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New Zen microarchitecture details

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Vortex6700

Member
Apr 12, 2015
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"Killing peoples hypes" as it was mentioned by another. Anyone not believing or questions the hype is a hater.
I don't disagree, but you do spend a noticeable portion of your life attacking these people when the same could be done vice-versa
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,340
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Kind of sad how a thread titled "New Zen microarchitecture details" has devolved into this.

To try to right this thread, when is the next time, either at a forum or elsewhere, AMD is likely to update any details on the Zen development?
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Dang, I feel bad for RussianSensation. Guy makes a good purchase, explains his purchase, and he gets ripped on by fans of a certain company.

Sad.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Lynched due to a 6700K purchase instead of Zen :(
IMO, this is going to be Sandy Bridge vs 'Dozer all over again. However I predict that this time, Zen will have good IPC but it will clock significantly worse than Skylake/Kabylake/etc.

Zen is clearly targeted at the server market where high core counts + more modest frequencies are the norm; think Broadwell-EP.

I think those of you expecting Zen to be able to hit Haswell+ IPC and the crazy clocks that Haswell can hit will be disappointed. We'll see, though. Looking forward to the flames from the usual suspects of course.
 

Abwx

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2011
9,117
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IMO, this is going to be Sandy Bridge vs 'Dozer all over again. However I predict that this time, Zen will have good IPC but it will clock significantly worse than Skylake/Kabylake/etc.

Zen is clearly targeted at the server market where high core counts + more modest frequencies are the norm; think Broadwell-EP.

I think those of you expecting Zen to be able to hit Haswell+ IPC and the crazy clocks that Haswell can hit will be disappointed. We'll see, though. Looking forward to the flames from the usual suspects of course.
If you are right then it means that GF s 14nm can use 1V at most, and still, this would imply at least 3.5Ghz if the process is as "bad" as their own 28nm..

Now try to sell the idea that such lowish max voltage as 0.9V (still 3GHz...) is realistic, not sure that you ll find a ton of followers..
 

el etro

Golden Member
Jul 21, 2013
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With all this technical info leaks by Fottemberg, Thevenin and now by The Stlit too, it looks like that Zen will really match or come even close to Intel on IPC, have far better IC design(power/area/clocks/voltage/OC improvement) than their predecessors and will probably clock as high or higher than Intel.

About the IPC improvements i think is pretty much possible to catch Intel on all kinds of loads except heavy AVX2. AMD 40% improvement may simply refer to best case scenario XV(Integer loads in the case) versus Zen, so as Looncraz tests shows is pretty possible to catch Intel at least on these fronts. Remember CON cores have cut-down performance in many FP tests, so is normal that Bulldozer have pretty poor IPC compared to Intels in these kinds of loads.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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With all this technical info leaks by Fottemberg, Thevenin and now by The Stlit too, it looks like that Zen will really match or come even close to Intel on IPC, have far better IC design(power/area/clocks/voltage/OC improvement) than their predecessors and will probably clock as high or higher than Intel.
In other words, you really believe that Zen will be in every way equal-to or better-than Intel's best CPUs?

Let this post stand as proof that expectations for Zen are now completely and utterly out of hand.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,054
4,711
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Dang, I feel bad for RussianSensation. Guy makes a good purchase, explains his purchase, and he gets ripped on by fans of a certain company.
This is not about mainstream Skylake not being hands down the best purchase for 2016, and you know it. RS is one of the best forumites when it comes to giving purchasing advice (perf/dollar spent), and I always enjoy reading his posts. He's also less bitter about things, which sadly I cannot say about other good posters in the CPU forum.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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In other words, you really believe that Zen will be in every way equal-to or better-than Intel's best CPUs?

Let this post stand as proof that expectations for Zen are now completely and utterly out of hand.
I do not disagree with you, but tell me why they are out of hand?
 
Mar 10, 2006
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I do not disagree with you, but tell me why they are out of hand?
Intel has dedicated massive, highly skilled teams to building upon its very high IPC/high frequency micro-architecture for about a decade since the launch of Conroe. Each new architecture has brought steady improvements in performance-per-clock while clocks have remained largely flat and performance/watt has moved up.

