NJ Teacher's Union refusing minor paycut

[Fear No Evil]

I work in IT for a public school district.



Knowing a lot about a certain subject does not make you a good teacher. Many highly smart and skilled people are very poor teachers because they don't connect with their students. They don't inspire their students to ask important questions or think critically.

Having a teaching certificate doesn't do those things either. As indicated by the results of most public schools. I'm willing to best most teachers, especially after teaching for several years, just go into auto-pilot.. Not that I entirely blame them.. but if you do that in the 'real' world you are going to find you don't get raises, promotions, etc..

 

[zsdersw]

Having a teaching certificate doesn't do those things either.

I never said it did.

I'm willing to best most teachers, especially after teaching for several years, just go into auto-pilot.. Not that I entirely blame them.. but if you do that in the 'real' world you are going to find you don't get raises, promotions, etc..

No, most teachers.. in WI anyway.. have professional development and improvement plans that they must follow. There are also curriculum development initiatives that take place periodically throughout any given school year.

 

[Trell]

You are missing all the extra days off that they get during the year.

2 weeks at Christmas
1 week at Easter
5 weeks summer vacation
plus every holiday in existence.

My sister in-law is a teacher. Makes around $50k, has 8 weeks off a year, every holiday off and is home by 4-5 every day.

By most of our standards it would be considered a dream job.

And how many hours a week does she have to spend at home doing lesson plans or grading papers? All the teachers I know work close to 40 hours a week in school and put in an extra 10 or so at home unpaid doing these things.

 

[Red Dawn]

And how many hours a week does she have to spend at home doing lesson plans or grading papers? All the teachers I know work close to 40 hours a week in school and put in an extra 10 or so at home unpaid doing these things.

Maybe his SIL is one of those teachers who are on Auto Pilot.

 

[Fear No Evil]

I never said it did.



No, most teachers.. in WI anyway.. have professional development and improvement plans that they must follow. There are also curriculum development initiatives that take place periodically throughout any given school year.

As a fellow IT person, I'm sure you realize that our jobs require that as well.. which is usually unpaid training we do ourselves to keep current on new technologies. Except I don't get a guaranteed raise for teaching myself Vmware.

 

[Blackjack200]

Heh, people used to look down on people talk about money like it's everything in life. I guess that has changed and money worshiping is back in style.

Well I cannot speak for the rest of the parents but if my kids were to told me they want to make an above national median income, while work with kids and have the time for themselves and their family in a job that is more secure than the most with great benefits and pension, I'd be very happy for them.

I don't think I'd be one to tell my kids what to do, if they wanted to teach, I think I'd support them. I had a casual conversation with my boss a year or two ago, and he was talking about his brother, who is a teacher. My boss said something to the effect of "I just don't know if people appreciate, when they choose a profession like that, how it will limit them down the road in terms of what they can do."

Money worship is silly. But recognizing the flexibility that money can provide is quite different. I'd like my kids to be able to travel, or start a business of their own, or have hobbies that they enjoy pursuing. All of these things are much easier if you make a decent income. Making median income will generally not do it.

What is $50K in terms of the NJ cost of living?

Not much. I made $40k at my first job out of college while living in NJ. I shared an apartment (the second floor of an old crappy townhouse) with a friend and rent still sucked up 1/3 of my paycheck.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Many in the private sector are taking paycuts, you fucktard. I personally took a 16% in August to save some of my employees from getting paycuts, and ended up getting laid off last month anyway. Fuck these greedy teachers.

Man, I am sorry to hear that Bober. Glad to hear some managers still stick up for their employees though.

Back on topic, these teachers need to come back to reality. Many of us have had to take paycuts, get no raises, or face layoffs and these guys aren't immune either. Many of us are tired of teachers whining about their salaries and then comparing what they do for the world to what athletes, actors, etc. do. Earth to teachers:

1. You get a ton of vacation and taking that into account, your pay isn't that bad.

2. You take your work home? Big deal, so do most of us.

3. Athletes and actors are paid by private employers and in terms of supply/demand, are in far shorter supply than teachers. I'm not arguing that a teacher doesn't perform a more valuable function to society, but look at it in economic terms.

4. Good luck convincing people to accept a tax hike to pay you more money when many of those people are unemployed, underemployed, or haven't even gotten cost of living increase in a number of years.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

If you dream of making $50k, you must live in Pakistan.

Did you even read what he wrote? $50K considering the enormous amounts of time off and benefits you get is pretty good money. And no, "taking work home" is a moot argument as most other professions do as well.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I'm aware of what the national median income is. I said if you dream of making $50k.

Would you be happy if your kids told you that their ambition in life is to make $50k?

Guess what? If your ambition in life is to make big bucks, then you probably aren't going to be a teacher in the first place.

 

[Hacp]

What is $50K in terms of the NJ cost of living? Also you get what you pay for. How important is the quality of your children's education to you?

If teacher pay and the quality of education is related then we should pay them a million dollars. Then every child will have had a million dollar eduction.

 

[daishi5]

I will say, though, that if teaching is such a dream job, why aren't more of you teachers? Unless you've ever been a teacher or have close experience with them, you don't know what you're talking about.

I very much support the governor on this issue, however.

There are a few very highly rated teaching schools in the area. I think all of my girlfriends in college except one wanted to be a teacher. From my limited experience, teaching is a dream job. It is not a dream because of the benefits, but all of them wanted to do it because of some teachers influence on them, and they wanted to give that influence to others. The problem is, teachers pay is not determined by a market, and most of the best teachers just want to teach. The whole pay structure seems to be screwed because of the lack of market competition, but even more so because a large portion of the supply of new teachers want to teach more than they want to get paid.

