New School Rule: Skip Homework Still Get Grade

[oiprocs]

Let them eat cake, so to speak.

Those that choose to attend college will see what real academic work is like, and they will either succeed or fail. Either way, universities will collect tuition checks for a long time coming.

Student != profit (short term)

 

[PrinceofWands]

While I don't agree with this system, there does need to be a major reform in play. If they instituted a test out policy it would go a long way for me. Anyone who can get above an 80% on well designed tests simply has no reason to do or hand in homework. For those that can't get that grade without practice, the homework could make up for it.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I can't believe all the people in this thread who say homework is useless. What is wrong with you people!? How bout a little self discipline, if not a little learning?

Homework does not necessarily equate to learning. Nor is that type of self-discipline necessarily a good thing.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Leros

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I can't believe all the people in this thread who say homework is useless. What is wrong with you people!? How bout a little self discipline, if not a little learning?

I don't think it's useless for everyone. It was certainly useless for me, thus I didn't do it except in the one class where you had to turn in every single assignment to pass. As I saw it, the main purpose of homework was to ensure the students were able to learn and apply the material. I was able to do this without the aid of homework, so I wasted my time on other pursuits. Fortunately my mother agreed that if I was getting As on the tests and not failing classes, I must be learning, and that was the point of going to school.

Later on I learned that homework was also to prepare you for reams of pointless paperwork you'd have to fill out in your adult life.

Even if homework is worthless to some students, it prepares them for the worthless work they will have to do later on in life. I hear engineers complaining about all the pointless non-engineering work they have to do. So, better get used to doing stuff you don't think you need at a younger age.

That's just brainwashing people to fail, or at best be average useless cogs. There's no reason people should have to do those things later in life, any more than they should have to do them in school. Life is what you choose to make it. Anything that teaches acclimation and constraint is working in a negative direction.

 

[mooglemania85]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: maxster
Make sense.

The whole A-F thing is obsolete anyways. Schools are just sticking with it out of tradition.

What do you propose?

The agoge.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
While I don't agree with this system, there does need to be a major reform in play. If they instituted a test out policy it would go a long way for me. Anyone who can get above an 80% on well designed tests simply has no reason to do or hand in homework. For those that can't get that grade without practice, the homework could make up for it.

Acing a test does not = competence. Anyone can be a good test taker.


Remember though, the public schools are so filthy it doesn't really matter what how or what we teach.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
While I don't agree with this system, there does need to be a major reform in play. If they instituted a test out policy it would go a long way for me. Anyone who can get above an 80% on well designed tests simply has no reason to do or hand in homework. For those that can't get that grade without practice, the homework could make up for it.

Acing a test does not = competence. Anyone can be a good test taker.


Remember though, the public schools are so filthy it doesn't really matter what how or what we teach.

That's why I qualified it as 'well designed tests'. There is NOTHING you can teach through homework that can't be tested for properly. Just takes a bit of time and broader thinking than a scantron sheet. Now, there are benefits to class other than what can be tested for, but then those things are beyond the scope of this discussion on homework.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Leros

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I can't believe all the people in this thread who say homework is useless. What is wrong with you people!? How bout a little self discipline, if not a little learning?

I don't think it's useless for everyone. It was certainly useless for me, thus I didn't do it except in the one class where you had to turn in every single assignment to pass. As I saw it, the main purpose of homework was to ensure the students were able to learn and apply the material. I was able to do this without the aid of homework, so I wasted my time on other pursuits. Fortunately my mother agreed that if I was getting As on the tests and not failing classes, I must be learning, and that was the point of going to school.

Later on I learned that homework was also to prepare you for reams of pointless paperwork you'd have to fill out in your adult life.

Even if homework is worthless to some students, it prepares them for the worthless work they will have to do later on in life. I hear engineers complaining about all the pointless non-engineering work they have to do. So, better get used to doing stuff you don't think you need at a younger age.