This is no small feat, no matter how much people want to belittle the "modest" perf/clock gains Intel delivers with each new generation.

Here we have AMD, which has substantially fewer resources than Intel and has suffered significant brain-drain over the last decade. They are doing a brand-new "from scratch" architecture, with far fewer engineers and, frankly, I doubt that the "best of the best" have stuck around as AMD has imploded (just look at LinkedIn and you will see what I'm talking about). They've moved to the likes of Apple, Qualcomm, and even Intel.

This new architecture is expected to bring significant performance-per-clock enhancements (+40% over XV if AMD is to be believed) and will be built on Samsung's mobile-centric 14LPP manufacturing process.

Does it really make sense that AMD will be able to match/BEAT Intel across the board as some are claiming in light of the conditions outlined? I think something will be "traded off" here. And I think the trade-off will be clock speed, assuming that the IPC gains are true.

For the server market (which is what Zen is targeting), this isn't a bad trade-off, the Xeon chips from Intel don't exactly come at super high clock speeds either. But for enthusiast desktops, this trade off may make the Zen HEDT chips less desirable than their Intel counterparts.
 

Adored

Senior member
Mar 24, 2016
256
1
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The obvious trade-off is in die area. It really won't be difficult for AMD to beat Intel 6 cores to 4 cores especially given that the quad i7's and i5's are nearly 40% IGP.
 

CentroX

Senior member
Apr 3, 2016
344
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Intel has dedicated massive, highly skilled teams to building upon its very high IPC/high frequency micro-architecture for about a decade since the launch of Conroe. Each new architecture has brought steady improvements in performance-per-clock while clocks have remained largely flat and performance/watt has moved up.

This is no small feat, no matter how much people want to belittle the "modest" perf/clock gains Intel delivers with each new generation.

Here we have AMD, which has substantially fewer resources than Intel and has suffered significant brain-drain over the last decade. They are doing a brand-new "from scratch" architecture, with far fewer engineers and, frankly, I doubt that the "best of the best" have stuck around as AMD has imploded (just look at LinkedIn and you will see what I'm talking about). They've moved to the likes of Apple, Qualcomm, and even Intel.

This new architecture is expected to bring significant performance-per-clock enhancements (+40% over XV if AMD is to be believed) and will be built on Samsung's mobile-centric 14LPP manufacturing process.

Does it really make sense that AMD will be able to match/BEAT Intel across the board as some are claiming in light of the conditions outlined? I think something will be "traded off" here. And I think the trade-off will be clock speed, assuming that the IPC gains are true.

For the server market (which is what Zen is targeting), this isn't a bad trade-off, the Xeon chips from Intel don't exactly come at super high clock speeds either. But for enthusiast desktops, this trade off may make the Zen HEDT chips less desirable than their Intel counterparts.
you forget that AMD has matched Intel before. Even if it is a long time ago, they are clearly capable of doing it again.
 

swilli89

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,528
1,085
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Intel has dedicated massive, highly skilled teams to building upon its very high IPC/high frequency micro-architecture for about a decade since the launch of Conroe. Each new architecture has brought steady improvements in performance-per-clock while clocks have remained largely flat and performance/watt has moved up.

This is no small feat, no matter how much people want to belittle the "modest" perf/clock gains Intel delivers with each new generation.

Here we have AMD, which has substantially fewer resources than Intel and has suffered significant brain-drain over the last decade. They are doing a brand-new "from scratch" architecture, with far fewer engineers and, frankly, I doubt that the "best of the best" have stuck around as AMD has imploded (just look at LinkedIn and you will see what I'm talking about). They've moved to the likes of Apple, Qualcomm, and even Intel.

This new architecture is expected to bring significant performance-per-clock enhancements (+40% over XV if AMD is to be believed) and will be built on Samsung's mobile-centric 14LPP manufacturing process.

