NFSW (very graphic) :Wikileaks releases video footage of journalist killings

[Zorkorist]

The kids were simply more targets.

-John

 

[Sclamoz]

The kids were simply more targets.

-John

How could they be targets when no one knew they were there?

Except for those who had the benefit of having arrows pointing them out on a video when you couldn't possibly know they were there otherwise of course.

 

[Zorkorist]

Iraq isn't Afghanistan or Mogadishu. People don't walk around with RPGs and Ak-47s for fun typically. On top of that there was a war being fought and we were confiscating weapons from peoples homes to try and stop the insurgency. People who were walking around in public brandishing weapons openly are fighting.

I disagree. Aby westerner/reporter in that time had a full complimrntt of men and weapons behind him.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

How could they be targets when no one knew they were there?

You are right, they weren't targets. Mearly casualtieas.

Nobody was targets, they all were casualties.

-John

 

[Sclamoz]

I disagree. Aby westerner/reporter in that time had a full complimrntt of men and weapons behind him.

-John

Your right, western media traveled with the military as it typically to dangerous to do otherwise as they risked getting kidnapped. So they mostly stayed in the green zone and hired Iraqis to take pictures and videos as they could travel freely.

I shouldn't have to mention this once let alone 3 times but anyone working in the press who isn't carrying any press identification or informing the coalition forces they are there and moving around with an armed group for protection is likely to be killed. Iraq in 2007 was a warzone, it isn't the same place where you live and work, you should try a little harder to break through your bubble.

You are right, they weren't targets. Mearly casualtieas.

Nobody was targets, they all were casualties.

-John

I know you're trying to be smart but again you're wrong. The first group were targets.
The man getting into the van and the driver were targets as it was believed he was an insurgent and was attempting to flee. No one knew about the children till the soldiers arrived.

 

[Zorkorist]

The first group were little more than some American's SICK WAR GAME.

The second group, was possibly hell on earth.

"Control. We have people in a van picking up bodies. Perkmission to engage."

-John

 

[kylebisme]

I never said it contradicted the edited version, but wikileaks edited it to be biased unfortunately.

You suggested watching the full video, even though it doesn't show anything to contradict the edit but was rather only making an honest point. On the other hand, this is bias:

The Apache crew fired because militants "were endangering the stability of Iraq" and because they had positive identification that the militants "had weapons and were using them against coalition and Iraqi security forces," said Maj. Brent Cummings, the battalion's executive officer. "No innocent civilians were killed on our part deliberately. We took great pains to prevent that. I know that two children were hurt, and we did everything we could to help them. I don't know how the children were hurt."

As I said, our military's credibility on this is squat.

People don't walk around with RPGs and Ak-47s for fun typically.

People walk around with things which can be mistaken for such weapons from those gun cams, as what is obviously a camera was. Besides, denying Iraqis the right to bear arms is absurd particular considering the crime rates since we dissolved so much of their government. Even doctors carry AKs for self-defense purposes there; are you fine with slaughtering them in the streets too?

 

[PJABBER]

At this point it becomes obvious that further argument with the willfully ignorant is a useless exercise.

Once someone makes a decision not to examine evidence, fails to even try to see what is before their eyes, is determined to not acknowledge that a circumstance is far from any frame of reference they are capable of, further attempts at discussion are but farce.

Kyle and Zork have shown they are not capable of engaging in intelligent discussion in this thread.

If a weapon is pointed out to them, they claim it is a harmless stick. If a circumstance is explained in detail, they will not accept that interpretation.

Why would they present themselves as fools like this?

Because they have a visceral hatred of the military, of the government that sent them, of the nature of the world? Do they have such a hatred that it consumes them to the point of blindness? Because they have a political agenda that requires it? Because they are simply incapable of rational examination and rational dialogue?

At this point, who knows and who should care?

There are many more serious minded people that might have an interest in the topic, but these two have so little perspective that their comments become irrelevant and altogether very easy to dismiss as simple minded ramblings and ignored.