That's just brainwashing people to fail, or at best be average useless cogs. There's no reason people should have to do those things later in life, any more than they should have to do them in school. Life is what you choose to make it. Anything that teaches acclimation and constraint is working in a negative direction.

The way I see it, it's more like you're there and you're stuck there so you might as well do it and do it well instead of being a bitch and whining about homework. I find that the kids who whine the most about homework in college tend to do the worst. If it wasn't for the damn curve they'd be getting D's. Nowadays, D's get turned into B's. It's complete garbage.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: hanoverphist

actually, im pretty strict about school and homework. their grades show it, all 3 kids get good marks. they all have to finish homework before dinner, and we talk regularly about their classwork to make sure they are doing ok. we have talks about cheating often, since theres always one or two in their classes that get caught doing it. im hoping they never get the real urge or feeling the need to cheat to get by, but i guess anything is possible. i did think it was harsh they have had 2-3 hours a night of homework in 5th and 7th grade, but they do it. i never told them i thought it was harsh, i just told them it was the foundation for their future learning, and they needed to get used to doing it now, so it wasnt so hard to get a handle on later on in life.

This is exactly what I plan to do once my kid is old enough to start getting homework. It is the best choice for a parent to make given the current system we need to work with.

Originally posted by: hanoverphist
Why not just make homework only count if you hand it in, otherwise your grade is completely from tests?

The problem with this idea is that there are many kids who start off not being responsible enough to do their homework unless there are direct consequences for not doing it that they can understand. Later in life, many of these same kids are doing all of their homework because they recognize that they need to do it in order to make good grades on their tests and pass their classes. You can't blame them for not understanding at first. They start getting homework at the age of 5 after all.

I believe that if your idea were to become a standard then you would find that many of these kids who start off not understanding this stuff would end up failing many of their classes later even if realize the importance of homework since they will already be too far behind. Expecting them to understand the need to complete a task that they would prefer not to do over playing video games is too much to ask of kids at such a young age. They need a more defined path to follow at first.

Keep in mind that this would not be the case for all kids, but it would effect enough of them to a point that this country does not want to reach. Not to mention that too many parents do not involve themselves with their kid's school work nearly as much as you do. Don't rely on them. Those kids may not be yours but their upbringing will effect your life if too many of them fail.

 

[manowar821]

Homework taught me nothing. Hell, you can even write a paper in class... That's what I did. I also did all my homework IN class. Then again, everything in school came easily for me, except for speaking in-front of class. I never took a homework assignment home, after 7th grade. I think the only things I took home with me were science text-books, because I enjoyed reading them when I wasn't busy with friends or family.

Yeah, I'm a weird one, alright. However, Homework = Busy-work... I have no doubt in my mind about that. I watched idiot after idiot absolutely cram and ace their homework (though it took them all night, they claimed), but then failed the tests because they didn't actually understand much of anything (this also worked the other way around for some people, tests don't exactly prove much, in actuality). Homework doesn't teach you anything.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Homework taught me nothing. Hell, you can even write a paper in class... That's what I did. I also did all my homework IN class. Then again, everything in school came easily for me, except for speaking in-front of class. I never took a homework assignment home, after 7th grade. I think the only things I took home with me were science text-books, because I enjoyed reading them when I wasn't busy with friends or family.

Yeah, I'm a weird one, alright. However, Homework = Busy-work... I have no doubt in my mind about that. I watched idiot after idiot absolutely cram and ace their homework (though it took them all night, they claimed), but then failed the tests because they didn't actually understand much of anything (this also worked the other way around for some people, tests don't exactly prove much, in actuality). Homework doesn't teach you anything.

Homework is supposed to reinforce what you learn. You don't learn from homework. You learn from class and from the textbook. Homework can provide helpful hints and also give you an idea what the main ideas behind each topic are. People who cram homework and fail tests aren't learning effectively. Learning not only takes a serious attitude, but once you get serious, you have to develop your own strategies and that all boils down trial and error (and what you know about yourself).

