of those 6 month old products, they are not terribly priced.
Relative to where one might expect we should be at this point in time, they are terrible, because they are maintaining the status quo of high prices, and putting zero impetus on AMD to drop prices back to where they were 6 months ago.

THIS IS A BAD THING. HIGHER PRICES ARE BAD. ANY REAL CONSUMER SHOULD WANT PRICES TO DROP.

If you can't see that this is a bad thing for us, the consumer, the enthusiast, then you are blind.

 

[RussianSensation]

Lonyo hit the nail on the head with his last post. How can anyone say: "Oh a card is a 6 months late, with barely faster performance than the competition, priced higher. That's not bad!"

If consumers actually agreed to this, NV and ATI could pump out 10% faster refreshes every 6 months indefinitely!

 

[Attic]

Lets wait till the cards are reviewed and then we can see all the propaganda nVidia and it's loyalists have been spewing for what it's worth.

Only through propaganda could people be expected to see nVidia's 6+ month late, power hungry, neglible performance gain over 6 month old cards, while being more expensive as some kind of a positive or even palatable thing.

The cards a Fail FFS, the 26th of march date has now been missed, it's one failure after another. nVidia PR is going to be working full throttle to spin the FAIL into a success.

Jesus.

 

[yh125d]

Yet another completely unsubstantiated "we have learned that pricing is XXX" website looking for hits. How many pricing/spec rumors are we up to now? Like 5?



ugh

 

[Informant X]

349 and 499 is the MSRP!!!

Expect those prices to climb sharply when stock is actually on the shelves, which at this pace who knows may even be more limited than ATI. It's more fair to compare the MSRP of the 5850 and the 5870 to these Fermi cards.