New Zen microarchitecture details

Discussion in 'CPUs and Overclocking' started by Dresdenboy, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. Crumpet

    Crumpet Senior member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2017
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    538
    Cthulhu Lake?
     
    CHADBOGA and inf64 like this.
  2. tamz_msc

    tamz_msc Golden Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    From the CanardPC article, it seems AMD is having trouble reaching 4GHz base clocks on the 4C parts - which means that they are failed 8C parts (since there is only one die, which is as big as 200mm2, can someone confirm its size?). If so then AMD can't price them too low or else they'll lose money. AMD will have lesser room to maneuver in the sub-250$ range if that is the case, provided Ryzen is competitive enough with 4C Intel parts.
     
  3. CatMerc

    CatMerc Senior member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    651
    On the bright side for consumers, this will force AMD to price 4C/8T lower than most of us expected. While overall performance might be lower, with games targeting 8 threads (thanks to consoles), there are occasions where 4C/4T would do worse in minimum framerates than 4C/8T, even if total throughput is lower, due to various timing issues.

    I personally would take a 4C/8T at 3.5GHz over a 4C/4T at 4.5GHz.
     
  4. Lovec1990

    Lovec1990 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2017
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    10
    But if there are frequency issues with the chip you will not be able to overclock it.
     
    INTEL_SHILL likes this.
  5. inf64

    inf64 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Don't forget two important things:
    1) 8T Ryzen supposedly has max TDP of 65W
    2)8T Ryzen supposedly can clock to 4.2Ghz on solid cooling without any issues. Hopefully even at stock config XFR will take it to similar boost clocks but that remains to be seen.
     
    Drazick likes this.
  6. Atari2600

    Atari2600 Senior member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2016
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    426
    A flaw does not affect the ability of a part to hit high frequencies.

    They are two distinctly different phenomena and should have no link. I've read about possible architectural idiosyncrasies limiting clocks on a cut down chip due to the CCX layout - but am not paying a great deal of heed to them.
     
  7. Cartel

    Cartel Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    my old sig :rolleyes:
    ASUS A7N8X2.0-Deluxe 1008mod3-4283Sata AMD Athlon XP 3200+ Barton @2.20 GHz OCZ PC3200 EL Platinum Edition 2GB 2.5-3-2-9-1T@400DDR Dual Channel Enabled ATI Radeon X1650pro 512MB SoundBlaster Live! 5.1


    I'll probably wait for the Zen II
    The first phenom sucked till the II came out
     
    #4982 Cartel, Feb 6, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
    INTEL_SHILL likes this.
  8. bjt2

    bjt2 Senior member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    180
    Selling for a low price is better than throw away... You can compensate with higher SKU prices...
     
  9. bjt2

    bjt2 Senior member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2016
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    180
    My hypothesis is that the ES were purposely low clocked, because the ES are used only for testing. They does not need to have final clocks. Only final consumption (at last), and this can be simulated with proper overvolt. I don't think that from a 3.6GHz base 8c they can't produce a 4-4.2GHz base 4c...
     
    #4984 bjt2, Feb 6, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  10. KTE

    KTE Senior member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    130
    Precisely!

    Phenom...

    Targeted for QX6700, then Intel launched QX9650.

    Game Over.
     
  11. tamz_msc

    tamz_msc Golden Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    I'm just making a wild guess here, but it might be because of the way you choose the working cores out of the CCXs. If you are choosing two cores each from both the CCXs, then there is a possibility that the overall distance that a signal has to travel affects the propagation time, which in turn will affect what clock speeds are reachable.

    Of course, it could all be false and Ryzen clocks very well even with the 4C chips.
     
  12. Magic Hate Ball

    Magic Hate Ball Senior member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    249
    I would say because we haven't had real confirmation on this speculation.

    We've heard both ways... that 6c definitely exists, and that 6c is impossible due to the CCX layout.

    It's all speculation, as the only parts we've seen are the full 8c/16t demonstrated.

    EDIT: I see you were discussing the lower clocked cut-down chips. I have no answer from that, but my point stands regarding all of this potentially being FUD.
     
  13. Vesku

    Vesku Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,745
    Likes Received:
    26
    I've been expecting $450-600 top SKU ever since they showed those "vs 6900K" demos. Softening the blow of having somewhat pricey SKUs "it's half the price of 6900K but beats it for certain uses".
     
    Shamrock and Magic Hate Ball like this.
  14. CatMerc

    CatMerc Senior member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    651
    Actually the reliable sources that have been leaking Zen information for years have all agreed that 6C is possible.
    It's just the tech rumormill websites that spew whatever the other site farts in a circular fashion that claimed 6C is impossible.
     
  15. Atari2600

    Atari2600 Senior member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2016
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    426
    'cos the reasoning falls apart if AMD were to fuse off one CCX completely.
     
  16. raghu78

    raghu78 Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3,679
    Likes Received:
    852
    It would be nice if AMD get aggressive on 4C/8T pricing. I think a price of USD 180 would have a disruptive effect. It will make the 7350k and most of the non k core i5 irrelevant. AMD need to hit atleast 4 Ghz turbo for their 4C. They do not want to fall too behind in stock benchmarks even though most people who buy it are going to slap a good air or hybrid cooler and max out the clocks.
     
    inf64 likes this.
  17. Asterox

    Asterox Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    48
    Of course it is impossible,:D about as Trump=USA president was impossible six months ago.

    As usual the Internet is full of "very smart unemployed CPU designers". :cool:
     
  18. Insert_Nickname

    Insert_Nickname Platinum Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,952
    Likes Received:
    138
    $180-199 seems quite reasonable for a 65W 4GHz 4C/8T Ryzen. Properbly enough to explain the Intel "panic attack"...

    The legendary K7S5A. Those were the days. :)

    Of course. But Barton was a still a nice chip, especially coupled with one of those chipsets mentioned.
     
  19. LTC8K6

    LTC8K6 Lifer

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    25,572
    Likes Received:
    816
    I thought flawed chips were rare these days?
     
  20. Greyguy1948

    Greyguy1948 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    12
  21. KTE

    KTE Senior member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    130
    Yep. He expects Sandy Bridge level int performance and not much on fp.

    And the 40% referred to int_rate... A Throughput bench. No different than what I said they might have done, looking at historical data.

    "AMD has disclosed little useful performance data, but it provided guidance that Zen’s IPC is 40% better on SPECint_rate2006 than Excavator’s,"

    Sent from HTC 10
    (Opinions are own)
     
  22. inf64

    inf64 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    How can the referred number be from a rate benchmark when chief architect at Hot Chips stated that 40% IPC is single thread improvement and SMT comes on top of that?
    Looks like D. Kanter was lazy when he wrote the article. Not to mention that 40% figure is old and will be updated to something else at launch day :)
     
    Drazick likes this.
  23. CHADBOGA

    CHADBOGA Golden Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,651
    Likes Received:
    229
    The article was from August last year. o_O
     
    RiverRicer and inf64 like this.
  24. CHADBOGA

    CHADBOGA Golden Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,651
    Likes Received:
    229
    I sure as hell wouldn't sacrifice 28.5% more clockspeed for 4 more HT threads when I already have 4 threads from full cores.
     
  25. Sven_eng

    Sven_eng Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    57
    He also expects 3.2GHz which is at least 12.5% lower than what we know is true and Zen's IPC has been upgraded to 55%, which is 15% more than expected. You can do the maths on that. :)