Does it really make sense that AMD will be able to match/BEAT Intel across the board as some are claiming in light of the conditions outlined? I think something will be "traded off" here. And I think the trade-off will be clock speed, assuming that the IPC gains are true.

For the server market (which is what Zen is targeting), this isn't a bad trade-off, the Xeon chips from Intel don't exactly come at super high clock speeds either. But for enthusiast desktops, this trade off may make the Zen HEDT chips less desirable than their Intel counterparts.
What does your post have to do with "New Zen microarchitectire details"? This thread isn't about managing people's "hype". It's not yours or autistic cat dudes job to police these forums and ensure people align with your level of expectation, whatever that may be.

Does it really bother you thay some fellow computer nerds are excited about the first totally new architecture from an underdog company in years?


insulting other members is not allowed
Markfw900
 
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Mar 10, 2006
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you forget that AMD has matched Intel before. Even if it is a long time ago, they are clearly capable of doing it again.
Yeah, that's a great argument for sure. 10 years ago (do you have any idea how long 10 years is in tech?) Intel was caught flat-footed and the stars aligned for AMD.

Since then, Intel's ability to invest and, indeed, its investments have only grown larger and it has continued to put significant distance between itself and AMD. AMD, meanwhile, has laid off a ton of people, suffered significant brain drain, and has to basically "start from scratch" as it were.

If you think that the people at Intel are completely oblivious to the statements that AMD has been making over the last couple of years about Zen and isn't making sure that it will be more than ready to respond when the time comes, then I just don't know what to tell you.

In six-to-eight months we will see Zen in the market, won't be too long now. Will be interesting to see how expectations evolve over that time. Bet people will be looking for a 5GHz, Skylake-IPC killer CPU core by then. Oh, and more cores for $199, too, because AMD is 100% pro-consumer!
 

Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
554
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citavia.blog.de
OK, we've seen lots of opinions and speculations and a lot of "proving" and counter arguments. So far, so good. That's what speculation is all about.

But it repeatedly gets out of hand, when those speculative points are being discussed based either on no additional facts, or simple generalizations and assumptions, as if these points were proven facts. Of course there are probabilities. Some might be high, others low. But that doesn't kill a speculative point and it's never enough to "win" an argument about some less than 100% probable outcome.
 

naukkis

Senior member
Jun 5, 2002
374
218
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IMO, this is going to be Sandy Bridge vs 'Dozer all over again. However I predict that this time, Zen will have good IPC but it will clock significantly worse than Skylake/Kabylake/etc.
IPC is other thing but as Zen still probably has its roots on 'dozer it should clock high unlike Intel's offerings which are purely perf/watt and mobile oriented. Excavator clocked well over 4GHz with 28nm GF process and as 14lpp have good deal faster transistors you should except quite a bit higher clock speeds, even with high-ipc oriented design.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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What does your post have to do with "New Zen microarchitectire details"? This thread isn't about managing people's "hype". It's not yours or autistic cat dudes job to police these forums and ensure people align with your level of expectation, whatever that may be.

Does it really bother you thay some fellow computer nerds are excited about the first totally new architecture from an underdog company in years?
I am putting out my expectations for key performance characteristics of Zen. Why does the fact that I'm not hyping Zen to the moon bother you so much?

I get that some "computer nerds" want to see AMD do really well again, but I think it's important to manage expectations based on reality, not based on fantasy and what one "hopes" or "wishes" will happen.

There were people around these parts and basically across the entire internet who were pumping Bulldozer as a Sandy Bridge killer, and there were a few lone voices of reason who cautioned that maybe it wouldn't be the big deal that some thought. Those people were bullied then and they are being bullied now on the eve of Zen's launch.

Fortunately, I have a pretty thick skin and will not be bullied into silence.
 

CentroX

Senior member
Apr 3, 2016
344
149
116
Yeah, that's a great argument for sure. 10 years ago (do you have any idea how long 10 years is in tech?) Intel was caught flat-footed and the stars aligned for AMD.

Since then, Intel's ability to invest and, indeed, its investments have only grown larger and it has continued to put significant distance between itself and AMD. AMD, meanwhile, has laid off a ton of people, suffered significant brain drain, and has to basically "start from scratch" as it were.

