NFL Week 6 thread

[IndyColtsFan]

LOL...Cassel had Moss, Welker and Faulk.

And in any given year, Peyton had a combination of some of these guys: Wayne, Harrison, Clark, Stokely, Garcon, Collie, Addai, and James.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

even colts defense is built around him. that is truly rare.

It is only "built around him" in the sense that it is designed to be an all out, "punish the opposing QB" defense and to do that, the Colts need a big lead. Is that what you mean?

 

[BeauJangles]

Seriously?
1. Stats

YPA (career):

Manning 7.67
Brees 6.83
Brady 7.30
Rivers 7.94

TD / INT (career):
Manning 2.07
Brees 1.50
Brady 2.28
Rivers 2.36

If Rivers continued at this pace, he would dethrone Brady as the QB with the highest TD / INT ratio ever. I only say that because he'd had significantly fewer seasons.

The team with the highest YPA wins games about 85% of the time.

MVPs

MVPs / super bowl MVPs / pro bowls:

Manning 4 / 1 / 10
Brees 0 / 1 / 4
Brady 1 / 2 / 5
Rivers 0 / 0 / 2

Championships / Appearances:
Manning 1 / 2
Brees 1 / 1
Brady 3 / 4
Rivers 0 / 0

3. Records

Manning: Fastest to 1,000 / 2,000 / 3,000 / 4,000 completions. Fastest to 50,000 yards.
Brees: --
Brady: Fastest to 100 wins
Rivers: --

4. Calls his own plays

He might be able to tie his shoes in the best knot ever, but that shouldn't be a separate bullet point. If calling his own plays helps him win games, then that is reflected in his record and his accomplishments. If John Elway had called his own plays would that have made a better quarterback?

5. He is more important to the Colts than any other player is to his team (though Brees is close here)

He is also more important to the city of Indianapolis than Drew Brees is. This is a completely subjective judgement on your part. Every good quarterback is critical to his teams' success.

6. Is able to overcome a terrible defense year in, year out

Defenses rated via football outsiders:

       	  09    08    07    06    05    04    03    02    01    00    99    98
Manning   15    10    02     25    05    19    13    16    29    23    27    28
Brees     14    26    29     22    25    27    30    25    12     -     -     -
Brady     16    21    12     07    27    06    02    14    13     -     -     -
Rivers    23    20    06     17    16    12     -     -     -     -     -     -

Career Averages :
Manning 17.66
Brees 23.33
Brady 13.11
Rivers 15.66





Those are based on the criteria you wanted to put forward. Yes, Manning leads the world in a lot of statistical categories, but I don't think that, on the whole, he is "far and away" the best quarterback in the league right now, especially if you think the closest guy is Drew Brees.

 

[spidey07]

Colts D is funny. Yes they are normally bad against the run and generally in the lower 10% of the league overall. But they can have games where the D really shines and manages to win the game for the colts when the offense sputters.

Colts biggest problems now are injuries. Way too many good players out on defense and offense. Garcon finally started showing those sticky hands we're used to seeing. Blair White is turning out to be an excellent rookie receiver so there's not much trouble with offense other than some line problems and depth at RB.

I doubt any team has the depth and quality at the WR receiver position as the colts.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

LOL...Cassel had Moss, Welker and Faulk. Those three transformed him into a good QB. Also, like it or not, the Pats are one of the better coached teams. That said, I do think Peyton means more to the Colts than Brady does to the Pats. I really think Peyton sold his soul to the devil to play great football.

they did the same thing when bledsoe went down and brady came in: dumb down the offense and stick to only the highest completion percentage plays. that being said, i don't have a problem with matt cassel. i agree tho, it will be harder for the colts to get by without peyton than it was for the pats without brady.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

He might be able to tie his shoes in the best knot ever, but that shouldn't be a separate bullet point. If calling his own plays helps him win games, then that is reflected in his record and his accomplishments. If John Elway had called his own plays would that have made a better quarterback?

Yes, it should, as it shows an incredible understanding of the game. Manning is like an offensive coordinator on the field.

This is a completely subjective judgement on your part. Every good quarterback is critical to his teams' success.

Fortunately for me, the MVP voters strongly consider this when voting.

Those are based on the criteria you wanted to put forward. Yes, Manning leads the world in a lot of statistical categories, but I don't think that, on the whole, he is "far and away" the best quarterback in the league right now, especially if you think the closest guy is Drew Brees.

Who would be second? Brees > Brady. You might throw Rivers in that argument, but I am not convinced yet. Plus I think he is a punk.