 

[MyThirdEye]

That's less than an hour away from me. Total garbage.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Homework taught me nothing. Hell, you can even write a paper in class... That's what I did. I also did all my homework IN class. Then again, everything in school came easily for me, except for speaking in-front of class. I never took a homework assignment home, after 7th grade. I think the only things I took home with me were science text-books, because I enjoyed reading them when I wasn't busy with friends or family.

Yeah, I'm a weird one, alright. However, Homework = Busy-work... I have no doubt in my mind about that. I watched idiot after idiot absolutely cram and ace their homework (though it took them all night, they claimed), but then failed the tests because they didn't actually understand much of anything (this also worked the other way around for some people, tests don't exactly prove much, in actuality). Homework doesn't teach you anything.

Understand that too much homework is being given out these days to complete it in class. That plus you should already understand that everyone learns differently and homework has proven to help a lot of kids so to state that homework doesn't teach you anything is ridiculously closed minded. There is a reason why the kids who do there homework are also the ones who score higher marks on tests and the ones who do not do it fail the class more often. I realize that is not an absolute. There are exceptions, but there are not enough. Besides, doing well in America has a lot to do with working with the system in ways so that the system will end up benefiting you the most. Doing homework, even if it happens to not help much in some cases, is a comparable example to teach this lesson.

Unfortunately, the grading system is only the most accurate for the students who happen to learn the most using the techniques that the majority of other students benefit from. You being a case where homework didn't do much is a good example. This often leaves the students who performs at their best differently little choice but that also greatly depends on how flexible and open minded the teacher is.

 

[videogames101]

god damnit, a 0 is a 0, failing for 4 eeks measn they don't get the course, they don't deserve to pass, wtf...

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: videogames101
god damnit, a 0 is a 0, failing for 4 eeks measn they don't get the course, they don't deserve to pass, wtf...

If the student proves that they have worked hard to learn the previous 4 weeks worth of material while keeping up with the remaining material by scoring very high marks on a midterm/final exam then do they deserve to fail or receive a low passing grade? This is why things like finals and midterms in college count for so much of your grade. I'm not saying that these kids deserve A's but I feel that a high C to a mid B should at least be feasible in these scenarios.

 

[Eeezee]

Better idea: don't collect homework, keep the 0-60 = F scale on exams. Now you have to completely miss the exam to get a zero, and no one could possibly have sympathy for you if you do that.

Completing the tests is sufficient to demonstrate understanding of the material provided the tests are designed correctly - testing a list of dates on a history test is a poorly designed test, writing an essay in regard to the impact of a historical event requires understanding of the event. The same can be applied to any subject, especially mathematics and physics (you can't memorize EVERY possible situation, you need to know how to actually solve the problems and that requires you to do the reading and the homework). The only subject I can think of where hardcore cramming might do the trick is if you have a test on chemical formulas. There are problably several others I'm missing, but from my point of view cramming for a test in most courses won't help you at all.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
Better idea: don't collect homework, keep the 0-60 = F scale on exams. Now you have to completely miss the exam to get a zero, and no one could possibly have sympathy for you if you do that.

Completing the tests is sufficient to demonstrate understanding of the material provided the tests are designed correctly - testing a list of dates on a history test is a poorly designed test, writing an essay in regard to the impact of a historical event requires understanding of the event. The same can be applied to any subject, especially mathematics and physics (you can't memorize EVERY possible situation, you need to know how to actually solve the problems and that requires you to do the reading and the homework). The only subject I can think of where hardcore cramming might do the trick is if you have a test on chemical formulas. There are problably several others I'm missing, but from my point of view cramming for a test in most courses won't help you at all.