 

[MJinZ]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/by_State
It says new high school teachers get about $43k per year. Middle school and elementary teachers are paid considerably less.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104652.html
Median personal income in New Jersey was $47k in this 2006 data, so a fresh teacher with a 4 year degree earns less than most random people while the median teacher is a lot closer to the state median income.

So how much do teachers work? Luckily one of my friends became an elementary teacher and I could ask her on MSN. She says they stay maybe a day or two after the finals and they get back to school 1-2 weeks before school starts. That leaves about 5 weeks vacation.

Teachers actually do work about 40 hours per week (link)
43k moneys / 47 weeks worked / 40 hours per week = $22.87/hour

FUCKING TEACHERS MAKING ALMOST $23 PER HOUR? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE.


In a couple weeks I'm graduating from electrical engineering and many of my class mates are already getting starting wages around $25/hour. We also get paid overtime (teachers do not). The only perk teachers have that I don't is a better pension.

You forgot to include their job security, government benefits, union increases, and retirement/pensions. For the 3 months out of the year, they have VACATION to do whatever the fuck they want.

 

[MJinZ]

and if you asked my mom or my SIL, you'd find out that they put in tons of hours *after* they got home almost every night from school, and rarely made it home by 4-5.

most of the teachers i've met put in hours well beyond just school operating hours.

ANYbody working in a non-clock-in job (aka/ a REAL job) will do the same thing.... upt in hours WELL beyond the normal 9-5.

 

[MJinZ]

What is $50K in terms of the NJ cost of living? Also you get what you pay for. How important is the quality of your children's education to you?

You do get what you pay for. And you pay a shitload, or were you not paying attention to this thread?

 

[Moonbeam]

They should get no more than the total bonuses paid to the bankers who sank America. Just because they teach kids rather that fuck you in the ass makes no difference. Helping others is automatic low social standing because you have to be stupid to do it. Good people smart people steal from others and are admired for their skill. Of course this can only be true in a nation of self hating swine where if you don't shaft yourself a few times a day you're worthless.

 

[MJinZ]

So important that I won't be putting them in public schools.

And no, you don't get what you pay for. You get what you negotiate for - and then you pay for it. Public schools don't negotiate for quality. The only thing that anyone even bothers to pretend that serves as a proxy for quality is benchmark performance statistics, including inflated scores on dumbed down tests, and minutes of ass time in the desks (never mind if the kids are texting all day).

I guess Massachusetts is special. Our Public schools are basically better than everyone else's private schools. My senior year in HS was 100% AP Classes. Unless you want to go Philips Academy Exeter/Andover, there's no need real need for Harvard-class High Schools around here.

 

[MJinZ]

I don't think I'd be one to tell my kids what to do, if they wanted to teach, I think I'd support them. I had a casual conversation with my boss a year or two ago, and he was talking about his brother, who is a teacher. My boss said something to the effect of "I just don't know if people appreciate, when they choose a profession like that, how it will limit them down the road in terms of what they can do."

Money worship is silly. But recognizing the flexibility that money can provide is quite different. I'd like my kids to be able to travel, or start a business of their own, or have hobbies that they enjoy pursuing. All of these things are much easier if you make a decent income. Making median income will generally not do it.



Not much. I made $40k at my first job out of college while living in NJ. I shared an apartment (the second floor of an old crappy townhouse) with a friend and rent still sucked up 1/3 of my paycheck.

Two teachers making $100K a year living modestly can do whatever the fuck they want, drive a BMW and a Mercedes and go on vacation every summer.

And you can bet two teachers who aren't 25 years old are making closer to $200K a year.

What are you talking about?

 

[Hacp]

I'm aware of what the national median income is. I said if you dream of making $50k.

Would you be happy if your kids told you that their ambition in life is to make $50k?

You mean they want to be above average? Thats great.

 

[Blackjack200]

Guess what? If your ambition in life is to make big bucks, then you probably aren't going to be a teacher in the first place.

So you think being a teacher is a "dream job"?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

So you think being a teacher is a "dream job"?

Here is what I was responding to in your post:

Would you be happy if your kids told you that their ambition in life is to make $50k?

You mentioned making $50K as being the dream or ambition, not the job itself. Which is it -- is the dream the job or only the income level?

I didn't say being a teacher is a dream job, though I am sure it is for some. What I did say is that I'm tired of their whining because all things considered, they make decent money for the time they work.

 

[Blackjack200]

You mean they want to be above average? Thats great.

Maybe for your kids. In fact, you should probably be quite pleased if they turn out mediocre. I'd hope my kids shoot for "exceptional".

 

[Blackjack200]

Here is what I was responding to in your post:



You mentioned making $50K as being the dream or ambition, not the job itself. Which is it -- is the dream the job or only the income level?

I didn't say being a teacher is a dream job, though I am sure it is for some. What I did say is that I'm tired of their whining because all things considered, they make decent money for the time they work.

Either one. Teacher or $50k.

Please try to follow the conversation, PJ said "By most of our standards it would be considered a dream job."

I don't think any $50k job would be a dream job for me, especially not being a teacher.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

He said 11 local unions agreed to the deal, but the central leadership won't approve the freeze and contributions.

i've said it time and time again.
FUCK UNIONS (their leaders in this case).

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Lets see you take a pay cut first and then get back to us.

who's getting a paycut? they're getting a freeze and are being asked to contribute to their benefits.
i willingly accepted one last year and took a cut in my bonus. my portion of HI premiums went up and i accepted.

why the hell can't unions see this?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Did you not read this part?

He added that the state's system is unsustainable because teachers who contribute $124,000 during their lifetime for their pensions get $3.3 million in pension payments and $500,000 in health care benefits in return.


You got some magical mathematical formula in which the above is even remotely sustainable, especially considering that its very likely that a ton of their other state jobs have similar benefits?

that's a pretty good ROI if you ask me.