If you think that the people at Intel are completely oblivious to the statements that AMD has been making over the last couple of years about Zen and isn't making sure that it will be more than ready to respond when the time comes, then I just don't know what to tell you.

In six-to-eight months we will see Zen in the market, won't be too long now. Will be interesting to see how expectations evolve over that time. Bet people will be looking for a 5GHz, Skylake-IPC killer CPU core by then. Oh, and more cores for $199, too, because AMD is 100% pro-consumer!
Mark Papermaster said 1 month ago that they're catching up with Intel. AMD cant afford another bulldozer fiasco, they're probably aware of that.

I am ready to give AMD the benefit of the doubt with Zen.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,976
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Yeah, that's a great argument for sure. 10 years ago (do you have any idea how long 10 years is in tech?) Intel was caught flat-footed and the stars aligned for AMD.
It's a little harder when you do not have a complete MPU design team from DEC, plus DEC IP available for acquisition like they had 17 years ago.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Mark Papermaster said 1 month ago that they're catching up with Intel. AMD cant afford another bulldozer fiasco, they're probably aware of that.

I am ready to give AMD the benefit of the doubt with Zen.
What else is Papermaster going to say? Do you think that when AMD defined Bulldozer they were expecting a "Bulldozer fiasco"? Internally, from what I am told, they were expecting to "bulldoze" Intel -- no joke.

Amazing how that worked out.

Also, do you believe that Intel is sitting there twiddling its thumbs going, "gee, AMD is doing a new architecture...let's just sit here and wait for them to rip away market share!"

Come on.
 

el etro

Golden Member
Jul 21, 2013
1,581
14
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In other words, you really believe that Zen will be in every way equal-to or better-than Intel's best CPUs?

Let this post stand as proof that expectations for Zen are now completely and utterly out of hand.
Leaks are of sources of very good quality. If Fottemberg assumptions about Zen clockspeeds get concrete, Zen will be a real Intel Killer.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,027
4,772
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You mean to go along with all the posts breaking down why it will be 8 cores, haswell IPC, 95 watts and 300.00? Seems like wild speculation about how great it will be is OK, but not the opposite.
it's like negative attack ads during an election. we all hate them, even when they're true.

I am putting out my expectations for key performance characteristics of Zen. Why does the fact that I'm not hyping Zen to the moon bother you so much?

I get that some "computer nerds" want to see AMD do really well again, but I think it's important to manage expectations based on reality, not based on fantasy and what one "hopes" or "wishes" will happen.

There were people around these parts and basically across the entire internet who were pumping Bulldozer as a Sandy Bridge killer, and there were a few lone voices of reason who cautioned that maybe it wouldn't be the big deal that some thought. Those people were bullied then and they are being bullied now on the eve of Zen's launch.

Fortunately, I have a pretty thick skin and will not be bullied into silence.
there's a lot of jerks around here, and it's not limited to one side or another.

but this is evidently what you all want because no one seems to want to discuss zen architectural details. clearly what you all want is yet another rehashing of the same old arguments you've had in thread after thread, where no one's mind is changed and many end up showing their @$$.
 

CentroX

Senior member
Apr 3, 2016
344
149
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What else is Papermaster going to say? Do you think that when AMD defined Bulldozer they were expecting a "Bulldozer fiasco"? Internally, from what I am told, they were expecting to "bulldoze" Intel -- no joke.

Amazing how that worked out.

Also, do you believe that Intel is sitting there twiddling its thumbs going, "gee, AMD is doing a new architecture...let's just sit here and wait for them to rip away market share!"

Come on.
You make it sound like AMD is some small fry. These guys have been around since 1969 and introduced several revolutionary tech to the industri.

just top of my head:

-first to break 1ghz barrier with its Athlon cpu to consumers
-first to have a 64-bit extension with the X86 architecture
-first gpu with DirectX 9 hardware support
-first gpu to use GDDR5 memory
-first gpu to use HBM
 

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