:awe:

 

[kylebisme]

At this point it becomes obvious that further argument with the willfully ignorant is a useless exercise.

...he says as he waves his hands in denial of the documented facts I presented. Seriously man, why do you hate reality? :\

By the way, here is a little more reality for you to wallow in denial of:

Veteran of "Collateral Murder" Company Speaks Out

WASHINGTON - April 9 - Josh Stieber, who is a former soldier of the “Collateral Murder” Company, says that the acts of brutality caught on film and recently released via Wikileaks are not isolated instances, but were commonplace during his tour of duty.

“A lot of my friends are in that video,” says Stieber. “After watching the video, I would definitely say that that is, nine times out of ten, the way things ended up. Killing was following military protocol. It was going along with the rules as they are.”



Stieber deployed to Baghdad with Bravo Company 2-16, whose members were involved in the incident captured in Wikileaks' “Collateral Murder” video, which has made international headlines by depicting a July 2007 shooting incident outside of Baghdad in which over a dozen people, including two Reuters employees, were killed. Although he was not present at the scene of the video, he knows those who were involved and is familiar with the environment. Stieber, who now works to promote peace and alternatives to war, is speaking publicly about his time in Iraq and the incident captured in this video.



“If these videos shock and revolt you, they show the reality of what war is like,” says Stieber. “If you don’t like what you see in them, it means we should be working harder towards alternatives to war.”

 

[rchiu]

...he says as he waves his hands in denial of the documented facts I presented. Seriously man, why do you hate reality? :\

By the way, here is a little more reality for you to wallow in denial of:

Nobody is in denial. That's how armies are trained, and that's how wars are conducted since the beginning of time. You can see plenty of the same $hit in Vietnam, plus earlier wars if cameras and video equipments were available.

But let me ask all you people sitting in the comfort of your couch in disgust how do you expect your soldiers to fight wars for you? Do you expect armies to train them to value enemies life more than theirs? Do you expect them to put their life on the line and make sure every shot their fire is aimed at an enemy, knowing enemies are waging an unconventional war against the US? No you don't.

Let's just make this simple, either you commit to the war and don't blame the military for doing their job, or don't fight the war at all. Iraq is a bullshit war, it's not the military's fault all these craps are happening, it is Bush's fault to get into it in the first place and Obama's fault for not getting out until now.

 

[PJABBER]

...he says as he waves his hands in denial of the documented facts I presented. Seriously man, why do you hate reality? :\

By the way, here is a little more reality for you to wallow in denial of:

See, Steiber describes reality. He may not like what he sees, few do, but his comments reflect what most with a shred of brains know - war is ugly, if you don't want ugly, don't go to war, and don't have others make war on you (good luck with that.)

You and Zorky make it more ugly than it is because you add willful ignorance and deliberate distortion into the mix. You attack the actors when, perhaps, the blame lies in the unfortunate circumstance.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, you are a part of the problem. The chili dog sucking hipsters so ready with dull remarks and baseless speculations. Failures at living life, you are seen by most as the dregs of society. You likely dress as a cartoon character and consider going to Starbucks the equivalent of living in a war zone. Turning on a tv the equivalent of being an 11B walking point.

Now, I don't know that you are, and, honestly, I don't really care. But that is the image I have of you and Zorky right now, because that is entirely how you come across in what you write and what you argue.

Do you know why those in active service and vets are a breed apart from you and why even those with less than perfect sense are respected by most, though certainly not by the pair of you? Because they live and die hard lives for your latte sucking sake and all you do is find fault that they have the scars and imperfections of humanity cast in bolder relief.

 

[xj0hnx]

That's my best guess too, but it could also be something other than a rifle.

Except ...it isn't, it's an AK.

Looks more like a tripod bag to me.

What it looks like to you, and what it looks like to someone that has been there and seen them in action are two completely different things. Besides that, it looks nothing like a tripod in a bag you can clearly see the profile of the RPG. The idea that it was even a tripod is ridiculous since embedded reporters rarely, if ever, carry them, I saw many while I was there, not a ONE of them carried a tripod. Where exactly are you going to setup a tripod in a warzone?