In the end, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

It is only "built around him" in the sense that it is designed to be an all out, "punish the opposing QB" defense and to do that, the Colts need a big lead. Is that what you mean?

yup. colts have great pass rushers but are only affective when other teams becomes 1 dimensional.

 

[BeauJangles]

That's a good comparison.

The Pats lost Brady for a season and went 11-5 without him. I guarantee you that if Peyton went down, the Colts would not win a game with Curtis Painter at the helm. Even if you ditch Painter and replace him with Cassel, the Colts would not win 11 games or even close.

Again this argument is a little silly because we won't have any idea how good Castle was on his own until he has a few more years under his belt. It's akin to making the argument that the 2001 Patriots would have been better off with Drew Bledsoe, after all they won 11 games with their backup QB.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Again this argument is a little silly because we won't have any idea how good Castle was on his own until he has a few more years under his belt. It's akin to making the argument that the 2001 Patriots would have been better off with Drew Bledsoe, after all they won 11 games with their backup QB.

Or, it could have been the system, and not the QB, that results in the Pats' success. It is tough to tell for sure. If you say it is the system, you get rabid Pats fans screaming at you. I do tend to think it is more the system than the QB.

 

[Gibson486]

Again this argument is a little silly because we won't have any idea how good Castle was on his own until he has a few more years under his belt. It's akin to making the argument that the 2001 Patriots would have been better off with Drew Bledsoe, after all they won 11 games with their backup QB.

do not bother arguing with him. To him, it peyton or nothing.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

do not bother arguing with him. To him, it peyton or nothing.

:awe:

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

it's not that rare. The Pats D used to be built around Brady. Look how that turned out. All the holes were exposed when he went down. The Colts are going through what the Pats D went through in previous years.

NE defense was always a good stand alone D. They are showing holes because they let go of quality guys like samuel, ty law, and seymour in their primes. they also lost bruschi and rodney harrison to retirement. before brady's 50 td season, it WAS the defense that was carrying that team. at least they were able to load up on draft picks by losing those key guys.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

NE defense was always a good stand alone D. They are showing holes because they let go of quality guys like samuel, ty law, and seymour in their primes. they also lost bruschi and rodney harrison to retirement. before brady's 50 td season, it WAS the defense that was carrying that team. at least they were able to load up on draft picks by losing those key guys.

do not bother arguing with him. To him, it is Brady or nothing.

 

[BeauJangles]

Yes, it should, as it shows an incredible understanding of the game. Manning is like an offensive coordinator on the field.

"Incredible understanding of the game" is demonstrable in his stats, not in the fact he calls his own plays. Is a Porsche fast because it's a Porsche or because it's a well-engineered sports car?

This argument is so superfluous it hurts. If it makes him a football genius, then that should be reflected in his numbers. You could argue that it is reflected in the numbers, but you refuse for reasons unknown.

Fortunately for me, the MVP voters strongly consider this when voting.

Actually, like in baseball they tend to focus on the flash numbers, but that's another story for another time.

Peyton may or may not be more important than another quarterback, but that is an extremely difficult thing to determine, but one that you are happy to simply assume.

Who would be second? Brees > Brady. You might throw Rivers in that argument, but I am not convinced yet. Plus I think he is a punk.

I'm not trying to sort out the elite QBs, you are. You still can't tell me what exactly constitutes "best." IF we're talking historically and you want me to make an argument that Tom Brady belongs right next to Manning, it isn't that difficult.

1. Brady has won 3 super bowls, been the MVP of two of them.
2. He is the fastest QB in the history of the game to 100 wins by a large margin.
3. His YPA is top-40 all time.
4. He is the least intercepted QB in history.
5. He put up the greatest offensive season in the history of the game.


If you want me to argue that Manning is better:

1. He will eventually own nearly every statistical category in football. (completions, TDs, yards are all within range).
2. He has guided his team to 2 Super Bowl berths.
3. His YPA is top-20 all time
4. [edit] Manning's TD-INT is 1.99, good for #4 on the all-time list.
5. He consistently is one of top offensive quarterbacks in the game.

Over the past four seasons, Brees has been an elite QB. His numbers, however, are not as good as Brady or Manning's (or Rivers') in the categories that really count: YPA, TD-INT. Those are the numbers that win games. He also hasn't been as good for nearly as long (a knock against Rivers, of course).

In the end, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I never set out to prove you wrong, which you seem to have think I've done. I only wanted to interject some numbers into an argument that was sorely lacking them.

There is a very strong case to be made that Manning is the best QB to ever step onto a football field, but you are making just about the worst argument possible. I think you're also letting your blinders get the best of you. We're in an age of awesome quarterbacks and there are several guys that belong either next to, or right below Manning. That isn't a knock on him, it's a testament to how good QBs are right now.