I agree with that statement for the most part. However, I believe that the final result if that system were to be put in place would be more kids with lower grades, falling behind year after year, and just being generally dumber. People, including kids, need a lot of motivation to do something that they really do not want to do such as studying and learning academics. That motivation often needs to be tied with enforcement and negative consequences if they do not do it. They also need guidance on how to do it properly. It's the same with adults. Do you believe that the laws we have in place now would be followed just as much if no one enforced them? Of course not. People would do whatever they want. Kids are the same way. They don't want to study. They want to play and have fun.

The bottom line here is that grading homework goes way beyond evaluating a student's performance. It is a way to make them study the material at a steady pace which has proven to result in better grades.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: Kev

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: Kadarin
Seriously, who comes up with this new age "self-esteem is precious" crap? That person (or people) should be taken out back and shot.

no doubt.

The "everyone is a winner" mentality is what is making quality workers harder to find, IMHO. This is going to make students think that they can get by without doing the work and in the real world that will get you a ticket to the unemployment line. If the goal is to make more people finish high school with a diploma then the problem is that administrators don't understand the old analogy "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

Originally posted by: loki8481
always hated most homework.

I never understood why I should be screwed for not doing busywork when I was able to show clear knowledge and understanding of facts/concepts on tests and papers.

I'm in the exact same boat it took me until I hit the real world to realize that while I could screw around forever and hit the jackpot by doing my projects last minute, the finer details along the way are there to prevent mistakes in the end. Tests are... fallible... in that most teachers create tests that must be completed in a 35-45 minute span and cover the brief overview of the subject. Acing is a test doesn't show that you know all of the material perfectly, it shows that you know a sample of the material, and oftentimes teachers regurgitate the exact questions they are going to put on the test time and time again before you take it.

The purpose of homework is to cover a more broad range of material through menial daily work in smaller chunks. Additionally, high school is preparation for the real world, and it's often the menial tasks and details that matter to people... people that pay you to know it.

Even if you don't agree about that, I'm certain you can at least agree that if you equate the situation to the workplace, few customers will give you an assignment and expect to not hear from you until the project is 100% complete.

With homework you can look up all the answers, with a test you can not. If you don't need constant repetition to learn a subject, it is a waste of time.

Yes, but the point isn't where you get the answers, the point is that you LEARN the answers. Your statement comes across as implying that the material is unimportant because you can look it up, which I think is wrong. If it's worth putting in the book, it's worth knowing.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: mugs
At my school you couldn't get ANY grade for a class unless you had completed all course work. You'd get an incomplete. If you missed an assignment you still had to complete it, get a 0 on it, and then you were allowed to pass or fail the class.

I like this system.
In the workforce if you do something poorly you will screw up your reviews and have a difficult time getting promoted.
But if you just plain dont do something, you will likely be fired.

I dont think American school kids should be allowed to just skip work altogether. You should get a 0 and it should screw up your average. Thats what you deserve.
And if you dont learn your lesson you should be forced to do summer school until you have the credits needed to graduate.

This is one more item in the laundry list of things which force schools to hand out diplomas like toilet paper.

 

[BigDH01]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
:laugh:
I live just a few miles from there (in Nebraska) and at my kids' school, anything under a 70 is failing.
This won't do much to help Council Bluffs' image as "Counciltucky"

I went to one of the schools mentioned in the article, Abraham Lincoln. I graduated in 2001 and got the heck out. At the time, I don't think AL was too bad. I've heard that drug use had really gotten bad after I left, however. I believe they were also chronically short of money so this is probably just a way to get everyone graduated on-time.

You are right though, most of CB is "Council Tucky."

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Leros

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I can't believe all the people in this thread who say homework is useless. What is wrong with you people!? How bout a little self discipline, if not a little learning?

I don't think it's useless for everyone. It was certainly useless for me, thus I didn't do it except in the one class where you had to turn in every single assignment to pass. As I saw it, the main purpose of homework was to ensure the students were able to learn and apply the material. I was able to do this without the aid of homework, so I wasted my time on other pursuits. Fortunately my mother agreed that if I was getting As on the tests and not failing classes, I must be learning, and that was the point of going to school.