"Sorry guys, can you do the bombing run again, I didn't have the tripod setup."

"CUT!!! Army guys, can you go back around the block and come back through one more time? The tripod wasn't level, just one more time, come back around the corner and try coming in a little lower, maybe squat, and you come over him ...yea, yea like that, Saeed, can we get some more insurgents over here, let's beef this shot up."

 

[Sclamoz]

You suggested watching the full video, even though it doesn't show anything to contradict the edit but was rather only making an honest point. On the other hand, this is bias:


As I said, our military's credibility on this is squat.

That was the military's response the next day after the attack. I'm assuming they hadn't even started an investigation let alone completed one. After they determined some of the people were civilians they apologized to the families and paid them compensation.

Oh and from your own article:

"When we first went through, we saw the little girl," said Lt. Josh Hunsucker, one of the first soldiers to arrive. "The little boy, he was slumped down. We all thought he was dead. But then we saw him move."

An officer who saw a medical report about the children said they were injured by shrapnel from the Apache strafing. The girl was wounded in the stomach and the boy in the lower chest. Both were said to be in stable condition.

People walk around with things which can be mistaken for such weapons from those gun cams, as what is obviously a camera was. Besides, denying Iraqis the right to bear arms is absurd particular considering the crime rates since we dissolved so much of their government. Even doctors carry AKs for self-defense purposes there; are you fine with slaughtering them in the streets too?

You should check the date of that article. That was before the insurgency began and no where does it say doctors walk around with RPGs and Aks on the streets, just looters. Iraq 2003 and 2007 were different situations. You would know that if you paid attention.

...he says as he waves his hands in denial of the documented facts I presented. Seriously man, why do you hate reality?

By the way, here is a little more reality for you to wallow in denial of:

Yes, this is what happens in war, especially in urban areas. Events like these were common. They always have been and always will be.They followed the ROE. Thank you for backing me up!

Seriously, we've been at war for over 9 years now, and fought countless wars before this. Its amazing that people are just figuring out that civilians are going to get killed in a war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

 

[PJABBER]

"Sorry guys, can you do the bombing run again, I didn't have the tripod setup."

"CUT!!! Army guys, can you go back around the block and come back through one more time? The tripod wasn't level, just one more time, come back around the corner and try coming in a little lower, maybe squat, and you come over him ...yea, yea like that, Saeed, can we get some more insurgents over here, let's beef this shot up."

LOL! Remember, these guys were supposedly working at some point for REUTERS, always good for a faked atrocity or two and just the slightest bit of exaggeration for effect and "balance." That is, when they got out their Green Zone hotels. Why not stage a fake firefight if the lighting is just right?

I will say that from those I know, most of the reporters that were embedded are standup guys. I wouldn't say nearly so much for those that weren't.

 

[xj0hnx]

LOL! Remember, these guys were supposedly working at some point for REUTERS, always good for a faked atrocity or two and just the slightest bit of exaggeration for effect and "balance." That is, when they got out their Green Zone hotels. Why not stage a fake firefight if the lighting is just right?

I will say that from those I know, most of the reporters that were embedded are standup guys. I wouldn't say nearly so much for those that weren't.

Yea, we had a couple embeds, both were awesome guys, absolutely fearless, and funny as hell. Funny, neither had a tripod, or call to use one.

 

[L00PY]

But let me ask all you people sitting in the comfort of your couch in disgust how do you expect your soldiers to fight wars for you? Do you expect armies to train them to value enemies life more than theirs? Do you expect them to put their life on the line and make sure every shot their fire is aimed at an enemy, knowing enemies are waging an unconventional war against the US? No you don't.

I sit in the comfort of my couch in disgust of how some people expect my soldiers to fight wars for me. An unconventional war means our standards ought to be higher, not lower. Just because the enemy doesn't follow the Geneva Conventions doesn't mean we start ignoring them. Just because the enemy blithely kills civilians doesn't mean we no longer have to worry about civilian casualties. Just because the enemy uses suicide bombers doesn't mean we use suicide bombers.