 

[BeauJangles]

do not bother arguing with him. To him, it is Brady or nothing.

Not at all. Personally, I could care less about who winds up rated the best because it is irrelevant and swings drastically whether you fall into the Montana or the Marino camp. What I was trying to point out is that these arguments you're making aren't exactly cut and dry.



edit: wrong quote.

 

[Gibson486]

Not at all. Personally, I could care less about who winds up rated the best because it is irrelevant and swings drastically whether you fall into the Montana or the Marino camp.

What I was trying to point out is that these arguments you're making aren't exactly cut and dry.

That's the thing, he is not going to to stop until everyone just blindly bows down to Manning, so I am just letting you know to not bother.

 

[BeauJangles]

We didn't even include Big Ben, an oversight on my part, but he is certainly one of the top 8 QBs in football.

 

[hclarkjr]

yeah, i think the Bears main problem is the O-line. They leave major holes, but I've seen them tighten up. Then again...the other major problem is if we see more of Collins or not...sigh.

I have to lol at the Redskins comment. It's sad, b/c I want them to do well, but I don't really see them making it too far. They certainly look impressive, when you qualify that against the previous handful of seasons.

After last nights game, I get the feeling that while they have the skills, and the people to win these games...there's a certain lack of chemistry, strategy...communication. They are clearly missing something. Seriously--6.5 minutes to prance up the field when you're down 2 scores with 8 minutes left? wtf is that? I mean, I was excited that Indianapolis did EVERY THING THEY COULD to hand them that game on the next 3/out series of incomplete passes, no loss of time or timeouts. I mean...wtf Peyton? that was odd.

The fact that they can't exploit that kind of stupidity is really frustrating, but not surprising. Though..I was more shocked to see that kind of play calling from the great Peyton, tbh.

I'm sure Blango was shitting a brick during those 40 seconds.

give shanahan a chance, do not forget this is his first year and needs to fill in some pieces yet. they are competitive despite having new coaching staff and going from 4-3 to 3-4 defnese. last nights game is example of them not being ready defense wise for a good offense. give it one more draft and i bet the skins will be better.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Not at all. Personally, I could care less about who winds up rated the best because it is irrelevant and swings drastically whether you fall into the Montana or the Marino camp. What I was trying to point out is that these arguments you're making aren't exactly cut and dry.

edit: wrong quote.

You make good arguments as well and you're right in the sense that it is, to a degree, subjective. The only true way to compare them would be if they could all play on the exact same team, with the exact same coaches and supporting cast, to see what would happen.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Tacks vs. Jags tonight ought to be a good game. I think the Titans will win, but I'd like to see the Jags pull it off. The Colts need all the help they can get and the Titans are a bigger threat, IMO.

 

[zinfamous]

You might throw Rivers in that argument, but I am not convinced yet. Plus I think he is a punk.

 

[zinfamous]

give shanahan a chance, do not forget this is his first year and needs to fill in some pieces yet. they are competitive despite having new coaching staff and going from 4-3 to 3-4 defnese. last nights game is example of them not being ready defense wise for a good offense. give it one more draft and i bet the skins will be better.

Oh, I agree. i jsut don't think people should be jumping on any bandwagons right now.

i am actually very, very excited about Shanahan + Mcnabb. I danced a few jigs the day they dropped the McNabb news, and I really do like what I've seen.

At the same time, I still rue the day that I heard "Turner hired in San Diego." D: (yes, due to flashbacks)

 

[zinfamous]

Tacks vs. Jags tonight ought to be a good game. I think the Titans will win, but I'd like to see the Jags pull it off. The Colts need all the help they can get and the Titans are a bigger threat, IMO.

again, that's not something that could happen in a theoretical vacuum, as any staff on a truly good team would be adapting that team to utilize it's players strengths. Any good team where you switch around the QB would likely look just like their current teams.

I think this is why Manning, Brady, Brees, and even Big Ben, then Rivers are so superlative. Flashy or no, these QBs are perfect for these systems, for the most part. Big emphasis on the first 4, of course...and I "greatly dislike" Brady.

 

[SP33Demon]

Amazing that Indy only scored 27 on the sieve-that-is-the-Skins-secondary. What a bunch of scrubs.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Or, it could have been the system, and not the QB, that results in the Pats' success. It is tough to tell for sure. If you say it is the system, you get rabid Pats fans screaming at you. I do tend to think it is more the system than the QB.

It's the system. Don't forget that Bledsoe came in and won an important playoff game that season.

I'm addressing Beaujangles too, forgot that there are no multiple quotes.