Later on I learned that homework was also to prepare you for reams of pointless paperwork you'd have to fill out in your adult life.

Even if homework is worthless to some students, it prepares them for the worthless work they will have to do later on in life. I hear engineers complaining about all the pointless non-engineering work they have to do. So, better get used to doing stuff you don't think you need at a younger age.

That's just brainwashing people to fail, or at best be average useless cogs. There's no reason people should have to do those things later in life, any more than they should have to do them in school. Life is what you choose to make it. Anything that teaches acclimation and constraint is working in a negative direction.

The way I see it, it's more like you're there and you're stuck there so you might as well do it and do it well instead of being a bitch and whining about homework. I find that the kids who whine the most about homework in college tend to do the worst. If it wasn't for the damn curve they'd be getting D's. Nowadays, D's get turned into B's. It's complete garbage.

In my experience that hasn't held true. Many people complain about 'homework' because it's busy work that is only useful if you are having trouble learning the material. Once you know the material, homework about it is pretty much useless.

For me it's mostly about just being rational. If something doesn't actively contribute to the learning process for some portion of students then there should be an alternative.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

In my experience that hasn't held true. Many people complain about 'homework' because it's busy work that is only useful if you are having trouble learning the material. Once you know the material, homework about it is pretty much useless.

For me it's mostly about just being rational. If something doesn't actively contribute to the learning process for some portion of students then there should be an alternative.

Repetitive learning often means that more material is retained for longer periods of time. The material that these kids are taught needs to be retained year after year in order to progress. I agree that the line needs to be drawn somewhere and there is such a thing as "too much". I would also agree that there are more teachers than there should be who cross this line, but it is also important to understand the idea behind repetitive learning and the fruits that come with the labor.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: paulxcook
This country is being run so hard into the ground I have to wonder if it's somehow organized. Our children and grandchildren are going to be so stupid and dependent on the system they won't be able to get out of bed in the morning without help.

It really does make you wonder. Why are they trying to coddle the kids so much now. No Child Left Behind is a horrible concept and all it achieves is dragging everyone else down to the level of the dumbest kid in the class.

There is a belief that everyone should be given the same chances and opportunities in life, but the truth is you are not given the chances, you take them. As in, it is your personal responsibility to go out and make something of yourself.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: paulxcook
This country is being run so hard into the ground I have to wonder if it's somehow organized. Our children and grandchildren are going to be so stupid and dependent on the system they won't be able to get out of bed in the morning without help.

It really does make you wonder. Why are they trying to coddle the kids so much now. No Child Left Behind is a horrible concept and all it achieves is dragging everyone else down to the level of the dumbest kid in the class.

There is a belief that everyone should be given the same chances and opportunities in life, but the truth is you are not given the chances, you take them. As in, it is your personal responsibility to go out and make something of yourself.

so true it hurts.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

In my experience that hasn't held true. Many people complain about 'homework' because it's busy work that is only useful if you are having trouble learning the material. Once you know the material, homework about it is pretty much useless.

For me it's mostly about just being rational. If something doesn't actively contribute to the learning process for some portion of students then there should be an alternative.

Repetitive learning often means that more material is retained for longer periods of time. The material that these kids are taught needs to be retained year after year in order to progress. I agree that the line needs to be drawn somewhere and there is such a thing as "too much". I would also agree that there are more teachers than there should be who cross this line, but it is also important to understand the idea behind repetitive learning and the fruits that come with the labor.

I totally agree with that, but it's not useful to kids that already really know it...and this happens more often than you'd think. If someone comes into a class and is able to ace a well constructed test on the subject without any homework practice then that student already fully grasps the concepts and further repetitive learning merely leads to disinterest and frustration. You have to teach to the level of the student, not ask the students to come down to the least common denominator in their age group.

By all means, have homework to help teach those that need it, and reinforce ideas through repetitive learning where necessary. All I want is an option for those that aren't being helped by it.