If we want to have the finest military and fighting forces in the world, we have to expect our soldiers to act like it. All the time.

 

[xj0hnx]

I sit in the comfort of my couch in disgust of how some people expect my soldiers to fight wars for me. An unconventional war means our standards ought to be higher, not lower. Just because the enemy doesn't follow the Geneva Conventions doesn't mean we start ignoring them. Just because the enemy blithely kills civilians doesn't mean we no longer have to worry about civilian casualties. Just because the enemy uses suicide bombers doesn't mean we use suicide bombers.

If we want to have the finest military and fighting forces in the world, we have to expect our soldiers to act like it. All the time.

You have no concept of asymmetric warfare. This would have been over years ago if we had not tied our soldier hands, instead we imposed ultra high standards of protecting the innocent, and limiting collateral damage. Our respect for civilian lives is unequaled. Yet people take their 20/20 hindsight, and dissect for months action that took second and arbitrarily, and without any back ground make assumptions, and allegations, that is disgusting.

 

[Modelworks]

No.

Men at war need to exercise better judgement than kill everything that moves.

It is unacceptable to kill people that way.

-John

Sorry that is war, it isn't pleasant , and you don't have time to stop and ask people what their intents are. They had a device that could have destroyed the helicopter shooting the video.

The only part of the video I have problems with is the attitude of the gun crew in the helicopter. That soldier needs to be reprimanded.

 

[nick1985]

What, the rightwingers blindly defending murder of innocents? How typical.

For a supposed group of insurgents, they sure seemed to be standing around awfully casual like, and also didn't have any weapons.

lol ur dumb

 

[kylebisme]

After they determined some of the people were civilians they apologized to the families and paid them compensation.

What source do you base this claim on?

As for the doctors carrying rifles for self defense, I see no reason to believe that has changed. Besides, I also recall us backing militas to keep the peace in Baghdad around the time of the slaughter, but apparently you see them as fair game along with doctors or anyone else who might be caring anything which can be mistaken for a weapon from a gun site a mile away?

 

[Number1]

What source do you base this claim on?

As for the doctors carrying rifles for self defense, I see no reason to believe that has changed. Besides, I also recall us backing militas to keep the peace in Baghdad around the time of the slaughter, but apparently you see them as fair game along with doctors or anyone else who might be caring anything which can be mistaken for a weapon from a gun site a mile away?

You like to present your argument in a vacuum with no consideration for the context just like in your 911 thread.
There is no arguing with you.

The helicopter pilot fire at armed people walking toward an American unit under fire.
It's that simple but YOU will never see it.

 

[TheNoblePlatypus]

Discounting the conservative chest thumping, I watched the full video and it sure as hell looked like they had weapons to me. These guys are average people with a fairly gruesome job, and it's hard to even call what they did a mistake.


What's really disturbing are the wingnuts that cheer on any form of violence from the safety of their PC at home. It really shows how disconnected and how much of a lost cause they really are. Killing is a necessary component of holding that area of the world, sometimes though it is murder.

 

[Zorkorist]

It was murder this time, too.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

You like to present your argument in a vacuum with no consideration for the context just like in your 911 thread.
There is no arguing with you.

The helicopter pilot fire at armed people walking toward an American unit under fire.
It's that simple but YOU will never see it.

He fired at a loose knit group of people, walking in the same general direction.

It's like you can't even walk, in Iraq, today.

Which is scary.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Sorry that is war, it isn't pleasant , and you don't have time to stop and ask people what their intents are. They had a device that could have destroyed the helicopter shooting the video.

The only part of the video I have problems with is the attitude of the gun crew in the helicopter. That soldier needs to be reprimanded.

They had plenty of time to determine the threat.

As far as I know these videos we see are from hidden heli-copters. It's pretty obvious the people in this video didn't realize a gunboat was hovering over-head.

Also, it took the nearest ground troops like 10 minutes to arrive on the murder position.

So... who WERE they "shooting at?"

-John